Brothers and Sisters, is it TIME FOR WRATH???

[ShieldOFaith]

With pleasure. I have critiqued the message of wrath before in several posts, most notably the two below:

http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=40249667#post40249667
http://foru.ms/showthread.php?p=40485177#post40485177

Once again you miss the fact that what Edwards was preaching was Grace!!!

You may not see it at first, but it is there none the less. This whole sermon is about GRACE!!! And a whole lot of MERCY thrown in to boot.

Grace and Mercy are what he is preaching. He is letting you know that GODS grace and mercy are at work, because if they weren't you'd already be thrown down to the pit of hell and be burning.

Read this sermon very very carefully. You will see it, true and clear.

 

[ShieldOFaith]

The misery you are exposed to is that which God will inflict to that end, that he might show what that wrath of Jehovah is. God hath had it on his heart to show to angels and men, both how excellent his love is, and also how terrible his wrath is. Sometimes earthly kings have a mind to show how terrible their wrath is, by the extreme punishments they would execute on those that would provoke them. Nebuchadnezzar, that mighty and haughty monarch of the Chaldean empire, was willing to show his wrath when enraged with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; and accordingly gave orders that the burning fiery furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was before; doubtless, it was raised to the utmost degree of fierceness that human art could raise it. But the great God is also willing to show his wrath, and magnify his awful majesty and mighty power in the extreme sufferings of his enemies. Rom. 9:22. "What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?" And seeing this is his design, and what he has determined, even to show how terrible the unrestrained wrath, the fury and fierceness of Jehovah is, he will do it to effect. There will be something accomplished and brought to pass that will be dreadful with a witness. When the great and angry God hath risen up and executed his awful vengeance on the poor sinner, and the wretch is actually suffering the infinite weight and power of his indignation, then will God call upon the whole universe to behold that awful majesty and mighty power that is to be seen in it. Isa. 33:12-14. "And the people shall be as the burnings of lime, as thorns cut up shall they be burnt in the fire. Hear ye that are far off, what I have done; and ye that are near, acknowledge my might. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites," etc.
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Once again, the love and wrath of God. You can't have one without the other.

Man, Edwards hits hard!!!

 

[Steezie]

SoF, do you realize you're basically talking to yourself and maybe one or two other people?

 

[ShieldOFaith]

1. Thus it will be with you that are in an unconverted state, if you continue in it; the infinite might, and majesty, and terribleness of the omnipotent God shall be magnified upon you, in the ineffable strength of your torments. You shall be tormented in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; and when you shall be in this state of suffering, the glorious inhabitants of heaven shall go forth and look on the awful spectacle, that they may see what the wrath and fierceness of the Almighty is; and when they have seen it, they will fall down and adore that great power and majesty. Isa. 66:23,24. "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
2. It is everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long for ever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Oh, who can express what the state of a soul in such circumstances is! All that we can possibly say about it, gives but a very feeble, faint representation of it; it is inexpressible and inconceivable: For "who knows the power of God's anger?"

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Man! This is something to really consider and think about.

You must read this a few times to really get the weight of this. This is heavy! The best word for it, heavy!

 

[ShieldOFaith]

SoF, do you realize you're basically talking to yourself and maybe one or two other people?

44 last I counted. And thats just the ones who responded on the poll.

 

[Steezie]

44 last I counted. And thats just the ones who responded on the poll.

They clicked the mouse twice, I hardly think that counts as listening. Also the majority of the poll respondents (72.73% in fact) stated that they DONT like this kind of talk

 

[Patashu]

Everlasting wrath?

Guy really holds a grudge, ey?

 

[KomissarSteve]

Everlasting wrath?

Guy really holds a grudge, ey?

Yeah, I'm not sure what God he's worshiping, but it sure ain't the God of the Gospels.

 

[TheManeki]

They clicked the mouse twice, I hardly think that counts as listening. Also the majority of the poll respondents (72.73% in fact) stated that they DONT like this kind of talk

I happily clicked on all the poll choices! I'm in ur pollz, messin' with ur marginz of errorz!

Yeah, I'm not sure what God he's worshiping, but it sure ain't the God of the Gospels.

Yeah, SoF seems to like the more authoritarian and genocidal OT God (lawful neutral alignment?) than the more compassionate God of the NT (neutral good alignment?). This dichotomy of deities is one reason why I tend to look at the Bible as man's attempt to understand God -- especially as the focus of the "chosen people" shifts from tribal in the OT to global in the NT.

 

[Paulos23]

Everlasting wrath?

Guy really holds a grudge, ey?

He has to else he couldn't keep up his narrow view of Christianity, or stay true to it.

 

[united4Peace]

Your right....there is a Hell...

Reading this stuff sure isnt Heaven...which is why Im not about to read it and give myself that splitting headache...(cough cough)

 

[PassionFruit]

Hey look, if I wanted to read about God's wrath, I'd just read the Old Testament, thank you.

 

[bunced]

Once again you miss the fact that what Edwards was preaching was Grace!!!

You may not see it at first, but it is there none the less. This whole sermon is about GRACE!!! And a whole lot of MERCY thrown in to boot.

Grace and Mercy are what he is preaching. He is letting you know that GODS grace and mercy are at work, because if they weren't you'd already be thrown down to the pit of hell and be burning.

Read this sermon very very carefully. You will see it, true and clear.

I have read the sermon very carefully and still say it is not Biblical in its approach - it is not following any model of message seen from the Early Church in the New Testament - they focus on the good news. Read Acts 2 for example, the contains the perfect gospel message. And it reached thousands of people and changed their hearts and lives right around! Grace is not scaring people into things - that is not grace. Grace is caring about someone enough to go out of your way to help them and accept them where they are without needing them to meet your qualifications of morality. Grace is becoming vulnerable so you can share the good news with somebody in terms they can understand. Grace is God reaching down, not so that we can meet his standards but so that he can bring us up to his - yet this sermon is advocating turning to God not out of love and respect for who he is but out of fear for self. That is the wrong motivation and not, I believe, the kind of worship that God desires - he wants a humble and loving heart, not someone who is there simply using God as his "Get out of Jail free" card. Because both God and Grace are so much deeper than that.

I now direct you back to my original points, which you have once again failed to answer, and that is the point that it is not the Church's job to preach the Day of Vengeance of the Lord. Please would you answer me?

 

[ArchaicTruth]

The Church's job is to save people from hell, and preaching hellfire is a poor and hypocritical method.

 

[Zaac]

The Church's job is to save people from hell, and preaching hellfire is a poor and hypocritical method

Who told you that ? The Church is not tasked of God to save anyone from Hell. That is the work of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone.

I have read the sermon very carefully and still say it is not Biblical in its approach - it is not following any model of message seen from the Early Church in the New Testament - they focus on the good news. Read Acts 2 for example, the contains the perfect gospel message. And it reached thousands of people and changed their hearts and lives right around! Grace is not scaring people into things - that is not grace. Grace is caring about someone enough to go out of your way to help them and accept them where they are without needing them to meet your qualifications of morality. Grace is becoming vulnerable so you can share the good news with somebody in terms they can understand. Grace is God reaching down, not so that we can meet his standards but so that he can bring us up to his - yet this sermon is advocating turning to God not out of love and respect for who he is but out of fear for self. That is the wrong motivation and not, I believe, the kind of worship that God desires - he wants a humble and loving heart, not someone who is there simply using God as his "Get out of Jail free" card. Because both God and Grace are so much deeper than that.

You're kidding, right?

The first thing Jesus Christ said after He was baptized with the Holy Spirit was REPENT.

In Acts 2 before all these people came, what did Peter say to them? The Bible says 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


Jesus Christ spoke of Hell more than anyone else in the Bible. Why do you suppose?

How many people did Jesus Christ witness Truth to in the face of their lies?

Jesus taught that actions that led to sins were to be stopped, not tolerated under an umbrella of unconditional grace. In John 8 we find a story of how the religious leaders of His day sought to entrap Him by making a difficult judgment. They did so by bringing before Him a woman caught in the act of adultery and asking Him what punishment she deserved.

Jesus told those who accused her to stone her if they were without sin. The accusers left one by one. But to the woman He said: "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?" She responded, "No one, Lord." Jesus then told her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more"

You can't deliver the Good News without showing why it is Good News.

Too many people in this forum lack this understanding because they don't think their sin is sin. And if you don't think your sin is sin, their is nothing for you to receive Good News about.

The Good News is Good News because it shows the Way to God's Grace and Mercy as juxtaposed to the death and destruction of sin.

You cannot teach of the Good News without teaching of the reason why the Good News is needed.

And THAT is Biblical and aligned with the FULL COUNSEL of God's Word.

Peter warned them why they needed to repent Just as Jesus Christ warned them of why they needed to repent.

 

[Fin1234]

Whatever happened to "believe in me and youwill be saved."

I liked that better than,

"Believe in the most up to date accurate version of me, believe these people will burn and these will live, fill out form b12 and take it too desk C, do a hand stand, spin round three times while holding your breath then spell mississippi while doing a kangeroo impression and watching the ghost of martin luther king ski backwards down a slope made entirely out of prime numbers into a blackhole made out of blackcurrent juice screaming "what's the frequency kenneth!!!!!""

Then you'll be half saved and progress to step 2.

Why are their so many inconsistencies in the bible ,belief and faith regarding christianity. Surely if god knew what his will was and was imposing it on those willing to accept the holy spirit, their would be less confusion on what christianity actually is.

Get yourself sorted before you condemn others.

 

[Zaac]

Whatever happened to "believe in me and youwill be saved."

Belief demands faith that He is Who He says He is. And He tells you Who He is in His Word. He gives His standard of obedience in His Word.

So how does someone purport to believe in Him while REJECTING the WRITTEN WORD that is the written embodiment of the LIVING WORD?

I liked that better than,

"Believe in the most up to date accurate version of me, believe these people will burn and these will live, fill out form b12 and take it too desk C, do a hand stand, spin round three times while holding your breath then spell mississippi while doing a kangeroo impression and watching the ghost of martin luther king ski backwards down a slope made entirely out of prime numbers into a blackhole made out of blackcurrent juice screaming "what's the frequency kenneth!!!!!""

Then you'll be half saved and progress to step 2.

Why are their so many inconsistencies in the bible ,belief and faith regarding christianity. Surely if god knew what his will was and was imposing it on those willing to accept the holy spirit, their would be less confusion on what christianity actually is.

Get yourself sorted before you condemn others.

There arer no inconsistencies in God's Word. There are things you don't understand. You may be trying to understand the spiritual in the flesh. it's impossible. You'll always get contradictions and inconsistencies doing that.


To have the understanding of the Word, ask the AUTHOR of the Word.

There's no confusion about what Christianity is except by the ones who want to make it into something it is not.

 

[quatona]

There's no confusion about what Christianity is except by the ones who want to make it into something it is not.

Now we just have to establish who are the ones trying to make it into something it is not, and we are done.

 

[StarCannon]

There arer no inconsistencies in God's Word. There are things you don't understand. You may be trying to understand the spiritual in the flesh. it's impossible. You'll always get contradictions and inconsistencies doing that.


To have the understanding of the Word, ask the AUTHOR of the Word.

There's no confusion about what Christianity is except by the ones who want to make it into something it is not.

I'm gonna laugh when someone finds out that god and the gods doesn't give... much care as to whether or not a person is saved by any messiah. Oh yes, indeed my laughter will be heard for a full ten minutes before I erupt into amused second breath hysterics at the dupes that have spent countless hours berating everyone to "BELIEVE OR DIE!" when really.. ah... *laughs* Whatever it is we're told by bible, chances are, its false.

 

[united4Peace]

Belief demands faith that He is Who He says He is. And He tells you Who He is in His Word. He gives His standard of obedience in His Word.

So how does someone purport to believe in Him while REJECTING the WRITTEN WORD that is the written embodiment of the LIVING WORD?



There arer no inconsistencies in God's Word. There are things you don't understand. You may be trying to understand the spiritual in the flesh. it's impossible. You'll always get contradictions and inconsistencies doing that.


To have the understanding of the Word, ask the AUTHOR of the Word.

There's no confusion about what Christianity is except by the ones who want to make it into something it is not.

Well...considering that there are many authors of the Bible and they are all deceased that seems like a hard thing to go about doing...