Brideshead Revisited....anyone? I don't get it!

[Michie]

I'm in it about half way through.

The highbrow language comes off as very insincere to me in this day & age.

But even still...with the difference in time & culture, it still has a ring of insincerity to it, even for the time.

Perhaps because some of their interactions were so insincere in various conversations.

This has made me want to see the series however. It might give me a different view on it. The only problem is that I cannot find it without having to buy it. I'd rather rent it.

I'm going to finish it & hope I get some sort of glimmer out of it.

So far it is just very dank & dark to me.
Quite honestly, I'm finding it really depressing so far.

It's not that I'm not enjoying it, I am. But it is leaving me somewhat confused as far as what message we are supposed to glean from these people.

 

[Michie]

So, I finished it. I found myself warming up to it when Charles was in the jungle & thereafter.

At first, I just found it dreary. But I consider myself a fan now.

I think the Catholic overtones/undertones is what made it considered a Catholic novel.

There was a thread of grace throughout the story. Through the people, through the religious beliefs of the people involved.

Basically, IMO...God can turn any muddled situation into something for His greater glory if it is His desire. In the end, these people were quite worn down & weary. They were tired of fighting the pull of grace & gave into it as their desires had obviously led them into somewhat of a miserable life.

The one thing that seemed to survive untouched was the chapel at Brideshead. Which in the end, turned into the refuge, the rock, the one uncontaminated thing.

I have reserved a copy of the DVD series through the Library to watch when it is returned. Should be the 17th. I'm curious to see if anything else is gleaned from watching the story with visuals.

Thanks for starting this thread.

 

[RoseofLima]

That's cool about the chapel--I had missed that!

I am super sensitive to "tragedy". I hate books that end and I feel like I just got run over with a Mack truck...and I totally did not feel that way when I finished Brideshead...so I knew there was something going on.

Even Julia and Charles splitting up somehow seems "right".

Let me know about the movie....I'll have to check it out sometime...but 11 hours ..whoa!!! That's a huge commitment

In a few weeks I'm gonna read Empire Falls- it was recommened by Amy Wellborn....anyone out there want to read it with me?

 

[Michie]

That's cool about the chapel--I had missed that!

I am super sensitive to "tragedy". I hate books that end and I feel like I just got run over with a Mack truck...and I totally did not feel that way when I finished Brideshead...so I knew there was something going on.

Even Julia and Charles splitting up somehow seems "right".

Let me know about the movie....I'll have to check it out sometime...but 11 hours ..whoa!!! That's a huge commitment

In a few weeks I'm gonna read Empire Falls- it was recommened by Amy Wellborn....anyone out there want to read it with me?

I think Julia & Charles knew that when they chose God & the Church that their staying together was not possible. I believe Charles conversion was gradual but the final blow was when he kneeled during the last sacraments given to Julia's father on his deathbed.

Yes the chapel is what brought it together for me. The people were defined by Brideshead but the only thing left intact was the chapel. Then look where those people defined by Brideshead (the house) in general, now crumbling... turned & lived by eventually, the Church.

Go over the last part of the book in the epilogue about the builders & their intentions. Then read the description of the chapel. I think that is the key.

As far as getting the DVD series, the library lets you have it 7 to 14 days for free so I thought I could do that. I'm pretty excited about seeing it actually. I'll let you know how it was.

Empire Falls? Let me read some reviews & I'll get back to you. If it peaks my interest, I'll join you.

I really enjoyed this thread you started & enjoyed tagging along with you in your read.

 

[Michie]

Oh...another thing I'm still confused by is the pretty much blase acceptance of Sebastian's & Charles' relationship. I got the impression that most accepted this as a common rite of passage for young englishmen.

 

[BillH]

In a few weeks I'm gonna read Empire Falls- it was recommened by Amy Wellborn....anyone out there want to read it with me?

Define "a few weeks" If it's less than 4, I might be inclined to to do.

 

[sempervirens]

from Amy's blog - read some good reader comments at this link

http://amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2005/03/book_club.html


A note from a reader:

I always notice that the book, "Brideshed Revisited", is always listed as a good book for Catholics and Christians to read. But, there is something about it that bothers me. It seems to suggest homosexuality in it between the two male characters. How can this be a good book to read for Christians and Catholics? I feel really turned-off would be very uncomfortable reading a book like this. I can't believe how this book is promoted as such a good one! Is there something I'm missing? If it wasn't for this, I wouldn't mind reading the novel.
​

My response:

Yes, Brideshead Revisited is considered one of the
great Catholic novels of the 20th century. The
"suggestion" of homosexuality between Sebastian and
Ryder is very ambiguous in the novel - it is more
explicitly suggested (but still suggested) in the
British television series (with Jeremy Irons) that was
made of it some years ago. But then remember that the
main character, Ryder (the narrator) ends up having an
affair with Sebastian's sister (which she breaks off
because to marry him, she would have to leave the
church, by the way).

The homosexuality and, short of that, overheated,
intense male friendship was part of the fabric of
English school life for males, both in what we would
call secondary schools and college. It was there, and
has frequently been commented on a written about.
(Including by Evelyn Waugh's brother, to scandalous effect).
It was part of reality, a good novelist must be faithful to reality.
Personally, I agree with the other commentors
on Brideshead who don't think Ryder and Sebastian had
that kind of relationship - Ryder is intensely and
mysteriously attracted to the entire family of which
Sebastian is a part, which I've always believed is a
metaphor for his attraction to the Church.
Or becomes his way into the Church, for which the family is a metaphor.

There is a more obviously homosexual character in the
book who is very Oscar Wilde-ish. And by the way,
Sebastian (the one who carts the teddy bear around)
ends his life (I won't tell you exactly how!) in
circumstances that are quite richly and seriously spiritual.

The book has its fans and its detractors. Most
detractors feel that Waugh glamorizes the British
aristocracy. I've never seen that. As I said, what I
see is the entire family as a metaphor for the Church
- messy, taking different paths to holiness, but all,
somehow, ending up there - and Charles Ryder, the
narrator, can't keep his eyes off them, or, his life
separate from them.
​

 

[Michie]

from Amy's blog - read some good reader comments at this link

http://amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2005/03/book_club.html











A note from a reader:

I always notice that the book, "Brideshed Revisited", is always listed as a good book for Catholics and Christians to read. But, there is something about it that bothers me. It seems to suggest homosexuality in it between the two male characters. How can this be a good book to read for Christians and Catholics? I feel really turned-off would be very uncomfortable reading a book like this. I can't believe how this book is promoted as such a good one! Is there something I'm missing? If it wasn't for this, I wouldn't mind reading the novel.









​

My response:

Yes, Brideshead Revisited is considered one of the
great Catholic novels of the 20th century. The
"suggestion" of homosexuality between Sebastian and
Ryder is very ambiguous in the novel - it is more
explicitly suggested (but still suggested) in the
British television series (with Jeremy Irons) that was
made of it some years ago. But then remember that the
main character, Ryder (the narrator) ends up having an
affair with Sebastian's sister (which she breaks off
because to marry him, she would have to leave the
church, by the way).

The homosexuality and, short of that, overheated,
intense male friendship was part of the fabric of
English school life for males, both in what we would
call secondary schools and college. It was there, and
has frequently been commented on a written about.
(Including by Evelyn Waugh's brother, to scandalous effect).
It was part of reality, a good novelist must be faithful to reality.
Personally, I agree with the other commentors
on Brideshead who don't think Ryder and Sebastian had
that kind of relationship - Ryder is intensely and
mysteriously attracted to the entire family of which
Sebastian is a part, which I've always believed is a
metaphor for his attraction to the Church.
Or becomes his way into the Church, for which the family is a metaphor.

There is a more obviously homosexual character in the
book who is very Oscar Wilde-ish. And by the way,
Sebastian (the one who carts the teddy bear around)
ends his life (I won't tell you exactly how!) in
circumstances that are quite richly and seriously spiritual.

The book has its fans and its detractors. Most
detractors feel that Waugh glamorizes the British
aristocracy. I've never seen that. As I said, what I
see is the entire family as a metaphor for the Church
- messy, taking different paths to holiness, but all,
somehow, ending up there - and Charles Ryder, the
narrator, can't keep his eyes off them, or, his life
separate from them.









​

Good take on it. But, I do remember them having to dress as they were lying naked when Sebastian's little sister came up to visit them. Charles own description describes the attraction as somewhat sinful & forbidden. I remember a conversation between Julia & Charles during their romantic relationship that Charles was the forerunner as his great love & Julia followed. A lot of Charles' attraction for Julia was that her mannerisms & looks reminded him of Sebastian. Yes, he had an attraction to the family... but in the beginning, during his college days, this had nothing to do with Sebastian's faith & how he was raised up. He was simply attracted to Sebastian & his eccentric/charming ways. Sebastian was obviously a very feminine male. His fascination with their faith, Brideshead & the family dynamics came well into Charles' & Sebastian's intimate relationship & well after when he met the family. Save for a few intimate talks of religion as the two were lounging naked well into the relationship when Brideshead was empty of family except for the nanny.

Their mutual friend, (Anthony?) was openly gay, that was the crowd they ran with. When they went to the house of ill repute on a lark, they were pegged as fairies by one of the working girls. There is no denying that although ambiguous compared to our blantant sensibilities anymore, the way it is served on a platter nowadays, it was quite obvious that the two were romantically intimate.

Comments by other characters & the characters themselves made this as obvious as possible for the time. Basically acknowledged but swept under the rug. Not discussed too much as was the case with the time & culture. Boys will be boys.

To say otherwise is denying the obvious IMO.

 

[Michie]

YAY! Got the 3 set DVD today at the Library. After just reading the book, I cannot wait to see this series. After viewing photos, I have to say that visually, it looks breathtaking. I'll let you know after I'm done.

Gonna straighten up the house, walk the dogs, start some laundry & shower, after that, Brideshead, here I come.

 

[Filia Mariae]

That's cool about the chapel--I had missed that!

I am super sensitive to "tragedy". I hate books that end and I feel like I just got run over with a Mack truck...and I totally did not feel that way when I finished Brideshead...so I knew there was something going on.

Even Julia and Charles splitting up somehow seems "right".

Let me know about the movie....I'll have to check it out sometime...but 11 hours ..whoa!!! That's a huge commitment

In a few weeks I'm gonna read Empire Falls- it was recommened by Amy Wellborn....anyone out there want to read it with me?

I will!

 

[Filia Mariae]

Has anyone read Waugh's Helena?

 

[RoseofLima]

Has anyone read Waugh's Helena?

I haven't- though I think my husband has-- he's read nearly everything, except Brideshead...together we are nearly a complete person!

 

[RoseofLima]

YAY! Got the 3 set DVD today at the Library. After just reading the book, I cannot wait to see this series. After viewing photos, I have to say that visually, it looks breathtaking. I'll let you know after I'm done.

Gonna straighten up the house, walk the dogs, start some laundry & shower, after that, Brideshead, here I come.

You'll have to let me know how it is!!

 

[Michie]

Shannon-
If you can get this through your local library, please do it. I know you will enjoy it immensely. Visually, it is wonderful. The script is almost word for word what we have read in the book. The language that I did not like prior, I admire now. Seeing the characters & hearing them speak give them a warmth & depth I found hard to really tap into with the book.

Jeremy Irons/Charles' expressions are priceless in his dealings with the family. Cordelia speaking of her 6 black Cordelia's & Charles' expression was more than amusing.

Also, it is all episode by episode. So it is not as time consuming as you might think. I've watched 3 episodes so far, the first DVD. I'm very pleased.

I'm able to get this for free for 7 days so there is not a huge rush to cram it all in if you do not desire. I'm sure it will be the same for you if you can get it through your library.

I think if you see it visually & see these characters interact, you'll find yourself understanding the whole scenerio a lot better. It makes the book come alive.

I just know you'll love it. If you can, call your library & get yourself a set to watch.

I don't think you'll be sorry.

 

[sempervirens]

From Communio Sanctorum blog - "a Baptist visits Brideshead" - a thoughtful review of the novel.

http://www.communiosanctorum.com/?p=204#more-204

 

[BillH]

Funny you should bump this.

After reading this thread a couple months back, I decided to re-read the book, and just got around to starting a few days ago!

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

LOL! I still haven't seen the nice long version-but added it to my Netflix queue today.

 

[Michie]

LOL! I just asked if you remembered this thread in the new Brideshead thread.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

LOL! I just asked if you remembered this thread in the new Brideshead thread.

 

[BillH]

LOL! I still haven't seen the nice long version-but added it to my Netflix queue today.

By "the nice long version" I presume you mean the miniseries with Jeremy Irons and cameos by Laurence Olivier? If so, you won't be disappointed. Though, some of the episodes, you'll have to watch after the kiddos go to bed... I'm not going to see the movie, as there's no way that it could possibly live up to it.