Buffy The Vampire Slayer (BTVS)

[Laurel Crowned]

There actually was a Buffy thread a long while back, but it never took off. I'm glad you started this one up. I loved Buffy for the sheer pleasure of watching good vs evil... and all the good kicking butt.

Her sacrastic wit and all the snappy dialogue was really why I watched the show....ok... that, and all the good butt kicking. I liked seeing a strong female hero who didn't run around waiting for a guy to do all the rescuing.

Favorite episodes: Hush (of course); when Buffy first learns she's a slayer; when Buffy's mom died (truly powerful acting); the evil Willow episodes... and... actually there are too many to list.

Least favorite characters: Dawn, the potentials, Warren ( I wrote to WB when he killed his ex-girlfriend), and Tara (the whole Tara/Willow relationship disturbed me).

Overall? Good tv even. It wasn't a christian show so I didn't expect it to have a lot of christian overtones, but I liked the ultimate message: Good will win, evil will not prevail.

 

[SpaceProg]

I like the show (Kinda obvious, I know...) When I can catch it anyway. It comes on too late at night on Sunday for me to watch it unless I don't have to work the following morning. :-/

Ah well, there's always the DVDs worth saving up for. Strangely enough I didn't get into the show until both Buffy AND Angel were canceled and no longer being made.

Boy do I have good timing.

 

[enelya_taralom]

I really enjoyed parts of all the seasons. I think yes, some are forgettable. I loved the episode when Glory had Spike captive and was torchering him, and he said something about her hair and her lopsided butt and she was all self doubting, that was funny. I was torn when Buffy died that season, but I was glad she went out a sacrificing hero. The addiction story lines I found great also. It is odd that some people only think of addiction as drugs or alcohol. When truthfully a person can be addicted to almost anything.

So true, Buffy was definitely addicted to Spike (or at least, she was addicted to how he made her feel).

I really enjoyed that episode with Glory and Spike aswell. The whole Buffy bot was abit disturbing, but that episode did have its humor, and I found the end between Spike and Buffy touching (I think that was the first time we actually see that Spike’s thing for Buffy maybe more than just infatuation, and that he actually does care for her).

I wasn't torn at the end of Season five, simply because the first time I saw it was on the DVDs and I knew there would be a sixth season, but I did cry when I saw Spike's (of all people) reaction to finding her. At the time I thought it would make a good series ending, with her dying on her own terms and for Dawn, but I do like the "potential" ending better (certainly something I never saw coming)- how she can live her life and no longer be alone in her "burden". It was fitting, since the whole series was about her being different from other slayers, with family, friends and trying to live a "normal" life.

One of the story lines on Angel I found moving was what they did with Darla's character.They did her whole background, how she was a prostitute before she met the master, and then became an evil vampire, and eventually turned Angel into the same. They went on their evil, demented killing spree, however when she was carrying Connor she changed. Connor had a soul, so Darla had one temporarily. How she became so repentive of what she had done. She realized that once Connor was born that she would return to her evil state, that she killed herself so that Connor would have a decent chance in the world. I found that very moving. In the whole symbolic way of once we realize how sinful we are we repent and crucify sinful nature (not by literal suicide) for the sake our salvation and wining the lost.

I agree the Darla storyline was amazing!! I was so shocked when she did that; would never of thought way back in season one that Darla would have such a fascinating story ahead of her, and that she’d become one of my fave characters. I also loved the human / vampire storyline with Darla, how she came back as a human and was wrestling with her identity and mortality, and finally came to accept that it was her chance to die like she was supposed to.

SpaceProg, yeah I am kind of the same I have a friend who loved the series, and got season one and two on dvd when they came out. I started watching season two with her and was hooked I think season five or six was airing at the time.

 

[Calmness]

I wasn't torn at the end of Season five, simply because the first time I saw it was on the DVDs and I knew there would be a sixth season, but I did cry when I saw Spike's (of all people) reaction to finding her. At the time I thought it would make a good series ending, with her dying on her own terms and for Dawn, but I do like the "potential" ending better (certainly something I never saw coming)- how she can live her life and no longer be alone in her "burden". It was fitting, since the whole series was about her being different from other slayers, with family, friends and trying to live a "normal" life.






I agree I was well pleased to see her finally see her being able to live a "normal" life also. The only disappointment I had with that episode was that Anya died protecting Andrew.





I agree the Darla storyline was amazing!! I was so shocked when she did that; would never of thought way back in season one that Darla would have such a fascinating story ahead of her, and that she’d become one of my fave characters. I also loved the human / vampire storyline with Darla, how she came back as a human and was wrestling with her identity and mortality, and finally came to accept that it was her chance to die like she was supposed to.



I have often wondered if Darla was originally planned for only the one episode, and then they decided to pick her character back up. She became one of my favorite characters as well for the same reasons.

One of my favorite episodes from season 7 was Conversations with Dead People.

 

[AngelusSax]

just dont find it very christian......

Well if you're looking for overt Christian stuff in a show created by an atheist, good luck in finding it...

But that aside, the writers did do a good job of having subtle hints of religiosity in it, but never going so far as to completely alienate non-Christian viewers. It's one of those shows that, when a Christian message is given (as not all writers of the show are atheist, I believe), you gotta be able to look past the surface and actually analyze it.

I agree I was well pleased to see her finally see her being able to live a "normal" life also. The only disappointment I had with that episode was that Anya died protecting Andrew.

Anya died at the request of Emma Caulfield, the actress who portrayed her. It was so she'd never be asked to come back for Angel the next season, as she wanted to do other stuff. Just so ya know.

I have often wondered if Darla was originally planned for only the one episode, and then they decided to pick her character back up. She became one of my favorite characters as well for the same reasons.

Not sure on Darla, but Spike was originally planned to be killed about halfway through season 2 of Buffy, at the restoration of Drusilla. Joss changed his mind... and we got to see Spike last through even all of Angel.


"Hush" and "Once More, With Feeling," to symmetrically opposite episodes (losing voice, and gaining a singing voice uncontrollably), were probably 2 of the best. That said... nothing beats the season 2 finale, though I do think the season 3 finale came real close, as did season 5. Season 7 was a finale that resolved it very well, and as such wasn't "great" because it had a bit less emotional tension (since there was no dangling string for a new season, duh). It was a good series finale, and the fight was good.

I loved Spike's final line before he died. "I wanna see how it ends."

And Buffy's last line? "Spike."

Season 6... well it was scary, but that was the point. They took everyone to the darkest place they'd ever been, and it was all about relationships. Having Willow turn into the "Big Bad" was a nice metaphor for how some people react badly when life kicks you in the gut. It also set up a wonderfully dramatic and surprise return of Giles, too.

Some have said that in that finale, Xander became a non-God version of Jesus. No he didn't die, and obviously did not save us all from our sins or anything, but it was his humility that saved the world, reaching into Willow's inner self, and not the use of brute force that stopped her. Plus... he was a carpenter at that time. Hmmmm.....

 

[Calmness]

Anya died at the request of Emma Caulfield, the actress who portrayed her. It was so she'd never be asked to come back for Angel the next season, as she wanted to do other stuff. Just so ya know.










Some have said that in that finale, Xander became a non-God version of Jesus. No he didn't die, and obviously did not save us all from our sins or anything, but it was his humility that saved the world, reaching into Willow's inner self, and not the use of brute force that stopped her. Plus... he was a carpenter at that time. Hmmmm.....

Thanks for the Anya info

I didn't think of it that way, however I always appreciated that he used love to reach Willow and nothing else. That is a very interesting take on the episode

 

[Laurel Crowned]

Can SOMEBODY please explain the Glory/Ben thing to me?? Maybe I missed an episode that explained why Glory even had a Ben...'cause I never fully understood that.

 

[Eternal_Flame]

Can SOMEBODY please explain the Glory/Ben thing to me?? Maybe I missed an episode that explained why Glory even had a Ben...'cause I never fully understood that.

You know I never really got the whole Glory and Ben concept either. I think it was some sort of curse or spell that they put on glory. I'm guessing there but I've always wondered.

 

[Calmness]

Can SOMEBODY please explain the Glory/Ben thing to me?? Maybe I missed an episode that explained why Glory even had a Ben...'cause I never fully understood that.

There was a curse/spell on Glory that made her exist inside of Ben. It kept her in a weakend state. She had to feed on people's mind (which caused them to go crazy-like she did to Tara) to maintain her sanity and strength. A part of that spell was also that if anyone seen Ben/Glory change into the other they forgot immediately. This is why when Dawn saw Ben change into Glory she had no memory of it to take back to Buffy.

I hope this helps

 

[enelya_taralom]

Yup, there was a curse on Glory. I can't remember exactly how it was explained, but apart from what has already been said, Glory was supposed to be "trapped" within a human vessel (Ben) and was never supposed to be able to "resurface". She found a way though...

 

[AngelusSax]

Continuing the discussion of Glory/Ben, without being able to add anything (Calmness did a good job explaining) to the spell, let's talk about moral aspects of the resolution of the plot here.

At the end (And this is not presumed to be a Spoiler, as the show's aired a few years ago, and quite a few times since then anyway), when Ben was unconscious (or at least close to it), thanks to Glory's defeat because Buffy sacrificed herself to save the world (I suppose one could make a semi-Jesus-metaphor there, since it was herself and not others she sacrificed to save all mankind), we see Giles suffocate Ben. Not Glory, but Ben. Now, of course Glory resides in Ben, but the question is this:

Does the fact that Glory resides in Ben justify Giles letting a bit of "Ripper" out in him in killing Ben, who is-posession aside-a human? Personally, I say yes. Glory could have tried to use Dawn again later, and endangered many more people. There could've been countless deaths, even a success in the dimensional opening/tear thing, causing a hells-on-earth (The Buffyverse has multiple hells, and heavenly dimensions).

What do you all think? And I know it's "just a TV show", but let's pretend for a moment that it's more. Let's analyze it some.

 

[Laurel Crowned]

There was a curse/spell on Glory that made her exist inside of Ben. It kept her in a weakend state. She had to feed on people's mind (which caused them to go crazy-like she did to Tara) to maintain her sanity and strength. A part of that spell was also that if anyone seen Ben/Glory change into the other they forgot immediately. This is why when Dawn saw Ben change into Glory she had no memory of it to take back to Buffy.

I hope this helps

Thanks for filling in the gap. I've seen that season in reruns and still managed to miss the episode where that was explained.

 

[Calmness]

Thanks for filling in the gap. I've seen that season in reruns and still managed to miss the episode where that was explained.

Your welcome

My answer to AngelusSax's question....

Does the fact that Glory resides in Ben justify Giles letting a bit of "Ripper" out in him in killing Ben, who is-posession aside-a human? Personally, I say yes. Glory could have tried to use Dawn again later, and endangered many more people. There could've been countless deaths, even a success in the dimensional opening/tear thing, causing a hells-on-earth (The Buffyverse has multiple hells, and heavenly dimensions).
I would say that Giles is justified in killing Ben only because if Ben was in the form of Glory, Glory would be able to use her power to defeat Giles. Ben was not able to tap into Glory's power thus Giles was able to kill Ben, where I do not believe that Giles could have killed Glory. If that makes any sense.

Does anyone have a differnt view?

For the semi-Jesus metaphor, I thought the same thing, in a basic symbolic way.

 

[SpaceProg]

I found it interesting now as the "Scooby Gang" grew up, so did the demons they had to fight. The show started out with the evil demons being metaphors for the problems that plague most of us in High School. Then when they went to college, it seemed that a "Whole new world" opened up, showing that they were grown, and then the evil influence was far more outreaching and seemed to be more threatening at the same time.

When Angel branched off, I think that sort of meant that once one matures they have to leave to find their own path in the harsh real world, since Angel seemed far darker than Buffy at times. He was considered the elder however. The adult, even in Buffy, since before he 'came out' inadvertently to her as a vamp, it was believed he was some college kid. The 'College kid" left and made his own way in life... or unlife as the case may have been... .

Or maybe I'm just reading far too much into this and/or have just thought up stuff off the top of my head to say so as to bump this thread.

 

[AngelusSax]

When Angel branched off, I think that sort of meant that once one matures they have to leave to find their own path in the harsh real world, since Angel seemed far darker than Buffy at times.

There's that, and there's also the metaphor of two star-crossed lovers. Angel was mature enough to relize it couldn't work at that time, and rather than see both of them die, he left. Just something else I got out of it.

 

[Heatherondo]

aaah we are at the glory/ben/dawn epis on FX right now......

what i never got was, buffys moms tumor, was it caused by the glory/dawn thing or was it a coincidence?

 

[AngelusSax]

Buffy's mom (Joyce) got the tumor solely by natural means, I believe.


"The Body", where Joyce dies, just goes to show that there are some things Buffy cannot fight... and it makes her really, really mad to realize that. She spends her life fighting the forces of evil, which seeks the death of humans. However, she can do nothing to stop death.

 

[Calmness]

There's that, and there's also the metaphor of two star-crossed lovers. Angel was mature enough to relize it couldn't work at that time, and rather than see both of them die, he left. Just something else I got out of it.

True, but remember that it was Buffy's mom who went to speak to Angel first concerning what future Buffy would have with him. Then Angel made the mature choice to leave.

SpaceProg, I agree things really seemed to change once they entered into college. Thanks for bumping the thread

One of my favorite episodes of Angel is when Connor is suppose to sacrifice an innocent for his and Cordy's baby's birth (which ends up being Jasmine) and Darla comes back to try and talk him out of it. I cannot remember it word for word but my gosh talk about a symbolism of becoming a Christian, choosing good over evil.

 

[AngelusSax]

One of my favorite episodes of Angel is when Connor is suppose to sacrifice an innocent for his and Cordy's baby's birth (which ends up being Jasmine) and Darla comes back to try and talk him out of it. I cannot remember it word for word but my gosh talk about a symbolism of becoming a Christian, choosing good over evil.

Indeed! I also like how Jasmine was loved and adored by all, and she had the power to make everyone bow down to her. And though she was eating people (in secret), and was evil in that regard (though it's supposed to be her motive was world peace), I kinda got a "Revelation" vibe about it.

 

[Calmness]

Indeed! I also like how Jasmine was loved and adored by all, and she had the power to make everyone bow down to her. And though she was eating people (in secret), and was evil in that regard (though it's supposed to be her motive was world peace), I kinda got a "Revelation" vibe about it.

Thanks for pointing that out! I always knew I felt a parallel with Jasmine but couldn't quite put it into words, but it really is a "Revelation" type.