Breaking........ (very long)

[desi]

Jenna I have heard some men can have their view of sex perverted by porn. To my shame I have scoffed at such opinion until now. Porn my have screwed up your husband's perception of showing love within a marriage. I pray you find answers in this area which are beyond my understanding.

 

[Jenna]

Thanks for your reply, Desi.

 

[Flipper]

Sorry I couldn't see this sooner - was on vacation - had a great time, but this is probably not a good time to talk about that.

I am also far from being a professional, but one thought struck me that I want to share. I wonder if his rejection of you is his way of dealing with his guilt over his porn addiction (if someone came up with this idea earlier - sorry I'm repeating it - I only skimmed the responses). He knows that he can't get off without thinking about that stuff anymore, and using your body in that place, in his thinking, is a horrible injustice to you. Without professional and spiritual help, this isn't going to get any better - if anything, your marriage will continue to go downhill. Obviously, you have figured that out.

Another thing that strikes me, is his jealousy over you going out with the girls. I'm sorry, but that isn't healthy in any way, and that could be part of his guilt, knowing that his hurting you could make you turn to someone else, so to keep that from happening, he might have become a little more possessive since you got married and since his porn has taken hold.

From this post, and your earlier posts about this, it sounds like he kind of cycles between being a total all around A-hole and being sweet to you and sharing his terrible guilt over his problem.

If I'm not off base on anything I said, keep reading, otherwise, ignore me. I think what I would do, is to keep everything status quo, and when he cycles back to feeling guilty, lay it on him that both of you (stress that it isn't all about him or all about you, but all about God, the marriage and the family) need to get help, and need it now. He might be more open to that suggestion when he is at his mental weakest, which is when he is sharing his feelings about how porn is affecting him.

While you are waiting for him to get to that point, start researching now how you both can get help. You mentioned having problems with insurance coverage, start looking in that direction, find out how insurance can cover help and how it can't. If you have to, pay $10 a month on the bills so they don't go to a collection agency. Your state or county might have a mental health department that offers counselling to people who can't afford it otherwise. Shoot, even better than all that: You're Lutheran, right? (of course you are). Check out Stephen's Ministry: http://www.stephenministries.org/. That, my dear, is free (and not just Lutheran - though it's big in the LCMS). However, if you both have chemical imbalances, you are also going to need to find medical help so you can get medication. If you share with your doctor that you have problems affording medicine, a lot of times they will give out lots of samples.

From your research, come up with a plan that you can both do together, and an alternate plan, which would be you getting counseling/medical help by yourself. Committ yourself to this. Then when you talk to him about this again, lay out your plan. Tell him that you are going to fight for your marriage with all your might whether he wants to fight or not. Then you both do it together, or you get yourself help without him for now, praying that once he sees your dedication, he rethinks his stance.

You know I'm ing.

 

[Jenna]

I am also far from being a professional, but one thought struck me that I want to share. I wonder if his rejection of you is his way of dealing with his guilt over his porn addiction (if someone came up with this idea earlier - sorry I'm repeating it - I only skimmed the responses). He knows that he can't get off without thinking about that stuff anymore, and using your body in that place, in his thinking, is a horrible injustice to you. Without professional and spiritual help, this isn't going to get any better - if anything, your marriage will continue to go downhill. Obviously, you have figured that out.

Well, this is kind of interesting. Pardon my candor, and folks who don't like frank language probably shouldn't read any farther..........

He says that he doesn't have a problem when we are actually having sex. There are things about me that are pleasant for him when he is involved. I don't worry that he is thinking about other people while we are having sex, even when he is out of his noggin and acting like a monster. Even when he's bangin' me so darned hard that I think my teeth are going to shatter, I don't fear that he's fantasizing about another woman. If anything, I find that it is usually an act that appeals to him, not necessarily a person. However, it doesn't change the fact that he will disengage from me sometimes and basically just use me.

The biggest problem that we face is that there is just the lack of appeal to begin with. In times past he has come out and said that he just didn't desire me. Then I would walk into the livingroom and find him masturbating while watching porn. I'm sure you can understand how that makes a person feel, after they just were shot down. Little has changed in the past three years since that first happened. With more space, he's been more secretive about his masturbation, but just as blunt in his decrees that many time he just doesn't desire me. The only way that I can evoke that kind of response from him is through oral sex. However, if I stop with the oral and move into more equally pleasurable activities he gets upset with me. So, then I don't have a good time because I know he is mad and/or disappointed. It causes me to want to try and approach him later for a better experience, but after an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], he is done for the next week, maybe two. I don't have any idea why it is that he doesn't desire me, or if it is even something that I can change. *shrugs*

Another thing that strikes me, is his jealousy over you going out with the girls. I'm sorry, but that isn't healthy in any way, and that could be part of his guilt, knowing that his hurting you could make you turn to someone else, so to keep that from happening, he might have become a little more possessive since you got married and since his porn has taken hold.

I know that his jealousy isn't healthy. It isn't good for him to be so stressed out and lacking in trust in me, and it makes me a nervous wreak also. I think in some areas it is a matter of guilt, but only when it comes to me talking with my sisters or friends about our problems. He doesn't want anyone to think poorly of him, but at the same time he thinks poorly of himself. He doesn't want to be embarrassed, which translates into me not being able to talk to anyone about things because he'll get in my face about sharing our 'business' with other people. Thankfully he has gotten over most of this.

The other expression of jealousy is simply that he doesn't trust me not to leave him or cheat on him. I guess I blame this on the fact that when we first started seeing each other, I was in the middle of a real bad break-up. My former boyfriend and I were going at it real bad, and were fighting through that yo-yo affect. He wanted me, he didn't want me. In the end, I had been stupid enough to sleep with him once while I was seeing Michael, and it hurt him. There is only so much apologizing that I can do, only so many times that I can ask for forgiveness. He says that he has forgiven me, but as a consequence of my actions, he pretty much doesn't want me out of his sight. He has said that he fears that all it will take is a guy with the right words, and because of the problems that we have, he thinks that I will succumb and either cheat on him or just leave. I'd like to think that his fears are completely unfounded, but I'll admit to there being times when I've hurt so deeply that I've wanting nothing more than to have someone hold me and want me, regardless of my married state. I understand his fears, but through all of the pain and struggle, I'm fighting for him... for us. I would think that my obvious dedication to this marriage would have calmed his fears, but they haven't. I don't know if he will ever look at me with trust.

From this post, and your earlier posts about this, it sounds like he kind of cycles between being a total all around A-hole and being sweet to you and sharing his terrible guilt over his problem.

Oh yeah, there are times when he is just the most awesome man that I have ever met. My God, last night he hugged me and went on and on about how blessed he is to have me, and how wonderful a wife I am. I couldn't hardly say anything for being so choked up. It is just hard to remedy that with the times when he doesn't want me, or tries to guilt trip me into doing things that I'm not comfortable with, because he has a fascination with something that he saw in a porn. I sometimes feel as though I live with two different men. There is the one who is everything that I could have ever wanted in a husband. Then there is the guy who uses my body at his whim, rejects and humiliates me when it suits his purpose, and has major anger management issues. Some days I want to just hold him for dear life, and beg him not to change, not to be that other person.

You mentioned having problems with insurance coverage, start looking in that direction, find out how insurance can cover help and how it can't. If you have to, pay $10 a month on the bills so they don't go to a collection agency. Your state or county might have a mental health department that offers counselling to people who can't afford it otherwise. Shoot, even better than all that: You're Lutheran, right? (of course you are). Check out Stephen's Ministry: http://www.stephenministries.org/. That, my dear, is free (and not just Lutheran - though it's big in the LCMS).

We have insurance, and they will cover a decent amount of money for therapy. However, it is so tremendously expensive that our deductible would leave us completely broke. I was having to go a couple times a week, just to stave off the very real and appealing ideas of suicide about a year ago. I just completely shattered and told Michael that if he couldn't manage to rein in his temper and back off of me, I was going to do whatever it took to get away. I told him to hide all the medication in the house or I'd either be dead or voluntarily have myself committed to get out of the situation. What I find so frustrating is that in my looking, I haven't found a whole lot in the way of help for those with mental illnesses. Everyone says to get help, but finding affordable help is giving me a real hard time.

As far as Stephen's Ministry, I know that our church is involved in one way or another. We even have a retired Pastor in our flock who did marriage couseling, and continues to counsel people within our church as his service to God. We have many resources within the church, if we can get there. To be honest, Michael has been drawing away, further and further. I'm finding it more and more difficult to talk him into going to church, let alone air our problems to people there. We have friends who know enough that it is even painful for me to sit alone in service, knowing that everyone is wondering where he is at. When I go up to communion and Pastor asks about Mike, I can't say anything. I just shake my head and turn away. I know that people care, but instead of making a point to talk to me when we can actually talk,they bring it up at times when I know that they aren't expecting a serious answer, just like when you ask your mailman how they are doing, as they walk by your house. I think that my church family are just too close to us for either of us to feel real comfortable talking to folks. To me, it is too much like talking with my mother and not expecting her to feel any differently toward Michael. I have the same kind of relationship with the people at my church. I was raised in that church from a baby, and have known these people my entire life. If I want to be able to comfortably still worship with them, I can't do it while thinking that someone is thinking poor thoughts about Michael; and I can't stand those looks of pity that people toss my way when I'm sitting alone, week after week.

As far as counseling goes, in general, he isn't really interested. At least that is what he says. I think that maybe it would be different if he felt that he really had a friend whom he could talk to without fear of unpleasant repercussions. In some ways, it is tremendously sad that I am his only steady friend. I've told him that it is easier sometimes to talk to a stranger, someone that you don't even have to look at again if you don't want to. However, he doesn't really understand, and I can't push him.

 

[HEMDA]

Let me start by praying Father you know her hurts heal them right now bring comfort in her soul and heart.
It says in the bible that he will not put on us more than we can bare. You are honest with us. So you be specific!! You tell G-d when you have had it. Remind him (even though he knows) Lord you promised you would not put more than i can bear on me. Tell him you have had enough. I thank G-d you did not choose suicide. I thank him right now bc if you had you could not have touched so many hearts. With your honesty! I am not in the exact situation as you! But i have felt pain and neglect and abuse. From the one that is suppose to love me more than anything else. I thank G-d that his timing is always best. After 11 years of abuse i finally got him to walk in church doors yesterday. I will be patient i tell the lord. But i want him to understand what i understand. I want him to love me like i love him. There is a song by Steven Curtis Chapman "Tell me how do i love her". When i heard it i made him listen to it in hopes that he could understand what i wanted. But in the end. I know that on this earth we have husbands and wives. But when we are in heaven we will all be one big family people will not be attached like we are in our human form. And thank G-d when we make it there will be no more hurt. Something else i learned from a very good book called THE BIBLE. Is that no hurt is wasted. Jesus said " My grace is sufficient for you , for my power is made perfect in weakness ( including yours) Therefore i will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me 2 Cor. 12:9 . Who can better help someone else through abuse than those of us that have been abused. These very experiences that were most hurt, embarassed, and ashamed of. Are the tools G-d wants to use in all of us. To bless encourage and minister to others. G-d uses not just our strengths but our weaknesses. Do you ask why because. When he uses our weaknesses he gets all the glory AMEN! Your weaknesses are not an accident G-d diliberately allowed them in your life for the purpose of demostrating his power through you. So do not be in dismay he will be there. Don't get discouraged and don't ever ever give up!!
Remember how far you've come , not just how far you have to go. You are not where you want to be, but neither are you where you used to be. I know that G-d will bring you peace i will say a prayer for you.. G-d bless you!!!

 

[Flipper]

Whoa boy! Now, my impression is that your husband is a control freak who wants the entire cake, icing, and the leftover batter - in any flavor by demand.

You keep looking at yourself as part of the problem and that there is something out there that you can do that will change him and help him, and make it all better, and while you see what the problem is, you will continue to make exuses for him (i.e. "he beats off to girls on film...but he has this way of looking into my eyes [dreamy expression]..."). I'm not saying at all that he's an abuser, but your reaction is like someone who has been abused, if that makes any sense. You are never, ever going to be able to change him - only God can change him. It is obvious that the Holy Spirit is working overtime on him - he's got to decide to let Him in, so he can overcome this.

So, start fighting for your marriage by first taking care of your own mental well being. Stephens is a professional counselling service - you don't necessarily get matched with a minister from your own church - it's not going to be like talking to your family.

 

[Jenna]

You keep looking at yourself as part of the problem and that there is something out there that you can do that will change him and help him, and make it all better, and while you see what the problem is, you will continue to make exuses for him (i.e. "he beats off to girls on film...but he has this way of looking into my eyes [dreamy expression]..."). I'm not saying at all that he's an abuser, but your reaction is like someone who has been abused, if that makes any sense. You are never, ever going to be able to change him - only God can change him.

I am very aware by now that I can't change him. I know that God is the only one who can change him. To be quite honest, I don't feel that I am making excuses for him. What I am doing is trying to make it clear to everyone that for all of his faults, he's not some waste of flesh. I don't want to just hop in a thread and bash my husband up one side and down another. So, if that means that I try and share some of our softer moments, maybe folks will understand a bit. Yes, he may be a control freak. He may be an A-hole. He might not be all that bright, and any other adjectives that folks want to use. The point is though that he is my husband and I love him and have enough faith in God to believe that eventually he will be freed from the influences that take over him. I am fully aware of what he does and how wrong it is. I'm not trying to justify his behavior in any way. What I AM trying to do is express how much I love and accept him how he is, and how deeply I am committed to fighting for us. I can hate the sin without hating the man, and maybe that is the difference, that I see the illness as a parasite and not a real flaw in what makes him who he is.

Please pardon me if I sound snappy. Something with that just didn't sit well with me. Of course, I mean no offense though, regardless of how I am feeling.

 

[Flipper]

Jenna, I haven't even come close to suggesting that you give up on your marriage and dump him - and there are times when that is the answer, it's just not here. I haven't said that you are justifying his behavior either. I could have used different terminology in saying that you are making excuses, maybe you were just explaining him in every way.

It's just obvious that there is a serious problem here, and as a friend, I'm urging that you get (or continue to get) professional help of some kind. While this is a fantastic place to vent, and you won't find people more supportive of you anywhere, you aren't going to get the kind of help you need here.

 

[charligirl]

Jenna, I just wanted to let you know that you will be in my prayers.

I have a few random thoughts that struck me as I was reading this thread.. in no particular order and may not be that relevant, but I wanted to share them just incase they spark anything off in you.

The bible tells us that men should love their wives as they love their own bodies - so when a man makes love to his wife he is sort of making love to himself. This correlation between self and wife means that if he does not love himself, he will be unable to make love to his wife.

Following on with that thought process, I have recently read 'Wild at Heart' by John Eldridge. He speaks about how men need a beauty to rescue and how mosty men receive a 'wound' to their masculinity as they grow up. If they are dysfunctional they will try and use the 'beauty' to heal the wound (rather like you described with him before you were married) Of course they will always be disappointed because only God can heal the wound. This can lead to porn, rather than merely as sexual thing, the women in the porn become the 'beauty' to heal their wounded masculinity.. after all she will demand nothing and has no wounds of her own.

Now I don't think your husband would even be aware of all this, but is it possible that this is what has happened over time? that this is more to do with low self esteem? he will be aware that he is not being all he should be.. and this could make him feel even worse - driving him to continue his behaviour until he is trapped in a situatoin and doesn't even know how he got there.

I have had a partner in the past who wanted sex in a lustful/porn type way and he had deep mysogenistic issues stemming from his relationship with his Mother. Interestingly he was also jealous and untrusting, I also started seeing him in the middle of a bad break up and a week after meeting him had a one night stand with my on/off ex. Because of his jaundiced view of women he used sex as a way to degrade and have power... again to make HIM feel better when the reality is, he didn't love himself or feel very powerful deep down.I have worked through loads of stuff about that, if you want to pm me I'm more than happy to share if you have questions about that.

I am reading 'The Lady, Her Lover and Her Lord' by TD Jakes. HIGHLY recommend it as it covers much of what you have been saying in why women choose the partners they do and what they are really needing is to love themselves and get love from God, only then can they really learn how to give and receive love from their man.

One last thought, the bible calls the man to be the spiritual head or covering in the marriage, I have found that if he doesn't do this in a situation and I suggest a 'spiritual' answer to something, point out what the bible says or take the lead and initiate prayer, he is not always happy about it. I think this is because I am stepping into his role and by doing so I am pretty much pointing out that he is failing in this area and that further undermines his self esteem. Now I usually pray that HE will step into the role, or that a divine conversation or sermon topic will point it out, because he will listen then!

I may be way off beat, but perhaps it might shed some light on this.

 

[joshua_cheung]

Jenna

proverbs 10:12
12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins .

There are hatred between your husband and you. Only love can heal.
I think both of you have judgement on each other. There are no forgiveness in both of your heart.

God bless you.

 

[cutekid 4 Jesus]

Noone has picked up on this so I dont know if its just me misinterpreting this but did you say you have been raped by your husband -'used me against my will' was the phrase that suggested that. correct me if im wrong if I am right well this is beyond extremely serious I find it difficult to counsel a woman to stay in a marriage with porn AND rape.

 

[Ashlynn]

 

[pegatha]

Jenna, I keep thinking about everything you've posted, and wondering what (if anything) to reply. You seem to be blaming yourself for things that are not your fault. You seem to think there's something about you that causes his lack of desire and trust for you. In reality, these feelings come from inside him. He has chosen a very destructive path for himself, and he is simply no longer capable of appreciating any good thing about you or of being happy. He will stay that way until he truly repents and commits himself to God and his marriage. It's not something you did, it's all about him.

His extreme swings between loving you and abusing you are typical of wife-batterers. You haven't ever said that he has hit you, but in all other respects, you are most definitely being abused. On top of that, he is trying to manipulate you into keeping his secret from the very people who could help you both. It's unbelievably arrogant (not to mention cruel) for the abuser to get the victim to help him look good. Can't you make an appointment to go talk to your pastor about this? If you don't seek help, even at the risk of offending your husband, then you are only enabling him to continue his destructive behavior. God is not mocked, and the longer your husband waits till he is made accountable for his actions, the worse it will be for him.

 

[Jenna]

proverbs 10:12
12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins .

There are hatred between your husband and you. Only love can heal.
I think both of you have judgement on each other. There are no forgiveness in both of your heart.

I think that it is a little presumptuous to say that there is no forgiveness in our hearts. I will say that there are definitely areas where we struggle, but I don't think that anyone here knows us well enough to say that we bear hatred toward each other or that we are unwilling to forgive. I'll say that you are completely correct in saying that only love can heal. My husband and I have a lot of spiritual growth to accomplish individually, and together as husband and wife. May we always be a work in progress.

 

[WolfGate]

Jenna - wish I could tell you something to share with your husband that would make a difference, but that's beyond me in a message board. You do appear from these boards to be a godly woman seeking to grow in Christ. Seems unfair you'd be burdened such, but I am not one to question whether God may have a different path for you.

Instead, I'll just pray that God's will be done, and if within his will that you and your husband find the growth and joy in marriage that was intended.

 

[Jenna]

Noone has picked up on this so I dont know if its just me misinterpreting this but did you say you have been raped by your husband -'used me against my will' was the phrase that suggested that. correct me if im wrong if I am right well this is beyond extremely serious I find it difficult to counsel a woman to stay in a marriage with porn AND rape.

You are correct in your interpretation. There was a time a couple years past when my husband became terribly jealous over my interaction with another man and proceeded to have sex with me after I had said 'no'. I chose not to fight because I was quite honestly shocked and not truly understanding what was happening at the time. However, I simply shared that as a way to illustrate the kinds of things that happen when he is overcome by whatever it is that rules him during times of duress. Like I said before, for the most part, he is a real great person. I don't understand what it is that flips that switch and turns him cold to the things that mean the most to him, causes him to rebel passionately against God's will for him, and to treat me poorly. That was my point though, not the instance of rape. We have dealt with that, and I have forgiven him his act of incredible stupidity. While I wanted everyone to understand how damaging this evil is to both of us, it is not a statement of what commonly happens within our marriage bed. To be quite honest, I told him that I will always give freely to him so long as he never comes to my bed seeking to punish me, and that if he should ever try rape me again.........well, at the time I was so vehement that I said I would kill him. I wouldn't, but it never struck me as neccessary to speak on the subject again. There were times when he would slap me if he became angry enough, would go through my things, would seek to 'ground' me if he felt that I was behaving in an untrustworthy manner. It was a time of continual fighting and strife. Thankfully, the majority of all that has passed, and we have made a lot of headway. However, there are still times on occassion where we have difficulties and he acts in ways that are rude, disrespectful, and hurtful. For instance, he no longer tries to get me to have sex with him in view of other people, but instead does other things like "facials", which I find very demeaning. It is another thing to tackle, but after making headway with more hurtful behavior, I don't feel daunted by this task.

Lastly, I didn't ask anyone to advise me to stay with my husband. For as much as some would say that I exhibit "typical" behavior of an abused woman, I simply like to think of it as a damned hard backbone and a healthy dose of fortitude. I don't need to run away from my husband to garner strength. The Lord will give it to me in plenty. I'm here. I'm staying here, and I'm not making any excuses for it or trying to convince anyone else that I am doing what is right. *I* am completely convinced, without the slightest shadow of doubt that I am where I am supposed to be. No one would be able to convince me otherwise, and I'm not asking them to. When I ask for help, I'm not meaning for folks to point me toward the nearest professional. Sometimes it is just a bible verse, some words of encouragement, maybe a little bit of a cheering section. For pete's sake, don't I have enough working against me? *laughs* I can't change my husband, but I CAN change how I react to things, work on the state of my heart, find helpful areas of God's Word to carry me through when I feel weak. All of these things are possible, along with being able to find bits of wisdom for me to present to my husband, especially during times when he isn't being himself. Hey, I may not be able to give him much, but I'm looking for all that I can. If folks want to think me weak or whatever, that is their perogative. Me, I think it is a lot harder to make the firm decision to ride this out and beat the heck out of it than to just walk away and pretend that I don't love this man more than I do anyone else on this earth.

--Oh, and the last bit, it wasn't directed at any one person, just to clarify. Once I get going on a particular train of thought, I just have to ride it out. lol I'm not stomping on anyone's toes, just stating how things lie.

 

[joshua_cheung]

[/font]
[I think that it is a little presumptuous to say that there is no forgiveness in our hearts. I will say that there are definitely areas where we struggle, but I don't think that anyone here knows us well enough to say that we bear hatred toward each other or that we are unwilling to forgive. I'll say that you are completely correct in saying that only love can heal. My husband and I have a lot of spiritual growth to accomplish individually, and together as husband and wife. May we always be a work in progress. [/font]

The question is how to let love always stay in both of your heart.

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Still praying

Just a random thought - is sex his only physical outlet for stress? Does he have any hobby like soccer, or kickboxing, or something? Sometimes men need an outlet (as do girls), and even though it can be bad, maybe the only 'outlet' he has given himself to de-stress IS sex. That, combined with porn, could be a logical explanation for his behaviour.

Good on you, too, for learning when to pick your battles. I'm sure I learnt the hard way on that - succeeding in changing one behaviour, only to jump right on the next - I kinda understand my exes behaviour now. It's a good habit to learn people - pick ONE battle, and then let it lie - don't try to fix em all in one week.

I applaud you Jenna for your mindset. I applaud you for staying strong, and for learning to work out what is acceptable, what isn't, and approaching it so level-headedly and determinedly. I'm glad you've been determined to stick by him, yet at the same time, not accept dangerous behaviours.

BTW - I also COMPLETELY understand your feelings on FACIALS - can't stand em! (but I understand why you aren't jumping on that behaviour right away, too).

Still think you're awesome - and I hope your house is going well

Sasch

 

[JulesM]

Hi Jenna

Reading your posts have really struck a cord in my heart. I want to send you as much love as I possibly can in an internet forum!

As someone who has suffered rape, an abusive long term relationship, being used for 'porn type' sex with an ex AND clinical depression I can identify with a lot of what you are saying.

Please feel free to PM me if you have any questions or more personal things you need to get off your chest. I am not easily shocked, and I feel God has prompted me to offer you love and support.

When Jesus died on the cross he overcame EVERYTHING, you are an overcomer, you will get through this.

XXXX