Burning heretics

[timothyu]

When Jesus returns will He not return in blazing fire, and will He not destroy the heretics?

Exactly. His will be done, not ours. Man is too prone to kill for different reasons and hope no one notices. The least trustworthy are those trying to maintain power or in defence of an institution that is their path to power and wealth, be it secular or church..

 

[durangodawood]

I agree. However, that doesn't mean my approval of it would somehow make it right. Humans, throughout history, have approved of many horrendous things. Their approval of those things didn't make those things morally good. John Calvin thought that Michael Servetus should be burned at the stake. We can consider his context in trying to understand why he thought that was a good thing. But, whether it was good or not has nothing to do with Calvin's approval of it.

I should probably be forthcoming here and say I am assuming there are some moral absolutes. For instance, I would argue that it is always wrong to torture the innocent. Someone might, by mistake, torture an innocent person because they thought that innocent person was guilty (maybe they thought that person was a terrorist who had information that would lead to the harm of others). Okay, we have a reason for why they tortured the innocent. That reason still doesn't make it good or right. Was it a mistake? Sure. Was it good and right? No.

I'm not sure about moral absolutes. If burning heretics is an absolute "bad", then why didnt humans get that by the 13th c? I mean humans had been around for thousands and thousands of years (at least) by that time. Plenty of time to appreciate a timeless absolute of morality, I'd think.

 

[timothyu]

Plenty of time to appreciate a timeless absolute of morality, I'd think.

The people have little problem taking that path, especially the oppressed. It is the endless line of greedy in minority that seek power and gain at the expense of others that will never change as that is the only way they see a way to accomplish such for themselves. To man, control of the masses takes extreme measures.

 

[klutedavid]

It is thought by some that the victims of the inquisitors were the souls of Baals prophets
reincarnated.

Where does it say burning people alive is OK?

Even cremation should be avoided at all costs.

"Burning with fire" purifies?

Is this the 10 o clock news from the abyss?

Funny post.

 

[Redac]

Foxxe disagrees.

Of course he does. Is it your contention that John Foxe was an impartial observer to the religious conflict in England at the time?

Answers in Genesis disagrees.

Fundamentalists agree with Reformation anti-Catholic propaganda? Shocking.

What would you consider a reliable source? I can hunt for my copy of Foxes Book of Martyrs and get a few names of men burnt at the stake for teh crime of translating Scripture into the vulgar tongue.

The very existence of the Latin Vulgate during a time when Latin was the common tongue would suggest that the Church did not have an issue with vulgar translations. Beyond that, there are a number of extant manuscripts of various pre-Reformation vernacular translations in Italian, French, German, English, and so on. Some were just portions of the text, others were complete Bibles, but the Church certainly didn't suppress all these translations and burn everyone who made them. In fact, some of the men doing early vernacular translations of Scripture are canonized saints.

The problem for the Church was rarely vulgar translations in themselves; it was unauthorized translations introducing error into the text and using it to foment heresy and discord, which tended to spill over into the secular world and get secular rulers involved.

Heck, they used to chain big copies of the Bible to pulpits in the Middle Ages to allow those who could read to come and read it themselves. I don't know what language those would have been in, but the idea that the Church was totally against the common folk reading the Bible is patently false.

EDIT: So does the Christian Science Monitor.

The men who risked all to translate the Bible

Christian Science is about as Christian as Mormonism is. That they would perpetuate myths about the mean ol' Catholic Church persecuting good upright Christians for translating Scripture is entirely unsurprising.

 

[Desk trauma]

Does fire purify or not?

It does not purify living organisms, it destroys them.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There is not a Christian alive today who is not a heretic to some other Christian alive today. So to paraphrase a bishop from long ago "burn them all and let God sort them out".

I don't know about that. To me the term 'heretic' only designates a person who has so misconstrued the central focus and core meaning of the Christian faith they he/she can no longer be seen to hold to and thereby live a specifically Christian life and viewpoint.

 

[public hermit]

I'm not sure about moral absolutes. If burning heretics is an absolute "bad", then why didnt humans get that by the 13th c? I mean humans had been around for thousands and thousands of years (at least) by that time. Plenty of time to appreciate a timeless absolute of morality, I'd think.

I don't think a matter of time is the issue. It's not like everyone before the 13th century was going around burning heretics. Jesus didn't go around executing people because they rejected him. Paul approved of executing "heretics" according to his understanding of Judaism, until he became one.

 

[klutedavid]

It does not purify living organisms, it destroys them.

We are baptized with fire.

Matthew 3:11
As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Is our flesh then dead in that baptism of fire?

Luke 3:16
John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

A baptism of fire.

1 Peter 4:12
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you.

Are we destroyed?

 

[timothyu]

Are we destroyed?

Depends on who might call you a heretical yule log.

 

[klutedavid]

Depends on who might call you a heretical yule log.

As long as the established opinion (doctrine) is valid doctrine, otherwise the pot is calling the kettle black.

 

[timothyu]

Which is more valid... doctrine or scripture?

 

[klutedavid]

Which is more valid... doctrine or scripture?

The apostles teaching and instruction is doctrine (truth statements).

The scripture as a whole has two narrations, one is the history of the nation of Israel. The other narration is the life of Jesus and the early history of the church.

Everyone seems to have doctrine that is different to everyone else.

This is clearly seen for example in the many different interpretations of eschatology.

So if a person uses the scripture, then there are a variety of different interpretations and logically doctrine. At least with the scripture everyone can play the game, we are using the same text. If one uses church tradition to establish doctrine, then one would need to list the canon of the church tradition. In order for other people to understand any conversation with the folk relying on a church tradition.

 

[durangodawood]

I don't think a matter of time is the issue. It's not like everyone before the 13th century was going around burning heretics. Jesus didn't go around executing people because they rejected him. Paul approved of executing "heretics" according to his understanding of Judaism, until he became one.

So why all the back and forth change over time if its absolute. I mean, "absolute" is pretty strong. Should be like 2+2=4.

 

[timothyu]

The apostles teaching and instruction is doctrine (truth statements).

Was Jesus' ?

 

[Desk trauma]

We are baptized with fire.

No, you are not.

 

[klutedavid]

No, you are not.

Yes we are.

 

[klutedavid]

Was Jesus' ?

Insufficient information in the question?

 

[timothyu]

Insufficient information in the question?

Was Jesus' teachings a doctrine?

 

[Desk trauma]

Yes we are.

How long were you in the burn ward afterwards?