Bottners List

[Cajun Huguenot]

I need to do some research on him. I'll check out those books you listed above.

Thanks!

Calvin was a man of his times and to often his critics ignore that ever important fact. He was a Christian Humanist and one of the best educated men of his day.

He is seldom given credit for his attemps at Christian/Protestant unity. He even signed the Lutheran, Augsburg Confession. Today he is mostly known for his views on predestination, but unlike many of his followers, for him predestination fit into an overall theology and (though very important) was not the main thrust of his teaching.

I have been reading his letters. The more I read Calvin, the more I like the man.

Deo vindice,
Kenith

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

I hope we all hold a "high view " of her. The question is did Calvin pray to her or believe in her assumption???

That is the issue I suspect because before it was made dogma it was not as mandatory belief if you called your self Roman Catholic. That was the point of Bottners list of dates.

It's still not mandatory that we "pray to her."

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I hope we all hold a "high view " of her. The question is did Calvin pray to her or believe in her assumption???

Calvin did not think Mary could intercede for him nor did he believe in here assumption or her being without sin.

I have a VERY Roman Catholic family (Cajun French) and I attend RC Mass a good bit because of that and I like the liturgy of the Mass, but I can not in good faith return to the RCC because of things like Unum Sanctum, Some aspects of Trent, Vatican I, etc...

I do think a lot of the Evangelical vs. RCC debates are over mis-understandings and distortions of each others views, but there are very real issues that need to be discussed. I also think we ALL tend to so narrowly define the faith and too often break fellowship over matters that should not divide us.

For example: I think it is clear that ALL the early church held that Christ was trully present in the Supper , but they did not make an issue of HOW he was present. I think it was a major mistake for Rome to make Transubstantiation a test of orthodoxy. You can see what later became Calvin's view of the Supper in very early Church and you can see, not much later, the literalist view that was eventually explained in Aristotelian terms (i.e. transubstantiation).

We modern Evangelicals (like Roman Catholics) tend to condemn those who disagree with us on issues like the canonicity of the apographa and how (if at all) Christ is present in the Eucharist. But to do so is to condemn some of the great men of faith like Augustine, Anselm etc...(from the Catholic prespective we could add Jerome, and many others as well).

We have VERY real and serious disagreements, but we need to look at them in Context of all Church history (because there is only one church from Adam to the end of history) and not by our own time and place.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[rnmomof7]

It's still not mandatory that we "pray to her."

But as a test of faith you MUST believe in the assumption, that was not true until the 50's .

THAT was bottners point

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

But as a test of faith you MUST believe in the assumption, that was not true until the 50's .

THAT was bottners point

Yup, that wasn't made official until then.

True.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

But as a test of faith you MUST believe in the assumption, that was not true until the 50's .

THAT was bottners point

This is true. If you are a non-Roman Catholic and wish to join the RCC you must affirm ALL matters of doctrine.

I have a friend who recently joined the RCC and he was told that while he had to affirm these things, he did not really have to hold them. I met with him (at his request) and told him that if I were him I could NOT take such an oath knowing that I did not truly hold to what I was proclaiming. We had a very good visit, but he did not follow my council.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[rnmomof7]

Yup, that wasn't made official until then.

True.

Bottners list does not attempt to address the FIRST time things were thought or believed.

It addresses when things became dogma and a mandatory belief.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Bottners list does not attempt to address the FIRST time things were thought or believed.

It addresses when things became dogma and a mandatory belief.

That is an important qualification and with that qualification the list makes much more sense.

In Christ,
Kenith