Breaking 1844 made simple

[Adventist Dissident]

I have a degree in SDA theology + 30000 pages of study on the subject of SDA theology and History. I also grew up in SDA enclaves, so I am very familuer with the SDA stories. I have no Doubt about the Spiritual Gifts, just EGW. I have read too much SDA History to believe Her to be a prophet. What she is I do not know what she is not I know for certian. She is not a prophet. She is not even accurate in interpreting scripture. The problem is simple: prove the teaching wrong, prove the prophet wrong

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Well, I see you are rich, increased with goods and in need of nothing...

All I can do is pray for you.

 

[fozzy]

Yes, thanks to the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ as contained in the 1888 message we are rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing especially from that legalistic, false prophet Ellen G White and her cult like devotion to the ten commandments!

That is the only reason your dead church was raised up to begin with - to take that message to the whole world not the worthless law that has never saved a single person. Do you believe in the 1888 message? A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Well, I see you are rich, increased with goods and in need of nothing...

All I can do is pray for you.

This is exactly what the problem is. You think it is about you. your truth, your beliefs, your prayers. you want things your way. You simply don't what to do what God says and "test every thing hold fast to what is true." you simply don't what to do that. it is you who need help not I. It is simply people like you that convinced me to quit coming her.

 

[fozzy]

That is the only reason your dead church was raised up to begin with - to take that message to the whole world not the worthless law that has never saved a single person. Do you believe in the 1888 message? A simple yes or no will suffice.

I didn't think I would get an answer to this. Adventists are terrified by this question and I mean they should be. If you answer it wrong you're going to hell.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Of course I believe in righteousness by faith in Jesus...

Just because we honour God through obedience to His Law does not negate the fact that it is Christ's Spirit that is enabling us to do so. Justification is Christ's work alone... sanctification is our work through Christ.

 

[fozzy]

Of course I believe in righteousness by faith in Jesus...

Just because we honour God through obedience to His Law does not negate the fact that it is Christ's Spirit that is enabling us to do so. Justification is Christ's work alone... sanctification is our work through Christ.

This is not the 1888 message. Our work is to believe that Christ does everything. Our Salvation including (justification, sanctification and glorification) is a finished and complete work in Christ that we receive by faith. That message was given because the church had gone over the deep end with law worship. Almost every single post of yours is on the law so you may be sincere (I don't know) but sincerely wrong.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Here's another verse for you to consider...

Rev 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

An overcomer is not a passive role... it is cooperating with the Divine for His will and Glory.

Did Jesus keep the Law? Did Jesus honour the Sabbath He sanctified and hallowed?

 

[fozzy]

Overcoming has nothing to do with keeping the law! No where in the counsel of Jesus to the seven churches do we read the word law or commandment. We do read a lot about love and faith and patience and persevering to the end, however. It is almost like you see law in every verse and chapter and story! I am not saying this to be mean but your views are from Ellen White not the bible. It would almost be better if you threw away everything you learned from her and just started over.

The word overcome means 'to prevail' and harkens back to the story of Jacob and his night of trouble with the angel of the Lord. Did Jacob keep the law in his hour of temptation with the Lord? Nope. He spent the whole night wrestling and fighting with God. He was so persistent that God actually got tired of it and wanted to leave but Jacob would not let go so he knocked his hip out of its socket and he still would not let go. He was writhing in pain and agony but he refused to let go of his God. This is what an overcomer is. Jabob's name was changed to Israel just like the overcomers receive a new name because they love God more than anyone or anything else in the whole wide world.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

overcomers receive a new name because they love God more than anyone or anything else in the whole wide world.

And what does Jesus say to those that love Him?

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The word "keep" means an action on our part... otherwise Jesus would have said... "if ye love me, have faith that I will keep my commandments for you"

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Fozzy, what is your take on all the post transfiguration verses that speak of the redeemed 'keeping the commandments'?

 

[fozzy]

In the old covenant, God commanded the Jews to keep the commandments of Moses which are not binding on Christians. They are not even binding on Jews anymore but the Jewsih people haven't figured that out. So the SDA and their constant referral to the 4th commandment and the law shows nothing but ignorance.

In the new covenant, we are commanded to keep the commandments of Jesus which revolve around faith and love and the fruits of the Spirit. He did make some statements which imply the law will never pass away until all is fulfilled but even in this the careful bible student will discover that he was speaking to Torah observant Jews not Christians and the law was fulfilled at the cross.

A new covenant commandment keeper is someone with the faith of Jesus and the love of God. This is what a commandment keeper is and you need to be born again to keep these commandments. The law is spiritual and we need to be spiritual to keep it. 'But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter' Rom. 7:6

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Please try and clear this up for me as i've heard this statement made before that the Law was fulfilled or 'nailed' to the cross.

Are you saying that none of the moral Law that Christ gave is in force today? Or is it just the 4th Commandment that was done away with.

If these Laws were fulfilled, then what is the standard we are to be judged by?

And lastly, what in your opinion are the specific 'commandments' that we are to keep to gain a right to the tree of life? Is it to just believe in Jesus and in doing so receive the fruits of the Spirit? Is there no obedience to anything on our part? Are we secured a place in Heaven with no effert on our part once we receive justification through Jesus?

Sorry, i know it's a lot of questions but I have never heard an adequate answer to this idea before and am hoping you can help...

 

[fozzy]

The best explanation I have come across is when Paul splits the law into two parts being the letter and the spirit. The letter is the law of Moses including the ten commandments and the spirit is God's love that is written in the heart. All of his statements where the law is abolished and presented in negative terms are usually talking about the letter. While all of his statements where the law is presented in positive terms (and there are some) are the spirit of the law or God's agape love. The OT sanctuary service is a good model for understanding this. Everything about the sanctuary pointed forward to Christ. The lamb that was offered on the altar pointed to Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The high priest and the temple itself pointed forward to Jesus as our great high priest that ministers in the heavenly sanctuary. Which leaves us with the law housed in the ark of the covenant. This also pointed forward to the new covenant where the law is written in the heart not on stone tablets. Jesus is the reality so there is no more animal sacrifice or human high priest or earthly temple or law written in stone.

Which leaves us with the Sabbath. The Sabbath was actually instituted at creation thousands of years before the law of Moses and it was given to Adam the father of mankind so it is not a Jewish day. It is for everyone and is a memorial of creation and since the cross it is a memorial of redemption in Christ. The day is a sign or symbol and has no power at all. No one will ever be lost because they don't keep the Sabbath. People will be lost because they reject Jesus as their savior. So the twisted Adventist understanding that makes the Sabbath a salvational issue is Wrong! Many born again Christians that love the Lord and reject the Sabbath for whatever reason will be saved. While many Adventists who have kept the Sabbath from their youth and know nothing about believing in Jesus will be lost. It's not about the day it's about what the day represents and the day means to rest. Resting in Christ means you have given up trying to save yourself and are trusting in God's promise of redemption.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Did Jesus not teach and keep both the letter and the Spirit of the Law? I see in the life of Jesus that He kept the Sabbath day literally as well as figuratively. Also, the disciples, after Jesus was ascended, also kept the Sabbath, even teaching the gentiles to do the same.... so, if Jesus, nor the disciples stopped keeping the commandments, why would we?

Which one of the ten do you consider to be non essential in keeping to the letter? Can I literally kill someone without first violating the spirit of that commandment? Are not both components in play here? How about worshipping idols... do we today not worship our own idols ie; sports or entertainment personalities, money or possesions, even our own wisdom, above God? Are these 'letters' done away with as well? That makes no sense.

You are right, that Jesus did teach that there is another component to the covenant... that it is not just about outward show of obedience but about the intent of our hearts. As Jesus said, if you love Him you will keep His commandments. I don't steal because I love Jesus and my fellow man, not because of the threat of condemnation. I keep the Sabbath because the Spirit helps me understand the deeper implications of the Sabbath... It is our motivation that Christ wanted us to understand and through the Holy Spirit, we receive that.

I know you don't agree with my understanding but I would like to ask which of the ten commandments given at Sinai do you no longer keep in 'letter'?

 

[fozzy]

Do you need the commandments to know that lying and stealing and killing are wrong? Doesn't your conscience tell you those things are wrong? Are you aware that for the first 2500 years of earth's history there was no law? Men like Enoch and Noah and Abraham were all able to live righteous lives without it showing that the law in unnecessary for Salvation. And as I have already shown the Sabbath can be kept without the law as well. This is why the bible says we are no longer under law but under grace. Grace is all that is needed.

This is starting to get off topic so if you want to continue on with the 'law' maybe you could start another thread or just use one of the many 'law' threads that have already been started. There are no shortage of 'law' discussions around here! This is why I will be doing my best to start as many grace threads as I can. Do you know what grace means? It means unmerited favor. I don't have to earn grace because it is free and has already been paid for by the blood of Christ.