Buffalo police officers suspended

[Ana the Ist]

Nuremberg.
Great city! The castle is a sight to see. So much history. So much culture. I just love to live there.

Nuremberg. There was something else. Something from a few decades ago. I just can't quite remember what it was. Something about Americans, and a trial and "just following orders"...

Gimme a break....they didn't march anyone off to the gas chamber.

You can't honestly argue that you don't want police following orders, can you? You want them to just enforce or ignore whatever laws they feel like?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Just what I said. Maybe. All of the arrested may not be guilty.

I'm not talking about the innocent....but as long as we're on the topic, not every cop shoved that old man either...you still said they should be fired.

 

[MyOwnSockPuppet]

How many (potentially contradictory thoughts) do I have? Let's see

1) Were the Brute Squad the same officers who ignored an unconscious pensioner lying there with a potentially serious looking head wound? If so I'd question their fitness to carry a badge.

2) The "only obeying orders" line from their union spokesmoron kinda fell out of fashion about 70-75 years ago.

3) If the Brute Squad resigned (but only as far as resigning back to being ordinary BPD officers) in the middle of a crisis the phrase "desertion in the face of the enemy" springs to my mind. They badly need a pink slip and the sort of reference that makes the mark of Cain look complimentary.

4) Given their capacity to hospitalize pensioners while equipped with (less-lethal) riot control gear, by being out of the Brute Squad presumably they're now carrying (more lethal) issue sidearms. Does anyone else have an issue with this?

5) Has anyone else noticed that the protests post-Brute Squad are more peaceful than they were with them serving? Does that suggest something?

 

[iluvatar5150]

Lol what? Disbanded? You think they don't train regularly for this stuff? You think they just slap a helmet and shield on a cop and that's it?

I suspect in some cases that may be true....but any major city probably has a dedicated unit that trains for this stuff.

One of the articles I read (which I'm not going to dig up because it really isn't that important) said this Emergency Response Team from which these guys all resigned was created to deal with these particular protests/riots. IOW, it's new; it's not some long-standing division like SWAT. Since it was created for these protests, I assume it wouldn't stick around long after the protests were over.

It's possible what I read was wrong, or that I misunderstood it, or that my assumption about the future of the department is wrong. But that's what I was getting at.

 

[sfs]

One of the articles I read (which I'm not going to dig up because it really isn't that important) said this Emergency Response Team from which these guys all resigned was created to deal with these particular protests/riots. IOW, it's new

I believe it was created post-Ferguson. . . yes, it was created in 2016. So, recent but not that new.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I'm not talking about the innocent....but as long as we're on the topic, not every cop shoved that old man either...you still said they should be fired.

I said/meant if they quit the force to protest the suspension of the two that did push the old man, they imho should be fired.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I believe it was created post-Ferguson. . . yes, it was created in 2016. So, recent but not that new.

Ah, well, if that's the case, then my comments regarding the significance of this can be ignored.

 

[Freodin]

Gimme a break....they didn't march anyone off to the gas chamber.

You can't honestly argue that you don't want police following orders, can you? You want them to just enforce or ignore whatever laws they feel like?

If you really cannot see the difference between "enforcing laws" and "following orders", I cannot help you. And even then, there still the question whether some laws should be enforced

That was the point - and the counterpoint - of the Nuremberg defense.

 

[Yttrium]

1) Were the Brute Squad the same officers who ignored an unconscious pensioner lying there with a potentially serious looking head wound? If so I'd question their fitness to carry a badge.

I listened to the Buffalo mayor on CNN last night. He said that the squad was trained to keep moving forward, leaving any wounded to the medics who were right behind them. The medics did act to help the fallen man.

3) If the Brute Squad resigned (but only as far as resigning back to being ordinary BPD officers) in the middle of a crisis the phrase "desertion in the face of the enemy" springs to my mind. They badly need a pink slip and the sort of reference that makes the mark of Cain look complimentary.

The mayor blames the police union for that, not the squad. The squad apparently was under intense pressure from the union to resign from the detail.

I think the cops should have put common sense over their training, but I can't really blame them for moving forward if they were trained to do so. I blame the training. Even if the training is efficient, it looks bad on camera, and helps to incite the protests.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I listened to the Buffalo mayor on CNN last night. He said that the squad was trained to keep moving forward, leaving any wounded to the medics who were right behind them. The medics did act to help the fallen man.



The mayor blames the police union for that, not the squad. The squad apparently was under intense pressure from the union to resign from the detail.

I think the cops should have put common sense over their training, but I can't really blame them for moving forward if they were trained to do so. I blame the training. Even if the training is efficient, it looks bad on camera, and helps to incite the protests.

The ones I saw stop to help the man were the National guard soldiers in the tan
camouflage carrying the big guns. Chances are these fellows had been overseas in Afganistan, and saw real enemies, as opposed to fellow Americans.

There was a demonstration that got out of hand about 10 years ago where the police were harsh. A soldier started berating them saying they didn't treat the people of Iraq this bad.

 

[variant]

That's fantastic - unfortunately they didn't resign from the police force itself, just the unit, but it's a start.
The more of these cowards we can get to resign the better!

If I were their boss I would fire them. They basically told me they only signed up for the hard work because they thought they could break the rules with impunity and be backed up by the department.

 

[variant]

You can't honestly argue that you don't want police following orders, can you? You want them to just enforce or ignore whatever laws they feel like?

If they were given orders to push elderly men to the ground at the slightest provocation and then ignore when they then had serious injuries, yes I do expect them to disobey that order.

Common human decency springs to mind.

I doubt they were following an order that specified what they were actually fired for. If so, their commanding officer needs to be fired as well.

 

[variant]

The ones I saw stop to help the man were the National guard soldiers in the tan
camouflage carrying the big guns. Chances are these fellows had been overseas in Afganistan, and saw real enemies, as opposed to fellow Americans.

There was a demonstration that got out of hand about 10 years ago where the police were harsh. A soldier started berating them saying they didn't treat the people of Iraq this bad.

Indeed. It's good when those chosen to police don't look around and see enemies rather than people they are pledged to protect and serve.

Troops overseas are usually trying to win over the population rather than brutalize them into submission. It happens to be both the correct strategy and the moral one at the same time.

 

[Ana the Ist]

One of the articles I read (which I'm not going to dig up because it really isn't that important) said this Emergency Response Team from which these guys all resigned was created to deal with these particular protests/riots. IOW, it's new; it's not some long-standing division like SWAT. Since it was created for these protests, I assume it wouldn't stick around long after the protests were over.

It's possible what I read was wrong, or that I misunderstood it, or that my assumption about the future of the department is wrong. But that's what I was getting at.

Fair enough.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If they were given orders to push elderly men to the ground at the slightest provocation and then ignore when they then had serious injuries, yes I do expect them to disobey that order.

Common human decency springs to mind.

I doubt they were following an order that specified what they were actually fired for. If so, their commanding officer needs to be fired as well.

I would imagine the order was something like "if they refuse to disperse, physically move them".

If you really cannot see the difference between "enforcing laws" and "following orders", I cannot help you. And even then, there still the question whether some laws should be enforced

That was the point - and the counterpoint - of the Nuremberg defense.

Again...gimme a break. They aren't shoving people into train cars. We've done enough research on the topic to know that the overwhelmingly, people obey people in positions of perceived authority. That's you, me, and nearly everyone on this forum.

Furthermore, do you honestly think there's a difference between following orders and enforcing the law to a cop? We give lawyers years in school....lots of money....and maybe after years and years of practice ,they're considered experts on some small category of the thousands of laws in the US legal code. A cop doesn't get more than a few months of training on the laws specific to his job.

These cops probably never been in a riot....probably have no idea what the law specifies. They showed up to work...and were told what to do.

 

[Belk]

Gimme a break....they didn't march anyone off to the gas chamber.

You can't honestly argue that you don't want police following orders, can you? You want them to just enforce or ignore whatever laws they feel like?

What was the order they were following? If it was anything like "Leave injured citizens who might require medical attention" then yes, I expect them to disobey it unless there is a contingency plan in place and even then they should stay with the citizen to ensure it is enacted. Why are we so willing to sacrifice the health of our citizens to the will of the state?

 

[Ana the Ist]

What was the order they were following?

I would imagine that the order was something along the lines of "move anyone who refuses to move on their own".

 

[Ana the Ist]

Just out of curiosity....how many people here were super cool with cops enforcing business restrictions, social distancing, mask wearing, etc....just a month or two ago??

Because it's really no different. I guarantee they were just following orders then too....in a situation that none of them had ever been through. Well it's the same thing for a riot. They go out, they do what they're told, and that's about it.

Here's a cop taking a woman to the ground...physically....for not wearing a mask.
Alabama woman without face mask slammed by police officer: viral video

Everyone seemed real comfortable with this sort of stuff about a month ago. I don't remember any outrage from the left then.

 

[Belk]

I would imagine the order was something like "if they refuse to disperse, physically move them".



Again...gimme a break. They aren't shoving people into train cars. We've done enough research on the topic to know that the overwhelmingly, people obey people in positions of perceived authority. That's you, me, and nearly everyone on this forum.

Furthermore, do you honestly think there's a difference between following orders and enforcing the law to a cop? We give lawyers years in school....lots of money....and maybe after years and years of practice ,they're considered experts on some small category of the thousands of laws in the US legal code. A cop doesn't get more than a few months of training on the laws specific to his job.

These cops probably never been in a riot....probably have no idea what the law specifies. They showed up to work...and were told what to do.

I thought this unit was formed specifically to deal with riots?

 

[Belk]

I would imagine that the order was something along the lines of "move anyone who refuses to move on their own".

I do not see that encompassing "Leave injured citizen on the ground".