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Brain Disappoints Evolutionary Thoughts

Smilin

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Originally posted by ikester7579
 

O, but I thought yall knew it all. And don't kid me about learning. That's not what your here for. In fact, tell me what you learned here. I bet it's short and very demeaning of everyone that's christain here. Including the one's who run this website. So common lets here it.

 

I've learnt much in the past year I've been here...
That IS what I'm here for (as for the majority)... take some time to get to know people (christians and non-christians alike)

seesaw has NEVER demeaned anyone that I've known him...

You're being rude....
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by webboffin
So much bitterness in this thread.

The major problem I have with evolution and makes me want to dispell it entirely is because evolutionist insist on claiming that man came from monkey.

That's NOT what the theory teaches... go back and restudy it :)

(pssttt... I don't agree with the whole of the theory either... but you can't deny what has been proven)

When you learn what Evolutionary Science actually teaches.. then you'll have learned something... :)
 
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Smilin

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Originally posted by seesaw
It doesn't mock the bible at all. Does the bible tell every detail on how humans beings were made? God could have used evolution.


Evolution is the only scientific explanation for some biblical stories...
(If you wish to comment on my assertation... please visit my thread on the topic)

Smilin out
 
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Evolution is change - the only way change happens is a need and learning to fulfill that need. So instead of evolution, I prefer learning.

Humans have 'evolved' through learning how to adapt to the Earth and what we 'need' from it. The beginning of man, survival was his #1 thought (included is passing on his genes), so he learned new trades and used different tools to make his life more productive for survival. New ideas in sheltering, tools, and food kept us learning and adapting for life.

An animal adapts to it's environment in a similar fashion. A study done in England placed 14 wild foxes into captivity to prove the evolution of foxes/ wolves to dogs. After 17 generations, the foxes adapted to their captivity or environment and became more dog like. Their ears decreased in size, their coats thinned, and their tails lost the fur. They became (adapted) what their environment called for. Since they didn't rely on themselves for food or warmth, they lost the large ears and thick coats.

Another study said that man didn't come from ape because were complete except for a crucial gene. Therefore, inconclusively, that missing gene is the one key that proves that man and ape are NOT the same.

In man, I've heard throughout the generations our toes are decreasing in size because the usefulness of having large toes for traction is unneeded because of shoes. Now that's 'evolution' or 'adaption' because a way of life was implemented and a change is resulting.
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by brindlepit Evolution is change - the only way change happens is a need and learning to fulfill that need. So instead of evolution, I prefer learning.

That's a bit simplistic.  Evolution is change in populations of organisms.  It is change in their genes and the features those genes code form.  You have changed from birth, but that is not evolution; it's growth.

Humans have 'evolved' through learning how to adapt to the Earth and what we 'need' from it. The beginning of man, survival was his #1 thought (included is passing on his genes), so he learned new trades and used different tools to make his life more productive for survival. New ideas in sheltering, tools, and food kept us learning and adapting for life.

This is technology, and isn't evolution either.   

An animal adapts to it's environment in a similar fashion. A study done in England placed 14 wild foxes into captivity to prove the evolution of foxes/ wolves to dogs. After 17 generations, the foxes adapted to their captivity or environment and became more dog like. Their ears decreased in size, their coats thinned, and their tails lost the fur. They became (adapted) what their environment called for. Since they didn't rely on themselves for food or warmth, they lost the large ears and thick coats.

Can you cite the study, please?  This is artificial selection if you have described it correctly.  That is, humans play the role of the environment and select the variants they want.  But notice that the foxes themselves had no choices.

This is one of the biggest myths about evolution: that the individual has a choice in the matter.  He doesn't.  An individual either is lucky enough to be born with the genes to code for the adaptation or he's not.  If she's lucky, then those genes will enable him to compete for scarce resources, survive, and have more offspring than the unlucky individual.  Eventually, all the population will be descended from her and everyone will have those genes.   

Another study said that man didn't come from ape because were complete except for a crucial gene. Therefore, inconclusively, that missing gene is the one key that proves that man and ape are NOT the same.

 :scratch: What gene do you think is missing?  Also, remember that the number of genes expressed can increase or decrease.  Pseudogenes are genes that were once expressed but a mutation inserted a stop sequence and now they aren't.  Gene duplication makes new copies of genes that then evolve into new genes.

In man, I've heard throughout the generations our toes are decreasing in size because the usefulness of having large toes for traction is unneeded because of shoes.

A better study is Andean and Himalayan highlanders.  They are born with physical and physiological adaptations to living at very high altitude.

11: Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol 1999 Sep;124(1):1-17  Adaptation and conservation of physiological systems in the evolution of human hypoxia tolerance.
6: Hum Biol 2000 Feb;72(1):201-28 Tibetan and Andean patterns of adaptation to high-altitude hypoxia.

I doubt your toe example.  Even with shoes the toes are used to give you traction within the shoe.  From A. afarensis, our toes have decreased in length as we have been bipedal and no longer use our toes for gripping tree branches.  Those born with shorter toes could walk upright better, did better in the new environment, and had more kids.
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by brindlepit
Everything I stated about the primate, dog, and toes aren't from personal studies I've conducted, but are from reading material I respected sometime ago or at least, currently.

Yes, I'm looking for the English study now.

I know from biomechanical studies within orthopaedic surgery that the large toe is needed for walking.  Without it, even with ordinary shoes you can't walk.  Very special shoes are required and even then they don't work well.
 
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and I agree, however, the purpose was to show the little toe as the main subject - sorry for not clarifying.

Also, I do have a site that shows a study of wolves, isn't the same as I refered too, but it's an example nonetheless. I can't post it cause I need 15 posts, so I will PM it too you.
 
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lithium.

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Originally posted by Smilin
Evolution is the only scientific explanation for some biblical stories...
(If you wish to comment on my assertation... please visit my thread on the topic)

Smilin out

ok :)
 
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ikester7579

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Originally posted by lucaspa
You can read about it in Ronald Number's The Creationists.

Many states had laws against teaching evolution, Ikester.  In some states, since evolution was the accepted scientific theory, of course it was taught.

After the Scopes trial, Tennessee and the other states didn't change their laws. Evolution was still not taught in most American high schools. 

But in 1957 the Russians launched Sputnik.  Suddenly Americans felt inferior in science and demanded better science education and so the BCSE (Biological Committee Science Education) was formed to get Americans up to speed in biology. When the textbooks came out in 1963, they were filled with evolution.  Well, it took about 15 years for the creationists to catch on, but by 1974 the creationist movement was getting started.

 

That's funny, how can someone know what the Americans were thinking about being inferior when sputnik was launch? Was a poll taken? If so I'd like to see it. Sounds like another scientific story. Also there was a find that Got Evolution in schools. Since no one can seem to find out what it was, says to me that history has been changed again. Can anyone else tell me what it was? Maybe it got ommited from scientific books.  I give you a hint so it will be easier. It was a tooth. Not gonna tell you anymore. Lets see what yall can find out. The person who now owns this tooth has all the papers of authenticity and a news paper clipping telling the story of the find and how it was used as a proof of Evolution. Man, I can't believe yall don't know this.

 
 
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Arikay

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Well, sputnick wasnt lauched to long ago, im sure we have people who were alive back then. Do a bit of history research on the subject and you will find that there was a large space race going on during the cold war. The point of the space race was to prove who had superior technology. The launch proved that Russia's technology was superior than americans. Making us feel inferior.

well, I did ask you to tell us.

Are you talking about this: http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/LondonNews.html
A pigs tooth.

While doing the research to find conformation, I also found this:
http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/anthropology/sci.anthropology/archive/september-1996/0324.html

It took a lot of work to find more info about it, that wasnt from a creationist website (since I already have a source from one of those).

This find however, was made way before the Cold war, when science got a boost because of america trying to out build and out advance Russia.

Originally posted by ikester7579
 

That's funny, how can someone know what the Americans were thinking about being inferior when sputnik was launch? Was a poll taken? If so I'd like to see it. Sounds like another scientific story. Also there was a find that Got Evolution in schools. Since no one can seem to find out what it was, says to me that history has been changed again. Can anyone else tell me what it was? Maybe it got ommited from scientific books.  I give you a hint so it will be easier. It was a tooth. Not gonna tell you anymore. Lets see what yall can find out. The person who now owns this tooth has all the papers of authenticity and a news paper clipping telling the story of the find and how it was used as a proof of Evolution. Man, I can't believe yall don't know this.

 
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by ikester7579
That's funny, how can someone know what the Americans were thinking about being inferior when sputnik was launch? Was a poll taken
?

Yep. Also editorials, letters to the editor, congressional speeches, etc.  It's all documented in Numbers' The Creationists.

Also there was a find that Got Evolution in schools. Since no one can seem to find out what it was, says to me that history has been changed again. Can anyone else tell me what it was? Maybe it got ommited from scientific books.  I give you a hint so it will be easier. It was a tooth. Not gonna tell you anymore. Lets see what yall can find out. The person who now owns this tooth has all the papers of authenticity and a news paper clipping telling the story of the find and how it was used as a proof of Evolution. Man, I can't believe yall don't know this. 

First, the Scopes Trial didn't get evolution in schools.  The states with laws against teaching evolution didn't change them. Scopes was convicted, after all.  And the states that didn't have the laws were already teaching evolution.

You are referring to Nebraska Man.  This find is what triggered the anger of William Jennings Bryan and got him to be the lawyer for the prosecution at the Scopes Trial.  The scientist wrote a popular article and this angered Bryan, who wrote several rebuttals in Christian journals. The newspapers did their normal job of exaggerating scientific finds, but Nebraska Man never made it into testimony, because it was not "proof" of evolution.

In the end, of course, Nebraska Man was a mistake.  The paleontologist had misidentified a tooth from a pig as a human tooth.  It was an honest mistake, since the teeth of both species are very similar.  The paleontologist discovered the mistake by financing a second expedition to the site to look for more fossils.  Mostly because by that time he was suspicious of the tooth. They found a complete jaw this time, showing that the tooth was pig and not hominid.
 
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lucaspa

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Originally posted by ikester7579
I will read this tomarrow. Got to get some sleep. should have been in bed 3 hours ago. But this forum can get so interesting sometimes time just seems to fly. See ya tomarrow, that is if I can stay awake after staying up late lol.

While you are reading, try these websites:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_nebraska.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/wolfmellett.html

"Field work resumed in the spring of 1925 at the site where Cook had found the original <I>Hesperopithecus</I> tooth in 1917. It was material uncovered at the site during 1925 that undoubtedly sowed the seeds of doubt about the true possessor of the Nebraska tooth. As evidence accumulated in subsequent field seasons, Gregory became aware that, despite the tooth's uncanny superficial resemblance to an anthropoid molar, <I>Hesperopithecus</I> was probably an extinct peccary. Gregory announced his retraction in Science at the end of 1927. (Gregory, 1927) The self-correcting feature of science thereby aborted America's only entry in mankind's prehistoric lineage before Nebraska Man significantly affected opinions of most scientists regarding human evolution. "

"The consequences for science of the downfall of <I>Hesperopithecus</I> might have been more serious were it not for other substantial discoveries in the 1920's, especially <I>Australopithecus</I> and "<I>Sinanthropus</I>" (Peking Man), that helped shore up the argument for the evolution of humans from ape- like ancestors at a time when the concept of human evolution was being attacked by the likes of William Jennings Bryan.

In fact, Bryan played a pivotal role in the <I>Hesperopithecus</I> episode. At the end of a colorful political career, Bryan became an instant leader in the so-called Fundamentalist crusade against evolution in the early 1920's. In 1921, trying out arguments that would receive wider attention during the Scopes "monkey trial" in 1925, Bryan preached that, "The greatest enemy of the Bible is the numerous enemy, and the numerous enemy today is the believer in the Darwinian hypothesis that man is a lineal descendant of the lower animals." (Bryan, 1921, p. 19) "Darwin," Bryan continued, "gives us a family tree which begins in the water . . . and then traces the line of descent to European apes -- he does not even allow us the patriotic pleasure of descending from American apes." (1921, p. 39) Osborn, in his role as an established American defender of evolution, went after Bryan in a March 5, 1922 article in <CITE>The New York Times</CITE> (Osborn, 1922a). Osborn optimistically believed that, "If Mr. Bryan, with open heart and mind, would drop all his books and all the disputations among the doctors and study first-hand the simple archives of Nature, all his doubts would disappear; he would not lose his religion; <I>he would become an evolutionist</I>." Osborn's answer to Bryan was published just nine days before the <I>Hesperopithecus</I> tooth arrived at the American Museum from Nebraska. The tooth seemed to be the very evidence he needed -- and from Bryan's home state! Here, perhaps, was the <I>American</I> ape that Bryan had chauvinistically and sarcastically wished for. Osborn's glee must not have been entirely scientific as he studied the tooth from Cook. Perhaps the opportunity to undercut Bryan colored Osborn's analysis of the tooth and perhaps induced him to rush into print prematurely. "

"

<I>Hesperopithecus</I> was not mentioned by anyone during the course of the Scopes trial, although other major discoveries of fossil hominids were discussed from the stand and in written testimony. Recent claims by Hitching that "the <I>Hesperopithecus</I> tooth was proudly displayed [at the trial] as evidence that man had a long evolutionary past" (1982, p. 211) are simply untrue; it is equally false that "the trial that became a significant turning point in U.S. educational history . . . was steered towards its verdict by a pig's tooth." (Hitching, 1982, p. 212) "

"Today, with the evolutionary prehistory of humans firmly documented by African fossil discoveries beginning with <I>Australopithecus</I> in 1924, <I>Hesperopithecus</I> is little more than a peashooter in the creationists' arsenal. George Gaylord Simpson even wondered whether the whole matter needs re-airing -- "So even famous scientists make mistakes, as all humans do. Jove does nod. No one was hurt. No one was even misled for long. So what of it?" (pers. comm., 1983)

But this mistake involved mankind's origins, a topic that is inherently provocative, especially in the context of a creation/evolution conflict. Even after being corrected by scientists themselves, mistakes in descriptions of human ancestors are likely to be immortalized in the diatribes of the creationists. Whereas a few of the creationists' criticisms of the fossil evidence for human evolution are technically correct -- as in the case of <I>Hesperopithecus</I> -- they are often trivial. The reality of human evolution cannot be challenged by reference to one misidentified peccary tooth! "
 
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ikester7579

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Originally posted by Douglaangu
So Ike, because a theory is improved upon by removing false or incorrect data and evidence, its wrong?

Better tell that to the creationists who continue the blatent lie of the Paluxy prints, who're still sticking to them as 'proof' of a young earth.

Answer to first question: If it has to be corrected again and again. When do you know when it's right?

Answer to second question: Have you seen these prints? Or are you relying on someone elses thoughts on the subject. Like all those web sites put up to disprove it. Talk is cheap. Seeing is believing, and yes I have seen them. Besides, if they did not exist it would be easy to prove. Instead of using the old lets just discredit the guy and his findings game. They even went as far one one web site I went to to say the guy who found them went out during the night and craved one of the foot prints under a 3 ton slab of rock then put it back. Give me a break. What hogwash. And if this was true they could have him arrested for defacing land on state owned property.
 
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Arikay

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The thing is that you never know. Everytime you revise it and add evidence, it gets closer to being right. Even if its perfect and the exact way the universe works, you can never say that it is, because you can never know if there is some evidence somewhere in the future that may tweak it slightly. Which is why evolution will always be a scientific theory. However a scientific theory is much different than a personal theory and has a very high standard.

Creationism has also updated and changed its beliefs. Not too long ago, Micro evolution wasnt considered part of creationism, now it is.

Originally posted by ikester7579
Answer to first question: If it has to be corrected again and again. When do you know when it's right?

Answer to second question: Have you seen these prints? Or are you relying on someone elses thoughts on the subject. Like all those web sites put up to disprove it. Talk is cheap. Seeing is believing, and yes I have seen them. Besides, if they did not exist it would be easy to prove. Instead of using the old lets just discredit the guy and his findings game. They even went as far one one web site I went to to say the guy who found them went out during the night and craved one of the foot prints under a 3 ton slab of rock then put it back. Give me a break. What hogwash. And if this was true they could have him arrested for defacing land on state owned property.
 
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ikester7579

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Originally posted by Arikay
Creationism has also updated and changed its beliefs. Not too long ago, Micro evolution wasnt considered part of creationism, now it is.

Well only if you add micro evolution to God's word. For me, if it don't fit, it don't go. So don't base me with all the new stuff. I only accept what goes along. Just like you might accept what goes along with what you believe to be true.
 
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Arikay

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Ah, ic.

I guess I should have said, mainstream creationism.

Originally posted by ikester7579
Well only if you add micro evolution to God's word. For me, if it don't fit, it don't go. So don't base me with all the new stuff. I only accept what goes along. Just like you might accept what goes along with what you believe to be true.
 
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ikester7579

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Originally posted by Arikay
Ah, ic.

I guess I should have said, mainstream creationism.

&nbsp;

Yea, I know. Everybody thinks were all the same. Some of us stick to God's word only. I'm one of them. I do not accept what is always said unless I look into it first. And I do not commit to something unless I can find nothing wrong with it. The only person I have to impress is God. No one in this forum or world can get me to Heaven or keep me from going to Hell. Only God and his son Jesus. Going with the mainstream sounds more like high school. You remember when hanging around the cool kids and doing what the cool kids did like smoking, taking drugs etc... Must of us including myself have tried it. But we grow up and put child like things and ideas away. So I'm not trying to impress anyone here and I think it is the reason I butt heads with so many.
 
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