Broken Theology?

[Jake Arsenal]

I have included an image. Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

 

[Dave L]

I have included an image. Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

We hate our enemies today as well. But instead of killing them we love them. It doesn't say "like" your enemies.

 

[Mr. M]

Goliath, as the enemy of the living God of Israel, represents our spiritual battles.
Make no mistake, we are at war.
2 Corinthians 10:
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God,
bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

Ephesians 6:
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day,
and having done all, to stand.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

Goliath, as the enemy of the living God of Israel, represents our spiritual battles.
Make no mistake, we are at war.
.

Goliath "represents" our spiritual battles? David didn't really kill him? Is it just a story that "represents" a spiritual battle?

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

The book of Hebrews treats the Old Testament as history, but a metaphor is something that "represents" something else. So is Goliath a metaphor? Is all of the Old Testament a metaphor, or just those parts that we don't understand in light of the Gospel?

Hebrews 11 refers to many who were of the Faith throughout history. The Faith Is the Faith. It is not two faiths, but rather singularly the Faith.

 

[Mr. M]

Goliath "represents" our spiritual battles? David didn't really kill him? Is it just a story that "represents" a spiritual battle?

Everyone knows that David cut off the dudes head.
Everyone knows that is not a license for us to cut off heads.
The battles that David and others fought for Israel can only be representative
of the spiritual battles we fight. Not broken theology.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Hence, the scriptures that I posted with the response.

2 Corinthians 10:
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God,
bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

Ephesians 6:
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day,
and having done all, to stand.

Further information is in my signature.

 

[Jake Arsenal]

Everyone knows that David cut off the dudes head.
Everyone knows that is not a license for us to cut off heads.
The battles that David and others fought for Israel can only be representative
of the spiritual battles we fight. Not broken theology.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Hence, the scriptures that I posted with the response.

Further information is in my signature.

Perhaps you misunderstood my original question: Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

I did not ask about spiritual warfare. I asked about how well does David represent God's own heart. I included an image of how someone with NEW TESTAMENT theology would be expected to respond to Goliath.

It is ONE FAITH.

Malachi 3:6, James 1:17, Numbers 23:19 (and many other verses) all say that GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

[Nathan@work]

I have included an image. Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

David did love his enemies. He loved, dearly loved, Saul.

Goliath was not Davids's enemy. Goliath was God's enemy.

Nowhere will you find that we are to love God's enemy.

 

[Nathan@work]

[1Sa 17:10, 21-26 ESV]
And the Philistine said, "I defy the ranks of Israel this day. Give me a man, that we may fight together."

And Israel and the Philistines drew up for battle, army against army. And David left the things in charge of the keeper of the baggage and ran to the ranks and went and greeted his brothers.

As he talked with them, behold, the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, came up out of the ranks of the Philistines and spoke the same words as before. And David heard him.

All the men of Israel, when they saw the man, fled from him and were much afraid. And the men of Israel said, "Have you seen this man who has come up? Surely he has come up to defy Israel. And the king will enrich the man who kills him with great riches and will give him his daughter and make his father's house free in Israel."

And David said to the men who stood by him, "What shall be done for the man who kills this Philistine and takes away the reproach from Israel? For who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?"

[1Sa 17:36 ESV]
Your servant has struck down both lions and bears, and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be like one of them, for he has defied the armies of the living God."


David never considered him a personal enemy.

Jesus taught that we should love those who we consider enemies of ourselves - not of God.

 

[Mr. M]

Perhaps you misunderstood my original question: Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

The Law given through Moses fully accommodates the need to fight wars
for His Name's sake.
David was a man after God's heart in his relationship to Him.
He inquired of His Will, and repented when he was chastised for his behavior.
He never hardened his heart against the Lord's disciple.
For example, the prophet Nathan rebuked him for the Bathsheba incident, and
we have this Psalm of contrition.
Psalm 51:
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies, Blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions, And my sin is always before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak, And blameless when You judge.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, and uphold me by
Your generous Spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, and sinners shall be converted to You.
14 Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God, The God of my salvation,
My tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth shall show forth Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it,
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

Do you hear the Gospel in these words?

 

[Jake Arsenal]

David did love his enemies. He loved, dearly loved, Saul.

Goliath was not Davids's enemy. Goliath was God's enemy.

Nowhere will you find that we are to love God's enemy.

Thank you!

 

[Jake Arsenal]

[1Sa 17:10, 21-26 ESV]
And the Philistine said, "I defy the ranks of Israel this day. Give me a man, that we may fight together."

And Israel and the Philistines drew up for battle, army against army. And David left the things in charge of the keeper of the baggage and ran to the ranks and went and greeted his brothers.

As he talked with them, behold, the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, came up out of the ranks of the Philistines and spoke the same words as before. And David heard him.

All the men of Israel, when they saw the man, fled from him and were much afraid. And the men of Israel said, "Have you seen this man who has come up? Surely he has come up to defy Israel. And the king will enrich the man who kills him with great riches and will give him his daughter and make his father's house free in Israel."

And David said to the men who stood by him, "What shall be done for the man who kills this Philistine and takes away the reproach from Israel? For who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?"

[1Sa 17:36 ESV]
Your servant has struck down both lions and bears, and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be like one of them, for he has defied the armies of the living God."


David never considered him a personal enemy.

Jesus taught that we should love those who we consider enemies of ourselves - not of God.

This really breaks it down. Thank you.

 

[CMDRExorcist]

I have included an image. Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

I always saw it as the delicate balance between loving someone and approving of their actions. Sometimes they might appear to be the same, but they’re very much separate. I can show love to people whose behavior I don’t necessarily approve of.

But even God shows justified rage against his enemies, so there’s a certain level of discernment involved too. I honestly believe like others in this thread have said. David saw Goliath as God’s enemy and sought to serve the Lord by defeating him.

 

[CMDRExorcist]

David did love his enemies. He loved, dearly loved, Saul.

Goliath was not Davids's enemy. Goliath was God's enemy.

Nowhere will you find that we are to love God's enemy.

This pretty much sums it up.

 

[The Liturgist]

Goliath "represents" our spiritual battles? David didn't really kill him? Is it just a story that "represents" a spiritual battle?

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

The book of Hebrews treats the Old Testament as history, but a metaphor is something that "represents" something else. So is Goliath a metaphor? Is all of the Old Testament a metaphor, or just those parts that we don't understand in light of the Gospel?

The two ancient methods of interpreting the Old Testament, both of which we see our Lord and His apostles use, are known as Alexandrian and Antiochene, for the Christians in Alexandria preferred a Christological-prophetic approach in which Old Testament persons and events are viewed as metaphors for Christ and our Salvation, and those of Antioch preferred a literal-historical approach.

In the early church, two of the best theologians, Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia, who were the best purely Alexandrian and purely Antiochene exegetes of the Old Testament, wound up being widely regarded as heretics. The Cappadocians (Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory the Theologian) and Athanasius of Alexandria and John Chrysostom of Antioch became, along with Augustine and Ambrose of Milan, the most respected interpreters of the Old Testament because they recognized it as both a true history and a true prophecy of Jesus Christ.

And indeed, a true prophecy of things to come, such as the prophecy Ezekiel had of the General Resurrection.

Hebrews 11 refers to many who were of the Faith throughout history. The Faith Is the Faith. It is not two faiths, but rather singularly the Faith.

That is correct. The ancient Judaic religion and the Christian church are the same thing; its best I think to regard Judaism as it exists now as a newer religion than Christianity, because it was formed by those Jews who did not accept Christ, and eventually largely coalesced around the doctrines of the Pharisees, except for the Karaite Jews, who rejected the Rabinnical traditions and the Talmud.

Strangely, we might consider Samaritanism as older than Christianity; they rejected holy prophets of God centuries before the Incarnation of Christ.

But as Christians we have a responsibility to love and pray for our Jewish and Samaritan brethren. In the past, we, ignoring the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, did persecute them terribly, and this was a sin on the part of many Christians for a long time. I pray for a world where no Jew should ever have cause to fear a Christian, and no Christian would dare to use a racial slur against the Jews or to pronounce anti-Semitic tropes such as blood libel against them. The only way to convince those Jews still unconvinced that Jesus Christ was the Messiah is by acting in the manner of Christ, with pure and absolute love.

 

[fhansen]

I have included an image. Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Christian theories that defend the right for a person or country, etc, to defend themselves do not conflict with the directive to loves one's enemies. One can defend themselves, even with lethal force, without hating their offenders. Another perspective is that, in a fallen, less than perfected world, God may use the wrong actions of others to bring about an even greater good at the end of the day, with complete justice/love still being the final purpose behind everything He does. Either way God patiently uses weak vessels in this world to further His aims and advance his kingdom, rather than directly producing the effects He ultimately desires.

 

[Dave L]

Theories that defend the right for a person or country, etc, to defend themselves do not conflict with the directive to loves one's enemies. One can defend themselves, even with lethal force, without hating their offenders. Another perspective is that, in a fallen, less than perfected world, God may use the wrong actions of others to bring about an even greater good at the end of the day, with complete justice/love being the final purpose. Either way God patiently uses weak vessels in this world to further His aims and advance his kingdom, rather than directly producing the effects He ultimately desires.

How can you love enemies and kill them? Where do you see this in the New Testament? Any examples of believers doing this besides Peter using the sword at Christ's rebuke?

 

[fhansen]

How can you love enemies and kill them? Where do you see this in the New Testament? Any examples of believers doing this besides Peter using the sword at Christ's rebuke?

I can kill an intruder in my house without hating them, but wanting to protect my family regardless. That would be the ideal in the case of a Christian legitimately using lethal force. Jesus didn't hate those who crucified Him-even though He certainly knew they were wrong.

 

[Dave L]

I can kill an intruder in my house without hating them, but wanting to protect my family regardless. That would be the ideal in the case of a Christian legitimately using lethal force. Jesus didn't hate those who crucified Him-even though He certainly knew they were wrong.

To kill an intruder violates Christ's command to leave vengeance to the Lord. It is nothing but hatred. Feeding him or her is an act of love.

 

[fhansen]

To kill an intruder violates Christ's command to leave vengeance to the Lord. It is nothing but hatred. Feeding him or her is an act of love.

No, it's not "nothing but hatred"- and would not be inconsistent with love, unless you would be of the impression that God would want us to be totally passive in that situation, which would most likely amount to a failure to love our family incidentally.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

To kill an intruder violates Christ's command to leave vengeance to the Lord. It is nothing but hatred. Feeding him or her is an act of love.

...and that's why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13, "... love never protects ...," right?