buddhism,christianity,conversion (Long)

[Catherineanne]

Hi all. I was baptized and raised in the Lutheran church. I stopped attending church around 14 years old when I decided to (try to) become atheist. After about 14 years, psychological crises, and the death of a couple loved ones, I began seeking answers to questions that were arising on spiritual and psychological matters. This led me to begin practicing Buddhist meditation at a local meditation center. The center was founded by a Tibetan teacher who presented meditation material in a secular way, specifically for Western students. The beginning teachings appear free from religious trappings, but as you continue along the path there is more and more Buddhist material involved. For a couple of years my study of Buddhism and practice of meditation fulfilled me on some level, to the point where I felt I was ready to officially take refuge. (this is the formal commitment to the Buddhist path, including refuge in the Buddha as example, dharma as teaching, sangha as faith community) I was on a month long retreat where I took refuge, and yet at the same time felt myself called back to Christianity. I was reading a book by Thomas Merton on the monastic life while on retreat. I asked my preceptor if Buddhists could believe in God, and he said it's more likely one can be agnostic. Since that's how I felt at the time, I took refuge and continued on..

Much has been changing in my life since. I soon felt disenchanted with Buddhism, and felt I shouldn't have taken the vows for reasons both related and unrelated to Christianity. For one, I have had problems with the idea of emptiness - understanding how love can be part of the ultimate reality in the total absence of a loving God. In fact, I remember reading Merton lines "For the world and time are the dance of the Lord in emptiness. The silence of the spheres is the music of a wedding feast." So there is this problem in being a Buddhist - that I keep seeking, or sensing, God. If there is a God, I feel I must know Him - I can not ignore that call. Finally, I kept seeing the faults of Western Buddhists. Many looking to adapt Buddhism to fit their own ideas of the perfect (read: permissive) religion, where everything goes and we all get our (liberal) beliefs affirmed. I recently visited Nepal and stayed for two and a half months in both Hindu and Buddhist villages (including a monastery). It is a very conservative culture. It became apparent to me that many Westerners are picking and choosing what they like of (Tibetan, vajrayana) Buddhism and ignoring the rest. (ie, prohibitions on homosexuality, abortion, cultural conservatism on gender roles, and so on) At one time I too thought that Buddhism was the religion where everything that lined up with my (then) social+political views was happening. It's not. I had thought about looking into more conservative Theravedan practice, but ultimately, I feel like this culture and teachings are best appreciated from the outside, and that while there is wisdom, it is not the Truth.

I ended up in a church incidentally (doing a labyrinth walk, something more new-agey than Christian, likely) and felt a strong pull to continue coming back. So I would find myself sitting in the sanctuary, or in the prayer and meditation room, and always moved deeply in my heart, to tears, never wanting to leave. There was a baptismal font set up asking one to touch the water to ones head and remember they are a child of God. As I did this, I began to let go of so many tears. I couldn't believe that God might have me back, that I might be loved, and part of this body.. I have attended Church services now the past 3 weeks. I have many questions about this Presbyterian church, it is very liberal and feels a bit like the Western approach to Buddhism... But for now I am happy to have a church down the street to go to and to begin to learn again. I do not know if I would want to enter into a protestant denomination or not, I am only now understanding sola scriptura, etc. I have read a great deal on Orthodox Christianity (including Christ the Eternal Tao, which made me feel my time studying Eastern religion was not lost) and am deeply attracted, but again, I am mostly focusing on my relationship to God and Christ and I don't even own a bible yet (it will be here tomorrow), so... first things first. And here I am on CF...

I am wondering if, because I took Buddhist refuge vows, I would need to be reconciled to the church in some way. (I know I will need to repent.) I would not feel right to take communion in a Lutheran church with my mother because of this. I am not sure what is best to do right now, because I am so hungry to learn and be at church, to talk to Christians, to study, to pray, and so on.. I still have a great deal of unravelling to do in my life (I have a leadership position of sorts in this sangha, which is another story entirely, and I will need to figure out what to do as far as my involvement here. Although some may say I can still be involved, I don't feel it is right. Either way, I am incredibly shy and reserved and it took a long time to belong here, so letting it crumble is hard.) and God has called me at a very inconvenient time, but I am ready to do anything... if you would have any advice on books to read on the church where I could begin to answer my denominational/theological questions, if you would know anything about conversion, in general, I would greatly appreciate your words.

S.

We cannot run away from the Lord and leave him behind. He has been with you every step of the way, gently guiding your path towards home. Don't regard this time as a mistake or a sin; you were seeking the truth, and that is not a sin for anyone. This has been part of your pilgrimage of faith and I have no doubt the Lord will use your knowledge to further his Kingdom in time.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+139&version=NKJV

 

[sparkle123]

Go to the ELCA or the Presbyterian church you are currently visiting. The ELCA or Presbyterians are not going to guilt-trip you about your Buddhist past for the most part.

I practiced Buddhism in the past. You are correct that many western Buddhists pick and choose a lot what they will believe. That's the main issue I had with practicing Buddhism in the west. I did a lot of meditation, took refuge in the Buddha and the bodhisattva vows. In the end I came to practicing Shin Buddhism because I wanted a Buddhist tradition steeped in authentic spirituality, but realized without a temple nearby it was not very practicable.

On the social issues you bring up... a lot of churches and religious groups are struggling through those issues. Fundamentalist Christianity (aka "evangelicalism") might be a tempting answer but its not very responsible intellectually or ethically. I'm urging you to not discount a church simply because it is "liberal" or "compromising". In the same way you approached Buddhism with an open mind, you need to approach mainline Christianity with the same open mind. Beware of people peddling flim-flam narratives of the world that try to explain too much. Christianity is not a metanarrative or a systematic account of the world (it's not a "worldview" to use that term favored by conservative evangelicals), it is a proclamation of faith.
.

Thank you for responding to this post. I was (largely) with a Shambhala center, which felt so terribly secular and psychologized and politicized. Also, I had serious doubts about the integrity of the founder, who you may know something about. I also visited/stayed in a Gelugpa monastery in Nepal, and while it was much more profound, when I came back from Nepal the first thing I wanted to do was go to church. I can't fully explain that, though I have certainly tried.

What brought you back to Christianity and what is your relationship to Buddhism now? As I reflect I see that much of the meditation practice I have done is what led me back to Christian faith and to an awareness of my soul, and the spiritual reality of life. (before I was largely selfish and uncaring about anything but relieving the misery I felt constituted the core of my life) I have had a few experiences of great compassion and love for the world and for others while sitting in attentive silence. They broke me of my feelings of being alone in an uncaring world. I think these experiences are from God, are gifts. I can't discount them. Do I stop sitting in silence because it isn't Christian? I have been going to a centering prayer group and incorporating lectio divina, and more traditional prayer. I understand this is controversial to some, which is disheartening.

This leads me to what you've said about Christianity not being a worldview. I think I have been willing to consider it as a worldview, which is the source of my confusion. I mean, isn't a worldview something we all have, regardless of whether we recognize it or not? Related -- I like the Simone Weil quote on your signature and as I write I have a book with her conversion story bookmarked in front of me. Now I feel I have to read it in full. I have only read the introduction, and she is a relatable person on some levels (I was involved in far left activist circles in my twenties and the anarchist units in the Spanish Civil War were very cool conversation, of course). I imagine she is someone who would take the same stance you have.

And this is to say... I can keep an open mind about the more liberal denominations. Last Sunday I was at Catholic mass, Wednesday I was at Taize service in a very liberal Presbyterian church. I've already wrote enough here, but I do want to thank you for sharing your experience and your take on things. It's a confusing time for me, and this forum is the only place I have to go to talk about my faith. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[sparkle123]

We cannot run away from the Lord and leave him behind. He has been with you every step of the way, gently guiding your path towards home. Don't regard this time as a mistake or a sin; you were seeking the truth, and that is not a sin for anyone. This has been part of your pilgrimage of faith and I have no doubt the Lord will use your knowledge to further his Kingdom in time.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+139&version=NKJV

Catherineanne, thank you for saying this. I had been feeling that I made a big mistake, something to be regretted, but now I am beginning to understand every moment until now as a part of the pilgrimage of faith, as you have said. Thanks.

 

[Catherineanne]

Catherineanne, thank you for saying this. I had been feeling that I made a big mistake, something to be regretted, but now I am beginning to understand every moment until now as a part of the pilgrimage of faith, as you have said. Thanks.

YW.

One day you will know why your path has led this way; perhaps so that you can speak to others of your journey; perhaps only because it was the right path for you. Don't have any regrets; you have found your way home safely now, and you have learned some very important lessons along the way.

God be with you.

 

[FireDragon76]

What brought you back to Christianity and what is your relationship to Buddhism now?

Sometimes the experiences I had in meditation seemed much more explained as God that any kind of other experience- "God language" just seemed to fit it better. We aren't talking hard theism but something more like Unitarianism or Shin Buddhism, a less reified God.

And, I had to confront serious Christian theologians and activists like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther King and what motivated them. It was very different from the sort of quietistic mysticism being advocated by many western Buddhists. There was an ethical call to justice that was lacking.

I'm a non-Buddhist right now, with sympathies and gratitude to some of the lessons I learned, particularly in the need for "heart religion" over the head (amazing since many don't consider Buddhism in that regard). Right now I just consider myself a lapsed Methodist and a "Mere Christian" but I attend ELCA and Episcopalian parishes twice a week, and I've been influenced a lot by reading diverse Christian reading, although much of it not Protestant.

As I reflect I see that much of the meditation practice I have done is what led me back to Christian faith and to an awareness of my soul, and the spiritual reality of life.

Yes, it's very good for that. I believe that is what meditation is largely about in the Buddhist concept as well, spiritual awakening.

Do I stop sitting in silence because it isn't Christian?

No. It's a good discipline. Before I pray or if I feel stressed out, I often just revert to just paying attention to my breathing. I also find sometimes when I observed a period of stillness in prayer, God puts things into my heart, images and words to pray.

I've had experience in the Eastern Orthodox Church (which sadly I had issues with due to pastoral reasons I can't go into here), but its influenced me to a great deal. I believe you would find a lot of similarities with Buddhism. There are also some mainline Protestants and Catholics interested in mystical approaches to Christian faith, though the Protestant tradition has tended towards rationalism for the most part since the 17th century.

I also have engaged in lectio divina. I find this is a good practice. Some Protestants have this habit of coming to God with a laundry list of requests but Lectio Divina can help you to really uncover what's going on below the surface of your mind, the things that God has put on your heart so to speak.

This leads me to what you've said about Christianity not being a worldview. I think I have been willing to consider it as a worldview, which is the source of my confusion. I mean, isn't a worldview something we all have, regardless of whether we recognize it or not?

No, not everybody has a worldview in a systematic way. We have narratives influencing and shaping us, but that's different. A worldview is a metanarrative, a big story to eclipse all other stories, based on an appeal to a universal, autonomous reason. The philosophy of the Enlightenment are good examples of this, the idea that there must be one "rule book" for all aspects of life. That sort of mentality has been exploded by philosophers like Heideggar and Derrida, but some Christians have yet to catch up with it.

The idea of worldview is that its a list of propositions that you either accept or reject, defend apologetically. etc. I've been greatly influenced by reading Dietrich Bonhoeffer on this area, and needless to say Bonhoeffer found that approach to Christianity problematic, because it cheapens and commodifies the Gospel, often with horrific consequences (the Nazi regime for instance utilized the language and structure of Christianity to their own ends). Christianity is a narrative, which means its not primarily informational like a "worldview", but formational, lived out in what Bonhoeffer called "prayer and justice".

If you want to understand what I'm talking about, make your next biblical book you read the Epistle of St. James, particularly the first few chapters.

 

[kit]

oi_antz - I took refuge vows, which is a formal commitment to Buddhism. (taking refuge in the Buddha as example, dharma as path, sangha as community, going for refuge until one has awakened) I have obviously broken those vows by going to church and looking elsewhere for refuge, or salvation.. so I don't know what this makes me, if there is anything needed. I did not make any other vows, such as tantric vows or bodhisattva vows, etc. I was probably held back from going further on that path by conscience..

Lukaris - thank you very much for the information. I felt the conversion stories were particularly helpful and could relate to them both. I am attending an Orthodox service this Sunday.. so yes, thank you.

And Tess - I appreciate your advice. What you are saying is what I feel it is right to do (to disengage). I have some things that I have to finish up with first, like finding a replacement for the role I am filling. Thanks for your encouragement, I really want to be getting involved with church life right now

I visit churches (including Lutheran and Orthodox ones) somewhat regularly. I am not violating any principle of Buddhism by doing so. I still take my refuge in the Buddha, his teachings, and the religion.