Broken Theology?

fhansen said:

No, it's not "nothing but hatred"- and would not be inconsistent with love, unless you would be of the impression that God would want us to be totally passive in that situation, which would most likely amount to a failure to love our family incidentally.

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Jesus forbids violent self-defense. You cannot expect him to save you if you reject his teaching in the Sermon on the Mount. John says if you do not have his doctrine, you do not have God.

Dave L said:

Jesus forbids violent self-defense. You cannot expect him to save you if you reject his teaching in the Sermon on the Mount. John says if you do not have his doctrine, you do not have God.

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No, He doesn't say that in the Sermon on the Mount. And I would never condone allowing anyone to enter their house and kill their family.

fhansen said:

No, He doesn't say that in the Sermon on the Mount. And I would enter condone allowing anyone to enter their house and kill their family.

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It happens all the time. But we are not to use violent self-defense. I would prefer dying from upholding Christ's words, and wear a martyr's crown than to kill someone only to rot away in a nursing home.

Dave L said:

It happens all the time. But we are not to use violent self-defense. I would prefer dying from upholding Christ's words, and wear a martyr's crown than to kill someone only to rot away in a nursing home.

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Well, maybe that's a good argument for euthanasia then.

fhansen said:

Well, maybe that's a good argument for euthanasia then.

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It's a great argument for obeying Christ and enjoying what it yields.

Dave L said:

It's a great argument for obeying Christ and enjoying what it yields.

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The problem is that while it sounds somewhat reasonable, it then logically means allowing any country to invade and conquer any other country. The allies should've just rolled over and allowed Germany to have its way.

Jake Arsenal said:

I have included an image. Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

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Why did God permit divorce under the Torah? Jesus tells us it was because of human stubbornness.

But also, ancient Israel was not just a religious community, it was a religio-political community. Do governments have the right to use the sword to defend and exact justice? Biblically speaking, yes. That doesn't make what the State does good necessarily; but there is an understanding that the State serves a necessary function in human society for the purpose of curbing social evil and providing a space for human activity to flourish. As the alternative is lawless anarchy in which every person is a law unto themselves--and that leads to barbarity.

All human beings have something that could be called a government or "the State"; whether we are talking about tribes, tribal federations, city-states, modern democratic governments, empires, or everything in-between. In fact, even non-human social groups, such as chimpanzee troops, have a basic level of organization and social cooperation, and "rules" in place to discipline members who act out--chimps in fact actually wage war against neighboring chimpanzee troops, and these troop wars can last for many years.

We are social animals, it's part of what makes us human. And in this world, fallen as it is, the necessity for some kind of social environment is present. And when you have groups, there needs to be structure, there needs to be rules to maintain the peace.

This is why St. Paul in Romans 12 and 13 speaks of the governing authorities ministering justice with the sword, and that as Christians we are called to lives of quiet humility and peaceably with one another and all others. We obey the laws, we pay our taxes, etc. That does not mean we acquiesce to every demand of the State, or that we abandon justice when the State is unjust. As St. Augustine said, "an unjust law is no law at all", and for this reason Christianity has always had a history of civil disobedience. From the ancient days of Rome where Christians refused to worship Caesar or the gods of the Roman State; all the way to the 20th century where Dr. Martin Luther King and other civil rights leaders engaged in sit-ins and other forms of non-violent protest. And to that end, as Christians we are commanded against violence. It is not our place to use violence, it is not my place to take revenge, it is not my place to use the sword. But that doesn't mean the State may not use the sword if or when it is necessary to do so.

In that context, David's slaying of Goliath should be understood as an act of civil justice to defend Israel; many lives were saved as having the two champions fight rather than all-out bloodshed actually meant less violence.

Even with all that said, I don't want to dismiss Christian concerns about Old Testament violence--I think it is important to wrestle with these things, even when it makes us very uncomfortable. We shouldn't be comfortable with bloodshed and violence, it should make us very uneasy, it should make us uncomfortable. Because bloodshed and violence isn't God's way, as we see in Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

Jake Arsenal said:

I have included an image. Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

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God called David to be his warrior-king to finally rid the promised land of the Canaanites, who included the Philistines. God is a just Judge, and according to Genesis 15 in his promise to Abraham about the land, he gave the Canaanites four hundred years to repent and turn to him in faith. Of course, that change did not happen. So Israel, including David, was given the task to remove the Canaanites from the promised land, which the Canaanites had forfeited because of their evil and wicked practices. Jesus shows his justice against the greedy moneychangers as well.

Jake Arsenal said:

I have included an image. Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

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It's not broken theology. David was one type or shadow of Christ, he was not the totality of who Christ is. He was a just a believer who loved God and whose life points to many aspects of Christ personality, character, identity etc. God uses flawed vessels for his glory.


Besides this there is something called Theological development. You don't just get revelation, or advanced understanding of God in one big dose. It develops over time, sometimes over centuries, even thousands of years when you are talking about the Judeo-Christian tradition. Even now while we know lots of stuff some subjects Revelation and End times Eschatology are still very confusing. So the OP in many ways is a bit unfair. Lots of things in David's time weren't worked out. e.g. - Jonah hoping he could run a way from God makes me think that the notion that God is omnipresent and all knowing wasn't completely established in the minds of the Hebrews. The same goes for the nature of the afterlife, and many other things we take for granted today.

Jake Arsenal said:

Goliath "represents" our spiritual battles? David didn't really kill him? Is it just a story that "represents" a spiritual battle?

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

The book of Hebrews treats the Old Testament as history, but a metaphor is something that "represents" something else. So is Goliath a metaphor? Is all of the Old Testament a metaphor, or just those parts that we don't understand in light of the Gospel?

Hebrews 11 refers to many who were of the Faith throughout history. The Faith Is the Faith. It is not two faiths, but rather singularly the Faith.

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most of the old was in the physical that represented and pointed to more abstract concepts today. For example, circumcision was in the flesh but today it's in the heart and a spiritual value. What does this mean for Goliath an actual soul killed by David? I don't know, that's something only God can answer.

Jake Arsenal said:

Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

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Nathan@work said:

Goliath was not Davids's enemy. Goliath was God's enemy.

Nowhere will you find that we are to love God's enemy.

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Nathan@work said:

David never considered him a personal enemy.

Jesus taught that we should love those who we consider enemies of ourselves - not of God.

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This is very clear, but I would like to offer something else >

If someone is God's enemy, the person is my enemy. And Jesus does not say in plain words that we are not to love enemies of God.

And God loves the whole world (John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:1-4, 1 John 2:2), with all His enemies included, and God is our example (Ephesians 4:32-5:1) . . . for us to also love any and all people . . . like Jesus on the cross suffered and died with hope for any and all evil people > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

So, loving includes having hope for any wrong person, like how Jesus was loving us, while Jesus was on the cross and we were "enemies" of God >

"For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Romans 5:10)

We love God's enemies all the time, by reaching to them with the Gospel and praying with hope for them. God commands all-loving prayer > 1 Timothy 2:1-4.

But was David loving Goliath? I would say no. I do not think he was caring about Goliath, and first taking time to talk with him about trusting in God, with hope of this.

Yes, that really happened, by the way, plus it is a real event which we use as an image of warring against the flesh and this evil world. With God, we are able. So, it is not one way or the other > either a real event or a metaphor > but it is an event used as a metaphor . . . I would say

My opinion is when God's word says He hates evil people, this means His is so displeased with them. Human hate, by the way, is disabling; so I think David was not actively hating Goliath, but David was intent one winning victory of the LORD.

John the Baptist says the wrath of God abides on evil people (John 3:36). So, He is angry at them. But He has loved them, by sending Jesus to save us. After all, God in His wrath is not like humans, but He moves on to His all-loving result . . . like He has done by loving us through Jesus on the cross.

And Jesus on the cross is our example of how to love evil people >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, we can be displeased with and disgusted with wrong people, but we love them by having hope for them, in our prayer and example possibly reaching deeper than the preaching. How we are tender and kind with them is loving them, and our example to feed them to join us. We love, by seeing any sinner as a person qualified to be adopted to become our own brother or sister in Christ; any is qualified for the welfare of God's mercy.

So, what about David killing Goliath? It fit with God's purpose, at the time. Maybe it is meant as an object lesson of how things worked, back then, without Jesus. It could have been loving Goliath, by removing him from this world so he would not get into ever more trouble, cause even more harm, and add even more condemnation to his account for the day of judgment. But God is the One to decide who needs to be removed, and when . . . fitting this in with His overall working of things.

Dave L said:

How can you love enemies and kill them? Where do you see this in the New Testament? Any examples of believers doing this besides Peter using the sword at Christ's rebuke?

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Yes.

When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord. 1 Cor 5:5

This wasn't done by they themselves physically doing anything against him but by declaration and decree a door would be open from the spirit by which devil forces would end his life. Still doesn't mean the person would miss out of Heaven as you see it states, so that his spirit may be saved. That shows you they and God can still love such a one.

Dave L said:

Jesus forbids violent self-defense. You cannot expect him to save you if you reject his teaching in the Sermon on the Mount. John says if you do not have his doctrine, you do not have God.

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Perhaps you're missing everything here with context? Jesus DID speak of the right of using a sword as an instrument of self-defence.

“But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.” Luke 22:36.

Jake Arsenal said:

Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

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God is both Lamb and Lion of Judah. When the Son returns, He will return as the Lion, and will not love His enemies. He has commanded us, who must walk in the path of the Lamb for our obedience to Him, to love our enemies, because that is His will for us now. But He does not always love His enemies, according to His Word.

Jake Arsenal said:

Below I have included a similar call to purge by the Apostle Paul which calls on the congregation at Corinth "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

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You did notice the mercy in the verse you quoted right....so that their spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord?

Jake Arsenal said:

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

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Hey Jake,

So, what do you think verse 13 means for us Christians to do with the "wicked person"?

Jake Arsenal said:

Of course. I want to discuss this further with regards to God's character and the intent of Scripture.

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Here is my simplistic interpretation.

God does not, nor will not allow, a human's life on earth to end before their appointed time.

Before that time, everyone has the option of Faith - Salvation.

God is not willing that any should 'perish'(eternal death) but when a person insists on it, God is not going to force them otherwise.

The people you read that God commanded Israel to destroy all insisted on rejecting God.

The key thing to remember is that this life is a 'vapor', it's almost as though it does not exist in the expanse of eternity.

For someone to die here, lose their earthly life, is minuscule in the grand scheme of things.