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I think it is best we agree to disagree then. I do not see the verses I quoted to you as being true to what you said.
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Don't confuse the objective work of Christ with the subjective experience of that salvation.
I think it is best we agree to disagree then. I do not see the verses I quoted to you as being true to what you said.
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The verses you quoted can all be interpreted in a way consistent with what I said. But if you want to imply that we can live a sinless life, then I think it is indeed good that we agree to disagree.
I've been through the holiness church thing, though mine was eastern and not western, but the results are often the same- frustration, despair, and legalism. That can't be Good News.
There is a dialectic relationship between our justification and our sinfulness, both are simultaneously true.
I don't think my church approves of sin, that would be a foreign concept to Lutheranism honestly.
Lutheranism is about compassion, first from God, then from us. The parable of the unmerciful servant is what we are aiming at. Forgive others because God has forgiven you. Of any large, mainline denomination, I think Lutheranism takes sin the most seriously (Catholicism would be up there too, and the various Reformed churches), and preaches about it the most. Luther was basically the catholic "Doctor of Sin", he knew its ins and outs. He also knew how hopeless the Christian spiritual life would be without the unconditional grace given through Jesus Christ.
I actually think many holiness churches do not take sin as seriously as the think. There are certain pet sins that they preach against, it's rather straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.
If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.
Lutherans are following a man who has admitted that we can "sin bodly." Whether all people in the Lutheran church agree with that statement from Luther (as it is plainly written) is another story. But it is what Luther said.
In fact, much of what this person says who left the Lutheran church makes a lot of sense when we carefully examine God's Word (By way of contrast), too.
Why I Left the Lutheran Church - Truediscipleship
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GOD has blessed me tremendously now since 1995 and ya know I pray the same for you brother. May the Lord bless you with infinite wisdom and words to supplant the gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to all that will hear. Amen.May God's love shine upon you.
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I will quote the original context of "sin boldly" just for a wider context:
Martin Luther: Sin Boldly | Page 1 of 1
Yes, all Lutherans agree with Luther on "sinning boldly", when properly understood. It is foundational to Lutheran ethics. It is necessary to sin boldly, to preach a real mercy and not an imagined mercy. Our sins are real, therefore the mercy offered must be real as well.
Do you even understand the Augustinian anthropology that Luther built his theology around? We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. Sin often taints our motivations, including the desire to be holy. Only the Holy Spirit can produce genuine good works in us, and even these works are feeble and imperfect, and do not merit eternal life. But yet, we should do good works anyways, for the sake of our neighbor.
That sounds like a naive young man. There are thousands of churches each thinking they have reinvented that "book of Acts" church in perfection. But I haven't seen a perfect church yet.
Remember, Jesus said that even looking upon a woman in lust is like adultery.
So I just do not see God agreeing with the idea to "sin boldly." I have heard Lutherans before trying to explain Luther's words on "sin boldly" in the same way that you are saying it, but I am just not buying it. Words have meaning.
He is telling me to be a sinner.
He is saying we will commit sins while we are here. Yet, John says, to: "sin not." (1 John 2:1). Paul says, "be ye angry and sin not."
Jesus says, "go, and sin no more." (John 8:11).
It sounds to me what Luther says vs. what the Bible says are two different things.
in it mildest form "Wrong", In it's worse form "Evil", In it's moderate form "wickedness"... Bad, wrong...
Mistreating disrespecting, not honoring or esteeming others as greater to or equal to yourself... And, by equal as yourself, always treating others how you would want to be treated, regardless of how they treat you... Always treating them anyway, how you yourself want to be treated, regardless of how they treat you... Even if they are not treating you how they want to be treated themselves by you or someone else and are being hypocritical... For example: If you don't want others to be angry with you, "ever" than don't be angry at or toward anyone else "ever", as one example...
The only exception being is when you would want someone to say rebuke or correct you (mildly and gently at first), (increasing in intensity and severity, in steps the more the same bad behavior is repeated), Anyways, The only exception being is when you would want someone to say rebuke or correct you, for bad behavior, when they are displaying it toward you, and you would want them to do the same with you if you did that, and you fully accept that... Then and only then, it might be right to take a stand against wrong, as long as you fully expect and will fully accept someone else taking a stand against you when you are wrong, doing wrong, or are in the wrong, of, course...
Otherwise it wouldn't be just...
God Bless!
Faith or Grace is the beginning, the start... While works, or law, is the end, or the fulfillment... Is how I take it... And one cannot judge another very accurately to where there at or should be in that process, only God alone can and knows... Most of us are at varying and different stages somewhere in that...One part of the Bible appears to say that we are saved without doing anything. The other part of the Bible paints a different picture saying that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God, etc.. How do we reconcile the many passages of Paul with what James says? How do we reconcile faith and works (or a life of holiness)? How do we reconcile Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 with James 2:17, James 2:24, 1 John 3:10, and Titus 1:16, etc.?
The answer is actually really simple. The answer is Jesus Christ.
Jesus saves us by His work that He did with His death, resurrection, and ascension (i.e. Justification - Our belief in Jesus and His work He did for us and by our asking Him to forgive us of our sin).
Jesus also saves us by His work that He does within our life, too (i.e. Jesus saves us in Sanctification, as well). For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). This would be the works of the devil within your life (i.e. sin). For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is one of the reasons why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
(2 Corinthians 5:17).
Here are three heavy hitter verses that I am hoping will hit a home run with you on this point.
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).
"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).
Did you catch what it said in Ephesians 5?
It says Christ gave Himself for the church (i.e. the saints) that He might sanctify and cleanse them by the washing of the water of the Word (i.e. God's Word or Scripture) that He might present to Himself a type of church that is without spot, wrinkle, and who is holy and without blemish. How do we get cleansed by the Word? By obeying the commands within it. Jesus says, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). And Jesus had said elsewhere, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed." (John 8:31). For Jesus says, "He that is of God heareth God's words" (John 8:47). On the flipside, Jesus says this can be our reality,
26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
(Matthew 7:26-27).
Or the following can be our reality...
"Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." (Philippians 1:11).
I hope this helps.
And may God bless you.
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Well, law or works is actually the beginning and the end, and faith or grace is somewhere, and is for the somewhere's, in between, actually...Faith or Grace is the beginning, the start... While works, or law, is the end, or the fulfillment... Is how I take it... And one cannot judge another very accurately to where there at or should be in that process, only God alone can and knows... Most of us are at varying and different stages somewhere in that...
God Bless!
Faith or Grace is the beginning, the start... While works, or law, is the end, or the fulfillment... Is how I take it... And one cannot judge another very accurately to where there at or should be in that process, only God alone can and knows... Most of us are at varying and different stages somewhere in that...
God Bless!
He did that to re-frame our use of the Law. Since the law condemns us, we should not be like hypocrites. Jesus wants us to be forgiving, not judgmental.
FireDragon76 said:Then you are saying it's not OK for God to freely forgive sinners.
FireDragon76 said:Nope. He's not telling you to be one ,he's saying to own up to what you are, and to put your trust in Christ alone to be your true savior.
FireDragon76 said:You're confusing Law and Gospel.
FireDragon76 said:A chronically abused passage. Go read Timothy Wengert's explanation of this passage in Reading the Bible with Martin Luther. The way you are reading it, you are turning an invitation to leave a life of adultery into a condemnation of all sinners. That's poor exegesis and poor theology. He's just forgiven the woman, why would he condemn her?
Reading the Bible with Martin Luther: An Introductory Guide: Timothy J. Wengert: 9780801049170: Amazon.com: Books
FireDragon76 said:Or it could be that you've found a way to boil down the complexity and tension of much of the Scriptures into a nice, neat, rationalized package of works-righteousness.
You believe you cannot overcome sin. You believe like Luther in that he said you will always be in sin. This is not an encouragment to stop sinning but it is a defeatist attitude towards sin that is not taught within the Scriptures or real life.
Even unbelievers have overcome certain sins. So the notion that believers cannot overcome sin by the Lord's power and working is simply not true and it is a denial of Scripture.
No. That is what you are saying. God can freely forgive sins but a person has to be penitent.
A believer cannot continue in sin and not have a Godly sorrow over their sin and refuse to repent of their sins and be right with God.
No. Don't tell me what you think he said. I KNOW what he said. It is written in black and white. He said "be a sinner." He said, "we WILL commit sins." He is encouraging me to sin.
No. I am not. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12).
So where is your claim that I am into works righteousness? It is nothing but smoke, my friend. For I do not believe in Man Directed Works Salvationism. I believe in God Directed Works Salvationism.
"Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God" (Philippians 1:11).
A person cannot be filled with the fruits of righteousness that are by Jesus Christ if they are also filled with the fruits of unrighteousness or sin, too. For what fellowship does light have with darkness?
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