Branching Trees - A question for evolutionists

Halbhh

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Are you sure that is what is being debated? Or are you really trying to defend your interpretation of Genesis by turning the debate into a contest between theism and atheism?
There is certainly a problem with many Christians not distinguishing what is a spiritual thing and what is merely only a physical thing, in bible verses. The bible is not about physical stuff like geology, orbital mechanics, biology, and doesn't even touch on even a bit of physics, not even gravity! It just doesn't adress mere physical things like how the sun works or how to engineer a bridge, etc. None of those is addressed, anywhere, ever, in scripture, which is only about relationship with God, and meant to draw us nearer to Him. So, too often what is clearly about something spiritual is misread to be about something physical. That's how wrong ideas like flat Earth or geocentrism arose -- those misreadings. Misreadings that could have been avoided if they read more fully, with listening, to scripture, instead of picking out verses to construct a doctrine and then defend a doctrine as if it is scripture. Each time, you are just seeing someone misidentifying a mere doctrine (idea) as being scripture. But scripture is wonderfully more subtly and beautifully worded, and points us to the eternal One, the only one true God.
 
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SLP

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Actually I described it in detail.
Er...
Different kinds of life exhibit phenotypic plasticity,
Which kinds? And to what degree?
in that the genetic expression is altered in response to different environmental triggers.

How is it altered such that is produces a new, permanent phenotype?

What happens to the 'original' version - should it not die out completely since all members of the old 'kind' will be exposed to the same environmental triggers?
For example, a lizard species that changes its diet from bugs to plants will gradually change their expression in shape of the skull and teeth and even the shape of the stomach, this change also happens rapidly.
Why gradually?

If, as you assert with no evidence, these alternate phenotypes' "programs" are already there, shouldn't these new adaptive phenotypes pop up in a single generation?
Oh, right, you also say it can happen rapidly. What determines the speed? How do environmental triggers activate the specific re-organization of genomes?
This seems like a rather simple experiment away from unequivocal support - when do you plan to start the research program to test this creation science hypothesis?

There are countless other examples. The Galapagos finches, always lauded as a symbol of Darwinism,
In reality, they are "lauded" as good examples of natural selection, which they are.
are found to move rapidly within these phenotypic cycles, in response to seasonal changes.
Um... not even close. Weird that you present yourself as having great knowledge on this material.
While it is true that beak measurements fluctuate over short periods of time (not "seasonally"), it is also true that more permanent changes - evolution, if you will - has been observed in them.

They are not slowly evolving along some evolutionary trajectory away from finches as was originally fantasized.
Again, you don't seem to understand the significance of them.

You see, Darwin noticed that the finches on the Galapagos were very similar, but not identical to, finches found on the mainland, and that there seemed to be more of a variety on the Galapagos islands versions than on the mainland.
The longitudinal studies of the Grants and such documented the changes in response to longer-term environmental changes like droughts. These were examples of selection in action. Interestingly, Darwin wrote more about pigeons than finches in the Origin, as he had done a lot of pigeon breeding, I suppose. Finches are mentioned but 3 times. The Galapagos islands are mentioned 23 times, primarily in discussions on the uniqueness of species on the individual islands and their similarity to various mainland species and how the 'struggle for survival' may play a role:

In the Galapagos Archipelago, many even of the birds, though so well adapted for flying from island to island, are distinct on each; thus there are three closely-allied species of mocking-thrush, each confined to its own island. Now let us suppose the mocking-thrush of Chatham Island to be blown to Charles Island, which has its own mocking-thrush: why should it succeed in establishing itself there? We may safely infer that Charles Island is well stocked with its own species, for annually more eggs are laid there than can possibly be reared; and we may infer that the mocking-thrush peculiar to Charles Island is at least as well fitted for its home as is the species peculiar to Chatham Island.​
p. 402

Not sure why so many creationists misrepresent this whole issue.
Mutations virtually always just make something worse and more degraded over time.
Except when they don't.
At best they usually just offer cosmetic changes, like a simple shift in body color.
Sure, just cosmetic.

That's why textbooks love to talk about the colors of beetles and moths, and then jump to the ridiculous conclusion that the beetle and moth themselves were entirely created by the same process.
Right - better to jump to the completely fantasy-driven conclusion that they were created as-is by a tribal deity whose very existence is in question.
Such reasoning would be laughed at the world over if not for Evolution being the only narrative offering a place for people to doubt God, particularly the God of the Bible.
Right, you totally got it all worked out.
The only thing natural selection really does is filter out unhealthy mutants. You don't build new animals by culling unfit ones.
Neat assertion. Tell us all - what is your definition of "mutation".
The mystical Darwinian belief in natural selection as a grand intricate animal-designer is absurd.
Well now that you assert so, it must be the case.

But seeing as how you offer ZERO supporting evidence for your alternative, just some fantastic assertions, and there is a great deal of evidence supportive of that which you dismiss via strawmen and such, gosh, I am shocked that the scientific community the world over has not adopted your idiosyncratic and evidence-free alternative.

Get to work on the evidence for that "genetic programming" for these new phenotypes triggered by the environment; how these 'programs' for these new phenotypes are kept in check until they are 'triggered', etc.

I look forward to your paradigm-changing evidence that will absolutely not consist of calling evolution a religion and a series of unsupported stories..

And also please explain why we do not have roughly the same number of 'kinds' that were on the ark (for which there is no evidence, either) seeing as how according to your evidence-averse claims, should have simply been replaced as the originals adopted the same new phenotypes to adapt to similar environments.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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A lifeform's genetic program usually consists of several different potential phenotypes that can be loaded from environmental triggers.
Were you aware that the genomes of many organisms have been fully sequenced and no such alternative 'potential phenotypes' have yet been discovered?
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Correction: Biblical creation correctly shows the connection between the kinds. It's easy since there are only TWO kinds, His and Theirs. His refers to the temporal creatures which Lord God/Jesus made with His own Hands. Since they were formed from the ground, which was contaminated with darkness or DEATH after God made them APART from Himself in the beginning. Genesis 1:2 Anything apart from God is doomed to death. Luk 18:19

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? none is good, save One, that is, God.



Not so, since it is incomplete because it is "willingly ignorant" 2Pe 3:5 that Humans began on the world/heaven that THEN WAS, which was totally destroyed by the flood. 2 Peter 3:6 This FACT refutes the ToE.
Clueless ranting which has been demonstrated to be false is not helpful, it is trolling. Please stop.
 
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xianghua

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It is often claimed that if God created living things, he did so in a way to look like Evolution, as if trying to trick people into believing all things had evolved from a universal common ancestor.

This is because, based on their anatomical and molecular characteristics, life can usually be arranged in the pattern of a branching tree... thus the phrase "tree of life". Evolutionists claim that this pattern is strong evidence for their model... with the suggestion that God could have created in such a way where living things resist being organized in such a branching pattern.

....branching trees.... branching trees....

Here is a question for evolutionists:

It seems surprising that evolutionary processes would produce such an abundance of life (plants and trees) that physically emulate the very branching pattern of evolutionary common ancestry.
Do you think that is a strange coincidence?
Were plants and trees created in Evolution's image?
since even designed objects can be arrange in a tree shape no tree can be evidence for evolution:

phy5.png
 
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Ophiolite

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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Ophiolite

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why? a car in general is more similar to other car than to a truck. so all cars should group
togethe. we will end up with groups. like evolutionery tree.
Why don't you group the vehicles by engine type? Or manufacturer? Or number of axles? Or load capacity? Or colour? Or function? Or place of manufacture? Or design year? Or . . . . . . ?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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why? a car in general is more similar to other car than to a truck. so all cars should group
togethe. we will end up with groups. like evolutionery tree.

Because your example is worthless. All you're going is "that thing looks like a car, so it goes in the car group. That thing looks like a truck, so it goes in the truck group."
The cladograms in the evolutionary 'tree' show actual progression in species from basal to modern, and also showing where each group branches off.
Your 'idea' falls at the first hurdle which is that bikes came before cars. And chariots came before bikes or cars. And carts came before bikes or cars. And TRAINS came before either cars or bikes but after chariots and carts.
 
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Aman777

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I would happily concede a god knows more than me if you can show me a god exists (and it knows more than me.)

Easy since Genesis 1:28-31 is prophecy of events which take place AFTER Jesus returns to this Earth to rule for a thousand years. Prophecy tells us of FUTURE events, which have NOT taken place in the PAST. God told us more than 3k years ago which shows that He is more intelligent than even you UNLESS you would like to tell us the end from the beginning. Amen?
Isa 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure:
 
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46AND2

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I would happily concede a god knows more than me if you can show me a god exists (and it knows more than me.)

Easy since Genesis 1:28-31 is prophecy of events which take place AFTER Jesus returns to this Earth to rule for a thousand years. Prophecy tells us of FUTURE events, which have NOT taken place in the PAST. God told us more than 3k years ago which shows that He is more intelligent than even you UNLESS you would like to tell us the end from the beginning. Amen?
Isa 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure:

Um...are you really using an as yet unfulfilled "prophecy" to demonstrate that god exists? Did you not understand his challenge?
 
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pitabread

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why? a car in general is more similar to other car than to a truck. so all cars should group
togethe. we will end up with groups. like evolutionery tree.

Except they don't.

We've been over this several times in the past. Your claims about cars and trucks were demonstrated to be empirically false with respect to constructing phylogenetic trees.

So either:

A) You don't understand enough about phylogenetic trees to know why the above claim was shown to be wrong;

B) You can't remember any of those past discussions; or,

C) You just don't care.

Which is it?
 
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pitabread

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What criteria are employed to make that 'tree'?
In actual science, shared derived characters are employed.

FWIW, when xianghua first made this claim on this forum, I did an experiment constructing trees based on character matrices for cars and trucks (using Mesquite).

It turns out that cars and trucks don't necessarily fall into the neat groupings he thinks they do. And when constructing trees using different subsets of characteristics, I didn't get statistically convergent trees.
 
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