buddhism,christianity,conversion (Long)

[sparkle123]

Hi all. I was baptized and raised in the Lutheran church. I stopped attending church around 14 years old when I decided to (try to) become atheist. After about 14 years, psychological crises, and the death of a couple loved ones, I began seeking answers to questions that were arising on spiritual and psychological matters. This led me to begin practicing Buddhist meditation at a local meditation center. The center was founded by a Tibetan teacher who presented meditation material in a secular way, specifically for Western students. The beginning teachings appear free from religious trappings, but as you continue along the path there is more and more Buddhist material involved. For a couple of years my study of Buddhism and practice of meditation fulfilled me on some level, to the point where I felt I was ready to officially take refuge. (this is the formal commitment to the Buddhist path, including refuge in the Buddha as example, dharma as teaching, sangha as faith community) I was on a month long retreat where I took refuge, and yet at the same time felt myself called back to Christianity. I was reading a book by Thomas Merton on the monastic life while on retreat. I asked my preceptor if Buddhists could believe in God, and he said it's more likely one can be agnostic. Since that's how I felt at the time, I took refuge and continued on..

Much has been changing in my life since. I soon felt disenchanted with Buddhism, and felt I shouldn't have taken the vows for reasons both related and unrelated to Christianity. For one, I have had problems with the idea of emptiness - understanding how love can be part of the ultimate reality in the total absence of a loving God. In fact, I remember reading Merton lines "For the world and time are the dance of the Lord in emptiness. The silence of the spheres is the music of a wedding feast." So there is this problem in being a Buddhist - that I keep seeking, or sensing, God. If there is a God, I feel I must know Him - I can not ignore that call. Finally, I kept seeing the faults of Western Buddhists. Many looking to adapt Buddhism to fit their own ideas of the perfect (read: permissive) religion, where everything goes and we all get our (liberal) beliefs affirmed. I recently visited Nepal and stayed for two and a half months in both Hindu and Buddhist villages (including a monastery). It is a very conservative culture. It became apparent to me that many Westerners are picking and choosing what they like of (Tibetan, vajrayana) Buddhism and ignoring the rest. (ie, prohibitions on homosexuality, abortion, cultural conservatism on gender roles, and so on) At one time I too thought that Buddhism was the religion where everything that lined up with my (then) social+political views was happening. It's not. I had thought about looking into more conservative Theravedan practice, but ultimately, I feel like this culture and teachings are best appreciated from the outside, and that while there is wisdom, it is not the Truth.

I ended up in a church incidentally (doing a labyrinth walk, something more new-agey than Christian, likely) and felt a strong pull to continue coming back. So I would find myself sitting in the sanctuary, or in the prayer and meditation room, and always moved deeply in my heart, to tears, never wanting to leave. There was a baptismal font set up asking one to touch the water to ones head and remember they are a child of God. As I did this, I began to let go of so many tears. I couldn't believe that God might have me back, that I might be loved, and part of this body.. I have attended Church services now the past 3 weeks. I have many questions about this Presbyterian church, it is very liberal and feels a bit like the Western approach to Buddhism... But for now I am happy to have a church down the street to go to and to begin to learn again. I do not know if I would want to enter into a protestant denomination or not, I am only now understanding sola scriptura, etc. I have read a great deal on Orthodox Christianity (including Christ the Eternal Tao, which made me feel my time studying Eastern religion was not lost) and am deeply attracted, but again, I am mostly focusing on my relationship to God and Christ and I don't even own a bible yet (it will be here tomorrow), so... first things first. And here I am on CF...

I am wondering if, because I took Buddhist refuge vows, I would need to be reconciled to the church in some way. (I know I will need to repent.) I would not feel right to take communion in a Lutheran church with my mother because of this. I am not sure what is best to do right now, because I am so hungry to learn and be at church, to talk to Christians, to study, to pray, and so on.. I still have a great deal of unravelling to do in my life (I have a leadership position of sorts in this sangha, which is another story entirely, and I will need to figure out what to do as far as my involvement here. Although some may say I can still be involved, I don't feel it is right. Either way, I am incredibly shy and reserved and it took a long time to belong here, so letting it crumble is hard.) and God has called me at a very inconvenient time, but I am ready to do anything... if you would have any advice on books to read on the church where I could begin to answer my denominational/theological questions, if you would know anything about conversion, in general, I would greatly appreciate your words.

S.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi all. I was baptized and raised in the Lutheran church. I stopped attending church around 14 years old when I decided to (try to) become atheist. After about 14 years, psychological crises, and the death of a couple loved ones, I began seeking answers to questions that were arising on spiritual and psychological matters. This led me to begin practicing Buddhist meditation at a local meditation center. The center was founded by a Tibetan teacher who presented meditation material in a secular way, specifically for Western students. The beginning teachings appear free from religious trappings, but as you continue along the path there is more and more Buddhist material involved. For a couple of years my study of Buddhism and practice of meditation fulfilled me on some level, to the point where I felt I was ready to officially take refuge. (this is the formal commitment to the Buddhist path, including refuge in the Buddha as example, dharma as teaching, sangha as faith community) I was on a month long retreat where I took refuge, and yet at the same time felt myself called back to Christianity. I was reading a book by Thomas Merton on the monastic life while on retreat. I asked my preceptor if Buddhists could believe in God, and he said it's more likely one can be agnostic. Since that's how I felt at the time, I took refuge and continued on..

Much has been changing in my life since. I soon felt disenchanted with Buddhism, and felt I shouldn't have taken the vows for reasons both related and unrelated to Christianity. For one, I have had problems with the idea of emptiness - understanding how love can be part of the ultimate reality in the total absence of a loving God. In fact, I remember reading Merton lines "For the world and time are the dance of the Lord in emptiness. The silence of the spheres is the music of a wedding feast." So there is this problem in being a Buddhist - that I keep seeking, or sensing, God. If there is a God, I feel I must know Him - I can not ignore that call. Finally, I kept seeing the faults of Western Buddhists. Many looking to adapt Buddhism to fit their own ideas of the perfect (read: permissive) religion, where everything goes and we all get our (liberal) beliefs affirmed. I recently visited Nepal and stayed for two and a half months in both Hindu and Buddhist villages (including a monastery). It is a very conservative culture. It became apparent to me that many Westerners are picking and choosing what they like of (Tibetan, vajrayana) Buddhism and ignoring the rest. (ie, prohibitions on homosexuality, abortion, cultural conservatism on gender roles, and so on) At one time I too thought that Buddhism was the religion where everything that lined up with my (then) social+political views was happening. It's not. I had thought about looking into more conservative Theravedan practice, but ultimately, I feel like this culture and teachings are best appreciated from the outside, and that while there is wisdom, it is not the Truth.

I ended up in a church incidentally (doing a labyrinth walk, something more new-agey than Christian, likely) and felt a strong pull to continue coming back. So I would find myself sitting in the sanctuary, or in the prayer and meditation room, and always moved deeply in my heart, to tears, never wanting to leave. There was a baptismal font set up asking one to touch the water to ones head and remember they are a child of God. As I did this, I began to let go of so many tears. I couldn't believe that God might have me back, that I might be loved, and part of this body.. I have attended Church services now the past 3 weeks. I have many questions about this Presbyterian church, it is very liberal and feels a bit like the Western approach to Buddhism... But for now I am happy to have a church down the street to go to and to begin to learn again. I do not know if I would want to enter into a protestant denomination or not, I am only now understanding sola scriptura, etc. I have read a great deal on Orthodox Christianity (including Christ the Eternal Tao, which made me feel my time studying Eastern religion was not lost) and am deeply attracted, but again, I am mostly focusing on my relationship to God and Christ and I don't even own a bible yet (it will be here tomorrow), so... first things first. And here I am on CF...

I am wondering if, because I took Buddhist refuge vows, I would need to be reconciled to the church in some way. (I know I will need to repent.) I would not feel right to take communion in a Lutheran church with my mother because of this. I am not sure what is best to do right now, because I am so hungry to learn and be at church, to talk to Christians, to study, to pray, and so on.. I still have a great deal of unravelling to do in my life (I have a leadership position of sorts in this sangha, which is another story entirely, and I will need to figure out what to do as far as my involvement here. Although some may say I can still be involved, I don't feel it is right. Either way, I am incredibly shy and reserved and it took a long time to belong here, so letting it crumble is hard.) and God has called me at a very inconvenient time, but I am ready to do anything... if you would have any advice on books to read on the church where I could begin to answer my denominational/theological questions, if you would know anything about conversion, in general, I would greatly appreciate your words.

S.

Hi, this is an interesting situation. Are you comfortable to share the vows you have taken that you feel might complicate your commitment to Jesus Christ? I think that is probably central to your struggle, and if we don't understand what you have vowed then we won't really understand why you are struggling.

 

[Lukaris]

Here is a link to questions & answers re conversion to Orthodox Christianity from Buddhism:

https://oca.org/questions/otherconfessions/buddhism-and-conversion-to-orthodoxy

Here is a personal account from an Asian former Buddhist:

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2011/01/11/from-the-buddha-to-christ/

An American former Buddhist:

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/...om-tibetan-buddhism-to-orthodox-christianity/

I have also sent a message to a frequent Lutheran poster who can probably help you if you still might consider the Lutheran Church.

 

[Tess]

Hi there,

Of course we don't fully understand your situation, but it sounds to me like you should try and disengage with your old movement as quickly and politely you can, and get stuck into church life!

I'm sure there will be some issues for you to work out, but you can do those along the way. I think the best thing is to find a church and just keep going, get stuck into the Bible; it will all come together.

Good luck!

 

[sparkle123]

oi_antz - I took refuge vows, which is a formal commitment to Buddhism. (taking refuge in the Buddha as example, dharma as path, sangha as community, going for refuge until one has awakened) I have obviously broken those vows by going to church and looking elsewhere for refuge, or salvation.. so I don't know what this makes me, if there is anything needed. I did not make any other vows, such as tantric vows or bodhisattva vows, etc. I was probably held back from going further on that path by conscience..

Lukaris - thank you very much for the information. I felt the conversion stories were particularly helpful and could relate to them both. I am attending an Orthodox service this Sunday.. so yes, thank you.

And Tess - I appreciate your advice. What you are saying is what I feel it is right to do (to disengage). I have some things that I have to finish up with first, like finding a replacement for the role I am filling. Thanks for your encouragement, I really want to be getting involved with church life right now

 

[oi_antz]

oi_antz - I took refuge vows, which is a formal commitment to Buddhism. (taking refuge in the Buddha as example, dharma as path, sangha as community, going for refuge until one has awakened) I have obviously broken those vows by going to church and looking elsewhere for refuge, or salvation.. so I don't know what this makes me, if there is anything needed. I did not make any other vows, such as tantric vows or bodhisattva vows, etc. I was probably held back from going further on that path by conscience..

Lukaris - thank you very much for the information. I felt the conversion stories were particularly helpful and could relate to them both. I am attending an Orthodox service this Sunday.. so yes, thank you.

And Tess - I appreciate your advice. What you are saying is what I feel it is right to do (to disengage). I have some things that I have to finish up with first, like finding a replacement for the role I am filling. Thanks for your encouragement, I really want to be getting involved with church life right now

Ok, thanks, I don't know what that means but since you have been immersed in the culture that does, I understand it will mean something significant to you. Are you afraid of losing something as you go back on the vows you have taken? Maybe it is reputation or some friendships or blessings from people you have come to love? Are you afraid of some sort of spiritual consequence? Maybe you aren't really afraid at all, but unsure if it is a good thing to be doing and maybe testing the nature of the reception you might get from the community you are reaching into.. well my feeling is that it would be interesting to see your development and the fusion of your understandings. Please stay active on this website and share yourself with others here, I am certain many people will benefit from your views.

 

[sparkle123]

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I am afraid of losing friendships and the community of people I knew before. I don't expect anyone will be excited that I am returning to Christianity. My husband is not very happy at the moment, even though he supports me. As I open more to the belief that Christ is the risen Lord, I feel less and less good about taking refuge anywhere else. I wonder about the spiritual consequences of that and many other decisions I have made in my life. I suppose this is where the work of repentance will factor in. So things are not easy now, but I do believe it will be worth the current difficulty. Thanks again.

 

[ViaCrucis]

oi_antz - I took refuge vows, which is a formal commitment to Buddhism. (taking refuge in the Buddha as example, dharma as path, sangha as community, going for refuge until one has awakened) I have obviously broken those vows by going to church and looking elsewhere for refuge, or salvation.. so I don't know what this makes me, if there is anything needed. I did not make any other vows, such as tantric vows or bodhisattva vows, etc. I was probably held back from going further on that path by conscience..

Lukaris - thank you very much for the information. I felt the conversion stories were particularly helpful and could relate to them both. I am attending an Orthodox service this Sunday.. so yes, thank you.

And Tess - I appreciate your advice. What you are saying is what I feel it is right to do (to disengage). I have some things that I have to finish up with first, like finding a replacement for the role I am filling. Thanks for your encouragement, I really want to be getting involved with church life right now

You said you were baptized. Baptism is indelible. It can't be undone, it is God's gracious pledge to you that you belong to Him. You left the faith, sure, but your baptism never left you. I don't know what sort of Lutheran church you were raised in or which your family is part of, but the ELCA invites all whosoever to come to the Lord's Table. If you came to my church, whether you came up to the Altar or not to receive would be entirely up to you. Freely confess your sins, freely your sins are forgiven, come, partake, taste that the Lord is good.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[oi_antz]

You said you were baptized. Baptism is indelible. It can't be undone, it is God's gracious pledge to you that you belong to Him. You left the faith, sure, but your baptism never left you. I don't know what sort of Lutheran church you were raised in or which your family is part of, but the ELCA invites all whosoever to come to the Lord's Table. If you came to my church, whether you came up to the Altar or not to receive would be entirely up to you. Freely confess your sins, freely your sins are forgiven, come, partake, taste that the Lord is good.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis, can I ask for your view, if the baptism is performed on an infant, do you view it this way "indelible"? I accept without question that adult baptism (willingly) is effectively that. It seems like op has said they did not get baptised consciously and willingly though. Thank you.

 

[aiki]

Hello! Welcome to CF!

You are going to receive a wide spectrum of responses to your post. As a result, I would urge you toward Sola Scriptura. If you want to know what Christianity is, you will be best served in your investigation by going to the Source of all Christian belief and practice: The Bible. Start in the Gospel of John.

I am wondering if, because I took Buddhist refuge vows, I would need to be reconciled to the church in some way. (I know I will need to repent.) I would not feel right to take communion in a Lutheran church with my mother because of this. I am not sure what is best to do right now, because I am so hungry to learn and be at church, to talk to Christians, to study, to pray, and so on.. I still have a great deal of unravelling to do in my life (I have a leadership position of sorts in this sangha, which is another story entirely, and I will need to figure out what to do as far as my involvement here. Although some may say I can still be involved, I don't feel it is right. Either way, I am incredibly shy and reserved and it took a long time to belong here, so letting it crumble is hard.) and God has called me at a very inconvenient time, but I am ready to do anything... if you would have any advice on books to read on the church where I could begin to answer my denominational/theological questions, if you would know anything about conversion, in general, I would greatly appreciate your words.

You don't need to be reconciled to the Church; you need to be reconciled to God. This reconciliation will involve repenting, not just of your pursuit of Buddhism, but of your life generally that has, until recently, rejected the One who made you and sustains your existence moment-by-moment. Buddhism is just the symptom of the heart of your problem, which is a spirit of independence, of self-will and pride, and defiance of your Creator. When you have repented of these things, received Christ as your Saviour by faith, and submitted your life to God, you will find joy and peace in being among those who have done the same.

God is, it seems, drawing you to Himself. Some lines of Christianity will seek to make the Church indispensable to your fellowship with God. In fact, if you aren't careful, you may find yourself so entangled in the rituals, religious paraphernalia, and human tradition of some denominations that the God revealed in Scripture becomes obscured. I would urge you to avoid such churches like the plague. God is not found in ritual and tradition, in the pomp and circumstance of the church, but in the pages of your Bible and in the experience of God as you live in accord with the truth of His Word and under the authority and power of His Spirit.

If you want some excellent teaching on the Christian faith, check out:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-1-podcast

You would do well also to read the following:

"The Green Letters" by Miles J. Stanford.
"Seeing and Savouring Jesus Christ" by John Piper.
"Absolute Surrender" by Andrew Murray.

You were made to know, and love, and fellowship with your Maker. I hope and pray that someday soon you will know God as your Heavenly Father and Christ as your life.

Praying for you!

Selah.

 

[Brianlear]

As others have said, there is no "church" you need to be reconciled too. That's the beauty of Christianity. After all, church is just a word that means, a group of believers living life together. That's all you need. Put yourself into that situation and the rest will follow. Also, since you mentioned emptiness I figured I would give you this little tidbit I like to share about that word--

"A word on emptiness--one time I was on a beach taking a nap and I stumbled on an idea. Emptiness is a gift. A pure, empty space of potentiality, a protective garden from which to make decisions and interact with the world. A quiet place to retreat. Our God who made the air, water, and the vastness of space. He who made quietness, stillness. He is massive and powerful yet uses that power often in such a light, quiet, gentle way. As you stare into your own soul, the emptiness may look on superficial inspection to be, "empty" but look deeper and you might find that the empty "chamber" in your heart is God shaped and he is filling it. He's just such a good fit you think nothing is there."

 

[sparkle123]

ViaCrucis - I was baptized (and later confirmed) in a church that was part of the ELCA. I didn't know that I could always receive communion in the Lutheran church, so thank you for that. It had been over 15 years since I'd been in a church and I assumed I wouldn't be welcomed... I guess this reveals how little I know/knew about baptism. I am now so grateful that I was baptized, because perhaps that is why I have felt this call to return.

Aiki - Wow, what you have said to me created a strong emotional resonance...
You don't need to be reconciled to the Church; you need to be reconciled to God. This reconciliation will involve repenting, not just of your pursuit of Buddhism, but of your life generally that has, until recently, rejected the One who made you and sustains your existence moment-by-moment. Buddhism is just the symptom of the heart of your problem, which is a spirit of independence, of self-will and pride, and defiance of your Creator.
I have been thinking about what led me to Buddhism, which I still think was in part an earnest searching, but undoubtedly my life up to that point was one of total rebellion and pride. Only a few years ago someone could have told me such things and I would have been angry and dismissive - I was definitely living what would be considered a sinful life. Now I feel that it is all true. It's a strange and difficult place to be. I wish I knew more about reconciliation/repentance, this is all mysterious to me. Right now, I honestly feel like I could fill a notebook with the things I've done wrong. I have been looking at the link you provided and it has been helpful, so thank you. I will also check out these books. I too hope that I will come to know Christ as life.

Brianlear - thanks for sharing that quote - love it!

 

[ViaCrucis]

ViaCrucis, can I ask for your view, if the baptism is performed on an infant, do you view it this way "indelible"? I accept without question that adult baptism (willingly) is effectively that. It seems like op has said they did not get baptised consciously and willingly though. Thank you.

There's no difference between the baptism of an adult or the baptism of an infant. Baptism is baptism and remains the efficacious and indelible seal of God. Baptism makes us Christians, it is the new birth, and so the baptized infant is indeed a believing, born again member of the Body of Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[oi_antz]

There's no difference between the baptism of an adult or the baptism of an infant. Baptism is baptism and remains the efficacious and indelible seal of God. Baptism makes us Christians, it is the new birth, and so the baptized infant is indeed a believing, born again member of the Body of Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for your view. I will need to go and look into it. I have not seen infant baptism mentioned in scriptures. For OP's information, I am aware of a very different Christian view of baptism than what ViaCrucis has mentioned here. I personally see a big difference between a person doing it wilfully and having it done to them without their expressed consent, since it raises a couple of quite serious questions about morality and fairness:

* how can a person enter a contract without being made aware of the terms of agreement and having freedom to opt in or out
* why does God make special provision for some people and not others, if not for their expressed willingness to obey?

I will keep this in mind as another potentially controversial doctrine, and make an effort to look into it since I have not looked into this before. But it has always seemed quite wrong to me, to go against the very principle of baptism preached by Jesus and John the baptist.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Good to read your posts!

I guess my observation would be, The issue would not be either feeling bound to continue either Buddhist or Lutheran ceremonies if they don't accord with your conscientious beliefs now; and what really counts is what God's Word teaches, particularly about the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus at the Cross for sinners. For the believer, as I see it, prayer and the Scriptures are a vital way of life, and in the end someone who makes them his or her way of life will also wish to meet with other for whom prayer and the Scriptures are a vital way of life: this is fellowship, which also has good, further definitions in John's First Epistle (which is short, and easily read, and a great read!). Blessings.

 

[sparkle123]

Thank you for the advice! I have been reading the Gospels and praying regularly and have found my desire to meet with others who do the same is increasing day by day. I've backed out of a lot of my commitments with the Buddhist center. I am still transitioning but I am now at the point where I am beginning to call myself a Christian! I will read John's First Epistle, for sure, thank you again

 

[faroukfarouk]

Thank you for the advice! I have been reading the Gospels and praying regularly and have found my desire to meet with others who do the same is increasing day by day. I've backed out of a lot of my commitments with the Buddhist center. I am still transitioning but I am now at the point where I am beginning to call myself a Christian! I will read John's First Epistle, for sure, thank you again

YW: it's so good to have a regular, trusting and prayerful Bible reading habit, and to take in, in utter simplicity (we can make it so complicated) what the Bible is telling us about the love of the Lord Jesus and of justifying faith in Him (John 3.16; Romans ch. 3; Romans 5.1). Blessings.

 

[faroukfarouk]

PS: Just to make another observation, which I hope is helpful: John's Gospel chapter one and the opening verses make a clear distinction between God, and the created world, and the pre-existent Savior Who came into the world. (Sometimes other schemes of thinking will blur these distinctions clearly seen in Scripture.) Blessings.

 

[KimT]

First, the Lord forgives EVERYTHING you have done, including your vows. I would speak directly to the Pastor of a Christian church and have him or her guide you through renouncing any and all vows and practices of your past. When you repent (turn from those ways) and ask Jesus to be your Lord, you will enter into Him and be saved. From that point on you are free to grow in Him. The Holy Spirit will teach you when you read the Bible. Your eyes will be opened. You will find Christian friends and fellowship in the joy that can only come from the Lord! God bless you in your walk with Christ.

 

[FireDragon76]

Go to the ELCA or the Presbyterian church you are currently visiting. The ELCA or Presbyterians are not going to guilt-trip you about your Buddhist past for the most part.

I practiced Buddhism in the past. You are correct that many western Buddhists pick and choose a lot what they will believe. That's the main issue I had with practicing Buddhism in the west. I did a lot of meditation, took refuge in the Buddha and the bodhisattva vows. In the end I came to practicing Shin Buddhism because I wanted a Buddhist tradition steeped in authentic spirituality, but realized without a temple nearby it was not very practicable.

On the social issues you bring up... a lot of churches and religious groups are struggling through those issues. Fundamentalist Christianity (aka "evangelicalism") might be a tempting answer but its not very responsible intellectually or ethically. I'm urging you to not discount a church simply because it is "liberal" or "compromising". In the same way you approached Buddhism with an open mind, you need to approach mainline Christianity with the same open mind. Beware of people peddling flim-flam narratives of the world that try to explain too much. Christianity is not a metanarrative or a systematic account of the world (it's not a "worldview" to use that term favored by conservative evangelicals), it is a proclamation of faith.
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