Both Saturday and Sunday Sabbath are Wrong

[BABerean2]

Almost all of the volumes of books arguing Sunday vs. Saturday Sabbath fail to understand that the Israelites used a calendar using a combination of the lunar and solar cycle.

Sir Robert Anderson used the 360 day calendar in some of his arguments about Bible prophecy. However, he failed to understand the Israelites made regular corrections to keep the calendar aligned with the solar calendar. If this had not been done, the time of planting would have been in Fall instead of Spring in less than 40 years.

The following article does an excellent job of explaining the Sabbath during ancient times and uses scripture to validate it's claims.

http://christianitybeliefs.org/the-falling-away/the-sabbath-was-changed-to-sunday/

If you are committed to keeping the Old Testament Sabbath, you will need a lunar calendar.

.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Yeah, you know, those Jews can't get anything right can they? <double facepalm>

 

[BABerean2]

Sabbath Keeping on Christian Answers TV

Dale Ratzlaff

 

[BobRyan]

The Jews did - and still do - use the same 7 day cycle that we do.

All Christians who look for the first day of the week - as sunday are admitting that the seventh day of the week is still Saturday just as all Jews also admit.

And there is zero Bible support for changing the 7th day of the week to some other day - based on the lunar cycle.

 

[BobRyan]

No wonder New Covenant saints in both the OT and NT would have the "Law of God written on the mind and heart" --

we saw it in Jer 31:31-33 and in Heb 8


Jer 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”



Heb 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

The NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 demands that we look at the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers.

 

[BobRyan]

"Moses said" -- "Commandment of God" --- "Word of God" are all the "same thing" according to Christ.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

...Dale Ratzlaff

If this is the best one can do, is to cite the poor shoddy theology of such an one as Dale Ratzlaff, well, there might be hope for you still:

Deal with the following, then let us talk, seriously.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ing-mow-edness-i-tell-you-mow-edness.7853001/

Dale Ratzlaff, refuses to answer my emails sent to him.

 

[BABerean2]

The Jews did - and still do - use the same 7 day cycle that we do.

All Christians who look for the first day of the week - as sunday are admitting that the seventh day of the week is still Saturday just as all Jews also admit.

And there is zero Bible support for changing the 7th day of the week to some other day - based on the lunar cycle.

The Jews started using the present system in the 4th century.

“This change from the luni-solar to a fixed solar calendar occurred in Rome during the repressive measures which were enacted against ALL Jewish customs . . . during the reign of Emperor Hadrian. With the fall of the Nazarene headquarters…at Jerusalem, this new Roman calendar quickly spread throughout ‘Christendom.’ This new calendar not only replaced yearly festival dates such as Passover, but it also revamped t he concept of the week and its seventh day.” Iranaeus 2nd Century A.D.


“In the years following Clement of Alexandria’s time, an ominous change started to take place that was to radically change the Christian concept of the Sabbath.” Records the Encyclopedia Biblica: “This intimate connection between the week and the month was soon dissolved. It is certain that the week soon followed a development of its own, and it became the custom — without paying any regard to the days of the month (the luni-solar month) (Source: The MacMillan Company, 1899, p . 5290.)


Then, on page 4179 of the same encyclopedia, it says: “The introduction of the custom of celebrating the Sabbath every 7th day, irrespective of the relationship of the day to the moon’s phases, led to a complete separation from the ancient view of the Sabbath” (Source: Encyclopaedia Biblica, 1903 p. 5290.)


The present Jewish calendar was fixed (continuous weekly cycle) in the fourth century. (Source: Jewish Theological Seminary of America, Letter by Louis Finkelstein to Dr. L. E. Froom, Feb. 20, 1939. Regarding the present Jewish calendar.)


Under the reign of Constantius the persecutions of the Jews reached such a height that the computation of the (luni-solar) calendar (was) forbidden under pain of severe punishment. (Source: The Jewish Encyclopedia, “Calendar.”)



“The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle.” (“Holidays,” Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, p. 410.)


Declaring the new month by observation of the new moon, and the new year by the arrival of spring, can only be done by the Sanhedrin. In the time of Hillel II [4th century A.D.], the Romans prohibited this practice. Hillel II was therefore forced to institute his fixed calendar.” (Source: “The Jewish Calendar; Changing the Calendar,” www.torah.org.)

.

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

The Jews started using the present system in the 4th century.

“This change from the luni-solar to a fixed solar calendar occurred in Rome during the repressive measures which were enacted against ALL Jewish customs . . . during the reign of Emperor Hadrian. With the fall of the Nazarene headquarters…at Jerusalem, this new Roman calendar quickly spread throughout ‘Christendom.’ This new calendar not only replaced yearly festival dates such as Passover, but it also revamped t he concept of the week and its seventh day.” Iranaeus 2nd Century A.D.

This 'quote', as is, has no source material in any place it is given online.

To merely say it comes from "Irenaeus", without an actual source [ie book, page, linked reference, etc] and to merely assume its authenticity [of/to Irenaeus] in the face of the complete lack of such source, is poor research.

Therefore, please demonstrate immediately where this quotation, in original, in its wholeness comes from in Irenaeus, or retract it at once. Search the writings of Irenaeus, and nothing even remotely compares to it, and you can search in Hadrian's [works in of which he is mentioned], Philo's, Epiphaneus, etc. It will not be found.

The closest I came to the actual 'author' of the quote is from a 'David Clark' [and since he has no quotations on it, I assume he wrote it] - http://www.essene.com/Church/ShawuiCalendar.htm

Here is the David Clark quotation [not Irenaeus] in full:

"The groundwork for this supplanting of the true calendar, suggests the ancient historian Iranaeus, begun in Roman with a Bishop Sixtus (c.a. A.D. 116-c.a. 126). According to Iraneus, Sixtus was the first to celebrate a Sunday Easter in Rome instead of the traditional Nisan 15 [full moon] date on the lunar [Shawui] calendar. This change from the lun-i-solar to a fixed solar calendar occured in Rome during the repressive measures which were enacted against all Jewish customs and practices, including the lunar calendar, during Emperor Hadrian's reign. With the fall of the Nasarene headquarters in the Essene Temple at Jerusalem, this new Roman calendar quickly spread thruout "Christiandom". This new calendar not only replaced yearly festival dates such as Passover, but it also revamped the concept of the week and its seventh day."​

Please notice, that this David Clark is the one which is saying it, but provides no sources of any kind of Irenaeus saying it.

Moreso, it says nothing about the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God, being calendated from the lunar cycles. If you would peruse the link I provided it is demonstrated in full, that it never has been calendated from lunar cycles, and cannot be.

You have just demonstrated poor research of a cut/paste job from [minimally] second-hand, if not third or fourth-hand information that is egregiously erroneous. It seems you are not the only one passing this erroneous forgery around on the internet, and passing it off as Irenaeus, when in fact it is no more than the mistaken theology of David Clark [whomsoever he is].

​

“In the years following Clement of Alexandria’s time, an ominous change started to take place that was to radically change the Christian concept of the Sabbath.” Records the Encyclopedia Biblica: “This intimate connection between the week and the month was soon dissolved. It is certain that the week soon followed a development of its own, and it became the custom — without paying any regard to the days of the month (the luni-solar month) (Source: The MacMillan Company, 1899, p . 5290.)

This so-called source, is a work of biblical Criticism, which means it does not substantiate itself from a scriptural P.O.V. It is a "critical" work, which does not lay its faith in what the scripture plainly says of itself, but seeks to identify through the lens of [clumsy] 'historical research', 'theories', 'hypotheses' and the corrupted minds of men ["scholars, like the corrupted scribes of scripture in Jesus' day, who are patterned after the serpent, "Yea, hath God said ..."] who doubt the plain veracity of God's Holy words as Truth, as they are plainly given therein.

Encyclopaedia Biblica A Critical Dictionary of the Literary, Political and Religious History; The Archaeology, Geography, And Natural History of the Bible. Edited by The Rev. T. K. Cheyne, M.A. D.D. Oriel Professor of the Interpretation of Holy Scripture at Oxford and Formerly Fellow of Balliol College, Canon of Rochester And J. Sutherland Black, M.A. LL.D. formerly Assistant Editor of the 'Encyclopaedia Britannica'; London: Adam and Charles Black, MDCCCXCIC; Macmillan, 1899 - https://books.google.com/books?id=GdYMAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

and in this case for "Sabbath" is "volume IV [4], Q to Z" [1903] - https://books.google.com/books?id=5Hw_AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

says in its [volume I] very "PREFACE" that,

"The idea of preparing a new Dictionary of the Bible on critical lines ...

... international biblical criticism ...

... critical results ...

... More and more, Robertson Smith, like other contemporary scholars, saw the necessity of revising old work on the basis of a more critical, and, in a certain sense, more philosophical treatment of details. ...

... a critical Biblical Dictionary ...

...The Bible Dictionary which he contemplated was no mere collection of useful miscellanea, but a survey of the contents of the Bible, as illuminated by criticism -- a criticism which identifies the cause of religion with that of historical ...

... The importance of the newer view of the Bible to the Christian community, and the fundamental principles of the newer biblical criticism, have been so ably and so persuasively set forth by Prof. Robertson Smith ...

... It will also be doubtless found that on large questions different writers have sometimes proposed different theories and hypotheses. The sympathies of the editors are, upon the whole, with what is commonly known as 'advanced' criticism ...

... the literary and historical criticism of the New Testament is by no means as far advanced as that of the Old Testament. ..."

etc, etc.

On Section "Sabbath" [beginning page 4173, internal], it begins in part "[Page 4176, internal] 5. Pre-exilic and post-exilic Sabbath", that:

"The historical results of criticism may be thus summarized. ..." [Page 4176, internal] - https://books.google.com/books?id=GdYMAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

...Then, on page 4179 of the same encyclopedia, it says: “The introduction of the custom of celebrating the Sabbath every 7th day, irrespective of the relationship of the day to the moon’s phases, led to a complete separation from the ancient view of the Sabbath” (Source: Encyclopaedia Biblica, 1903 p. 5290.)

See the above sourced documentation, for this faithless "critical" work, after the method of the Jesuits.

That particular source [which is actually on page 4180, not 4179, which means you did not bother to read the actual source material at all, and just copy/pasted someone else poor research [please say you will cease to do this, I had to do so a long time ago myself]], continues by saying just after your quotation,

"... "... [page 4180] [in section '7. The Babylonian and Assyrian Sabbath'; page 4179-4180] Hence the position of the Sabbath in the Priestly Code. The field, however, is still open for further investigation. ...[page 4180]" - https://books.google.com/books?id=5Hw_AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false​

Obviously, the writers bought into the whole erroneous JEPD critical theory.

Jesus said, "Moses."

The present Jewish calendar was fixed (continuous weekly cycle) in the fourth century. (Source: Jewish Theological Seminary of America, Letter by Louis Finkelstein to Dr. L. E. Froom, Feb. 20, 1939. Regarding the present Jewish calendar.)

Under the reign of Constantius the persecutions of the Jews reached such a height that the computation of the (luni-solar) calendar (was) forbidden under pain of severe punishment. (Source: The Jewish Encyclopedia, “Calendar.”)

“The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle.” (“Holidays,” Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, p. 410.)

Declaring the new month by observation of the new moon, and the new year by the arrival of spring, can only be done by the Sanhedrin. In the time of Hillel II [4th century A.D.], the Romans prohibited this practice. Hillel II was therefore forced to institute his fixed calendar.” (Source: “The Jewish Calendar; Changing the Calendar,” www.torah.org.)

Your evidence is misleading:

[3] The so-called 'Higher Critical' Sources, which many attempt to utilize in their 'proof' of the Lunarian 'sabbath' cycles, all the while that they are claiming to keep to the God-inspiredness of Scriptures, and while that they are claiming to believe it as their ultimate source for their faith/doctrine/practice, and yet when they see it cannot be found, neither substantiated in the Scripture they readily turn to the following as their actual foundation:

Let's take a closer look at those so-called sources:

Encyclopaedia Biblica A Critical Dictionary of the Literary, Political and Religious History, The Archaeology, Geography And Natural History Of The Bible; Edited by The Rev. T. K. Cheyne, D.Litt., D.D. Oriel Professor of the Interpretation of Holy Scripture at Oxford and Formerly Fellow of Balliol College; Canon of Rochester and J. Sutherland Black, M.A., LL.D. Formerly Assistant Editor of the 'Encyclopedia Britannica' Volume IV; Q to Z. New York, The Macmillan Company; London: Adam and Charles Black. 1903. - https://archive.org/details/Encyclop...ca_Vol_I_to_IV
​

It is a "Critical" Dictionary. In article "Sabbath" alone,

"... [Page 4175] modern criticism..." [Page 4175]
​

and

"... [Page 4176] The historical results of criticism may be thus summarized. ..." [Page 4176].
​

In it, on article "Sabbath", it also says,

"... [Page 4173] There is a [Page 4173-4174] traditional saying of Jesus which may express his Janus-like habit of mind as regards the Sabbath. ..." [Pages 4173-4174] - https://archive.org/stream/Encyclopa.../n125/mode/1up
​

The "Critical" Dictionary, just equated Jesus with Janus. Janus is the Pagan God, dual [two]-face, one forward, the other backwards.

It is written of God/Jesus,

"For I am the LORD, I change not …" Malachi 3:6 KJV

“... thou art the same ...” Hebrews 1:12 KJV; citing Psalms 102:27.

Hebrews 13:8 KJV – [8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
​

Etc...

This same "Critical" Dictionary, also says in the same article,

"[Page 4174] The saying in the Oxyrhynchus papyrus-fragment discovered in 1897. 3 'if you do not keep the Sabbath you will not see the Father' ... may also very well have been actually spoken by Jesus in its literal sense, as the expression of the same conservative temper as we find in Mt.5:17-19,and against noisy fanatics who thought to do honour to their master by showing contempt for the day. ..." [Page 4173-4174] - https://archive.org/stream/Encyclopa.../n125/mode/1up
​

Further this "Critical" Dictionary says,

"... [Page 4175] That the earliest Christians in Palestine observed the Sabbath is nowhere indeed expressly said, 1 but is certainly to be assumed. The silence of Acts is not to be taken as a proof of the non-observance, but contrariwise as a proof that is was observed as a matter of course." [Page 4175] - https://archive.org/stream/Encyclopa.../n126/mode/1up
​

The Critical work, denies the Inspiredness of the Scriptures, and instead places upon it a human only framework, and indeed attempts [and fails] to connect the Sabbath of the LORD thy God, with the "Hindus", "Buddhism" and linking it, "From this point of view..." [Page 4178] and again to “Babylonian” [even “... Babylonian origin of the Sabbath ...” [Page 4180]] and “Assyrian” 'sabbaths' and not from actual Scripture.

Furthermore, the article nearing conclusion states this amazingly, in opposition to the Lunarian 'sabbath' ideology,

"... [Page 4180] The introduction, in consequence of profound changes in religious conceptions among the Hebrews, of the custom of celebrating the Sabbath every seventh day, irrespective of the relationship of the day to the moon's phases, ..." [Page 4180] - https://archive.org/stream/Encyclopa.../n128/mode/1up
​

Amazingly it all ends with,

"... [Page 4180] The field, however, is still open for further investigation. ..." [Page 4180].
​

Yet another “Critical” section - http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...bbath#anchor11

To which no faithful Torah/Talmudic Jew would consider as in any way reliable. This was also refuted here - http://www.karaitejudaism.org/talks/...dar_Issues.htm

For instance, many cite the Jewish Encyclopedia, and yet they ignore under what sections their Lunarian 'sabbath' connections actually come from: the so-called 'Higher Criticism', which means they do not take the Bible as it reads, but attempt to dismantle it:

In the preface of the Jewish Encyclopedia we find an explanation for offering the critical view which links the Sabbath with the moon. It is rather self explanatory:

“There are those who hold to the literal inspiration, while others reject this view and are of the opinion that the circumstances under which the various texts were produced can be ascertained by what is known as the Higher Criticism. It seemed appropriate in the more important Biblical articles to distinguish sharply between these two points of view, and to give in separate paragraphs the actual data of the Masoretic text and the critical views regarding them. ... The plan was adopted of treating the more important Biblical articles under the three heads of (a) Biblical Data, giving, without comment or separation of "sources," the statements of the text; (b) Rabbinical Literature, giving the interpretation placed upon Biblical facts by the Talmud, Midrash, and later Jewish literature; (c) Critical View, stating concisely the opinions held by the so-called Higher Criticism as to the sources and validity of the Biblical statements.” [Emphasis added] The Jewish Encyclopedia, Preface (Preface - JewishEncyclopedia.com)
​

This admission is very revealing. The Lunar Sabbath theory is based on higher criticism; it is the critical view.

"Higher Criticism", was long ago refuted as anti-Scriptural humanism, masquerading as Study, yet such “criticism” is even the 'wisdom of this world', which is foolishness - http://revelation1412.org/files/1913...yclopaedia.pdf

 

[BobRyan]

The Jews started using the present system in the 4th century.

“This change from the luni-solar to a fixed solar calendar occurred in Rome during the repressive measures which were enacted against ALL Jewish customs . . . during the reign of Emperor Hadrian. With the fall of the Nazarene headquarters…at Jerusalem, this new Roman calendar quickly spread throughout ‘Christendom.’ This new calendar not only replaced yearly festival dates such as Passover, but it also revamped t he concept of the week and its seventh day.” Iranaeus 2nd Century A.D.

You are confusing the method for defining years - with the 7 day week. There is no such thing as a change to the 7 day week in Israel happening in the 4th century.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Languages where the 7th day of the week -- our Saturday - is Sabbath.
n 108 of the 160 languages of mankind, the seventh day is called "the Sabbath"!

Arabic: Sabet

Armenian: Shabat

Bosnian: Subota

Bulgarian: Sabota

Corsican: Sàbatu

Croatian: Subota

Czech: Sobota

Georgian: Sabati

Greek: Savvato

Indonesian: Sabtu

Italian: Sabato

Latin: Sabbatum

Maltese: is-Sibt

Polish: Sobota

Portuguese: S ábado

Romanian: Sambata

Russian: Subbota

Serbian: Subota

Slovak: Sobota

Slovene: Sobota

Somali: Sabti

Spanish: Sabado

Sudanese: Saptu

Ukranian: Subota

 

[BobRyan]

Days of the week have never changed.

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-re...ervatory-statement-on-changes-in-weekly-cycle

Sabbath in the 4th century A.D.
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-history/sabbath-through-the-centuries/id/1002/4th-century

 

[BABerean2]

You are confusing the method for defining years - with the 7 day week. There is no such thing as a change to the 7 day week in Israel happening in the 4th century.

in Christ,

Bob

The problems with using the sun to define the Sabbath come into focus at the International Dateline.

Those a few miles apart on opposite sides of the dateline are not observing the same Sabbath, because they are using something defined by man as the source of their Sabbath observance.
.

 

[BobRyan]

The problems with using the sun to define the Sabbath come into focus at the International Dateline.

There is no Bible text arguing that this is a problem for the 4th Commandment.

I think we all agree on that.

And I believe in testing all doctrine "sola scriptura".

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

The problems with using the sun to define the Sabbath come into focus at the International Dateline.

There is no issue here, since the Scripture itself details that "the day" changes from any given day to the next day at the setting of the sun, in any given location upon the spheroid earth. God made it this way from Day 1.

Point [1]: The [Def. art.] Sabbath, being the [Def. art.] 7th Day, is "made" [Creation] for "the [Def. art.] man", which "man" is anthropos, and in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, etc is "Adam" and thus all mankind in him:

Mark 2:27 KJV - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for ["the", "ton" [T-ASM]] man, and not ["the", "o" [T-NSM]] man for the sabbath: [* the definite article "the" is in the Greek manuscripts]
​

Point [2]: God/Jesus "made" the Earth Round [Spherical]:

Isaiah 40:22 KJV - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
​

Point [3]: The 'day' [24 hrs] begins with "evening", followed by "morning", unto the next "evening":

Genesis 1:15 KJV - And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:5 KJV - [5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Job 38:12 KJV - [12] Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

Judges 19:9, 25 KJV - [9] And when the man rose up to depart, he, and his concubine, and his servant, his father in law, the damsel's father, said unto him, Behold, now the day draweth toward evening, I pray you tarry all night: behold, the day groweth to an end, lodge here, that thine heart may be merry; and to morrow get you early on your way, that thou mayest go home. ... [25] But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

Mark 1:32 KJV - [32] And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

Luke 1:78 KJV - [78] Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

* Jesus is called the "Sun of Righteousness" which would "arise" - Malachi 4:2, etc

See also Genesis 1:8, 13,19, 23,31; Exodus 16:8; Daniel 8:26; etc

John 11:9 KJV - Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
​

Point 4: "Evening" truly begins when the "sun" sets:

Genesis 28:11 KJV - And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.

Mark 1:32 KJV - And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.
​

Point 5: "Morning" is a "sun" rise:

Judges 9:33 KJV - And it shall be, that in the morning, as soon as the sun is up, thou shalt rise early, and set upon the city: and, behold, when he and the people that is with him come out against thee, then mayest thou do to them as thou shalt find occasion.
​

Point 6: God kept the First Sabbath, which He Made for the man:

Genesis 2:1 KJV - Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Genesis 2:2 KJV - And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Genesis 2:3 KJV - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exodus 20:8 KJV - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exodus 20:9 KJV - Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exodus 20:10 KJV - But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:

Exodus 20:11 KJV - For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Leviticus 23:3 KJV - Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Deuteronomy 5:12 KJV - Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deuteronomy 5:13 KJV - Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deuteronomy 5:14 KJV - But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ***, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deuteronomy 5:15 KJV - And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Hebrews 4:4 KJV - For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Hebrews 4:5 KJV - And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Hebrews 4:6 KJV - Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Hebrews 4:7 KJV - Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Hebrews 4:8 KJV - For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:9 KJV - There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Hebrews 4:10 KJV - For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

Hebrews 4:11 KJV - Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
​

Point 7: Mankind was to multiply and "fill the earth":

Genesis 1:27 KJV - So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 1:28 KJV - And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
​

Point 8: Mankind was eventually "scatter[ed]" over the face of the earth after the Tower of Babel and the Global Flood of Noah:

Genesis 11:8 KJV - So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Genesis 11:9 KJV - Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
​

Point 9: The 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God, has not been lost in history, for God has preserved it, even unto a "thousand generations" [Deuteronomy 7:9; 1 Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 105:8], and Jesus Himself kept the right day in the right manner [John 15:10], for He sinned not [2 Corinthians 5:21, etc], and sin is the transgression of the Law [1 John 3:4], and many others after Him, even throughout history [as some historical sources have already been cited, I will leave it at those for now]:

Luke 23:56 KJV - And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Acts 13:14 KJV - But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Acts 13:27 KJV - For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Acts 13:42 KJV - And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 KJV - And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 KJV - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Acts 16:13 KJV - And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Acts 17:2 KJV - And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4 KJV - And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Revelation 1:10 KJV - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
​

etc, etc. Therefore, the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God has come down to all of us even after all these years.

Since the world/earth is round, the days come and go as the "sun" 'rises' or 'sets', and comes to each one of us where we are upon the earth, since we are all now scattered over its whole surface. "The Sabbath was made for [the] man", and thus so made to be a blessing to the individuals which keep it unto God, yet it will come relative to the individual persons in the respective locations upon the spheroid earth. For instance, if 1 person is in United States, and 2 person is in India, the Sabbath comes to each person in their respective positions, because the earth is round, and thus the "day" begins for one of the persons earlier than that of the other.

We can know from the scattering of the dispora of the Jews, and also of the Christians from Jerusalem, that the 7th Day Sabbath continued to be kept in those countries wherein they came unto according to the standard weeks time [7 days], and thus spread from Jerusalem westward [towards England, etc] and eastward [towards China, etc]. The 7th Day [the Sabbath of the LORD thy God] that comes to Jerusalem [of earth] is still the same as then. The Sunday [first [day] of the week] that comes to Rome is the same as it was then. The two days are still next to each other, even as they are in the United States, wherein many Christians have come to.

The Bible has the answer to every question.

Those a few miles apart on opposite sides of the dateline are not observing the same Sabbath, because they are using something defined by man as the source of their Sabbath observance.

The conclusion that those a "few miles apart" are not observing the "same Sabbath" is incorrect. The Sabbath does not change in its position in the 7 day cycle God set at the beginning [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God] [repeat] That which changes is man's relative position upon the earth in regard those hours. For instance, a person in Australia will be able to enter into the Sabbath at a differing hour than those say in American Samoa [ie closer to the United States, on this side of the international day-line.] Let's say I live in the United States, and live on the West Coast, closest to the Pacific Ocean. I am in those hours when the sun is 'up' and 'down', but should I travel, either West or East, I will have to adjust to the placement of the Sun in those locations. The day itself [whichever it is of the 7, in its position in the 7 day cycle from Creation] has not changed, but my location upon the earth, relative to the suns position has.

To say that the day-line is entirely defined by man, is not entirely correct, since there is a natural dayline that occurs from simple revolution of the earth. Mankind's involvment comes into the picture when a general understanding of this dayline comes nearer to those places which are remote, at sea [Tonga, Samoa, etc],and they adjust to either one side of the 'line' or to the other, to which ever works best for that nation.

 

[BABerean2]

To say that the day-line is entirely defined by man, is not entirely correct, since there is a natural dayline that occurs from simple revolution of the earth. Mankind's involvment comes into the picture when a general understanding of this dayline comes nearer to those places which are remote, at sea [Tonga, Samoa, etc],and they adjust to either one side of the 'line' or to the other, to which ever works best for that nation.

I think you may be missing something here.

Tonga and American Samoa are only a few miles apart, however they are not on the same date.
Therefore, when the sun goes down for Sabbath at American Samoa the sun will go down at Tonga a few minutes later, but it will not be the same day of the week.

International Dateline
http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/dateline.htm

.

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

I think you may be missing something here.

No, I did not miss anything. Please re-read what was given more carefully.

Tonga and American Samoa are only a few miles apart, however they are not on the same date.

Yes, Tonga [and also Western Samoa] and American Samoa are only a few miles apart [along with a few other islands out there, and even Australia, New Zealand, Tazmania, a bit further away]. They do not need to be on the same "date" [which is a differing calculation than that of the fixed 7 day cycle] at all times, just as those in the United States do not need to be on the same date at all times as those in England, Germany, Russia, China, Australia, etc. They are however on the same date for a few hours amongst them.

You presently seem to have a misunderstanding of the function of the day-line itself.

Each island has designated themselves to either side of the natural day-line [in this instance a more specific man-involved dissection] that occurs, simply by the revolution of the earth and position of the sun. One island, being on one side of the day line will enter into the day first, and sunset first, under the same sun, as the other island has chosen to be on the other side of the day-line, and will experience the sunrise last and sunset last, the hours between them of any given day [24 hr period] will still coincide for a time, though not at all times. Notice, though that the day itself is not moved from its position in the 7 day cycle at all, only the peoples position relative to the sun and to one another.

If we threw out the dayline altogether [sun] as some would want us to [obviously a dayline exists in the world], and went with the erroneous 'lunar sabbath' [moon] debacle, they would have a real [orbital] issue, from a northern and southern hemisphere, being as the appearance of the moon varies from north to south and continent to continent [just consider that in some parts of the world, an eclipse/or phase of the moon appears differently depending on location] - http://www.worldmoonproject.org/attachments/article/82/Southern_Northern Hemisphere Observations.pdf. or - http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/time/moon/hemispheres.html

A waning moon is not the same as the waxing moon. People in Canada, Northern Russia, Alaska, do not see the same phase as Argentina, Australia, etc.

Their problem is real [a whole differing part of the month], where as the dayline is not any problem at all when the evidence is actually considered, seeing as the days will be shared for a few hours.

Therefore, when the sun goes down for Sabbath at American Samoa the sun will go down at Tonga a few minutes later, but it will not be the same day of the week.

See above. One Island experienced the day already, while the other is finishing that day, getting ready to follow the other into the next day. Again, the day itself is not altered, nor changed, only their respective position on earth to the sun, and to each other. The reason for this is because of their positions to the dayline itself, being just on the either side of it, next to each others position upon the globe. They [as many] travel back and forth just fine and adjust to the day that they are now entering into. Notice, the people move, the day does not.

International Dateline
http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/dateline.htm

Yes, thank you for the link, I have visited it many times before. I would suggest you consider looking at it more closely.

 

[BABerean2]

Each island has designated themselves to either side of the natural day-line [in this instance a more specific man-involved dissection] that occurs

First of all, if humans get to choose which side of the date line they are on it is not a decision made by God from the foundation of the world.

And secondly it is not a straight line, therefore it is not just about the rotation of the earth.

One group of people could be celebrating Sabbath and another group of people directly North or South of them could be celebrating Sabbath on a different day. Therefore, it is a decision made by men.

Kosher Travel Guide
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline2.htm
.

 

[Acts24Fourteen]

First of all, if humans get to choose which side of the date line they are on it is not a decision made by God from the foundation of the world.

God has given choice to men [mankind] in some [not all] things. As a for instance, men [individuals] may choose to fast on certain days, of their own choosing, in their relationship to God, on any given day of the week, or month, or year. Others [individuals] may in the same day, month or year, choose to celebrate and feast unto the LORD on those same days or on others. Both groups of individuals may even be dwelling in the same house [location] at the same time doing the two differing things.

God, from the beginning gave dominion of the earth to Adam [then to Noah], then to Christ Jesus [Second/Last Adam]. He told them [Adam/Eve] to multiply and replenish [fill] the earth:

Genesis 1:28 KJV - And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.​

Adam/Eve began in the Garden of Eden. Their children could then go oout from them and fill the whole earth. Some would go "east", some would go "west", some go "south" and some go "north", as they chose in God's allowance. It is not evil, nor is it transgression to choose in that allowance to end up being on differing sides of even the natural day line, from Creation.

Mankind, through marriage and migration could go where they would, in God's allowance:

Genesis 2:24 KJV - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.​

We even see the earth being "filled" by men [though with violence] in the days of Noah, see Genesis 6:11 and Genesis 6:13.

Filling the earth and being in differing portions, and on opposite sides of the earth and natural day-line [from Creation] is no violation of anything, but it is a fulfillment of God's commandment to "replenish" [fill] the earth.

This does not violate anything God has given in His word [see Romans 14, among others]. Especially at the tower of Babel, we see mankind being "scattered" by God, over all the earth, even as He had wanted it from Creation [Genesis 11:4; Genesis 11:8].

If men chose to go in any one of the four directions, in the allowance of God, that was their freedom to do so.

As a P.S., and as an aside, mankind has other lines, not just the international day-line. We also have, especially in large continents, like the Americas and United States therein, have multiple lines, like Pacific Time, Mountain Time, Standard Time, Eastern Time, as well as Daylights saving Time. Not all the states follow a simple straight line, and not all states in the United States follow the daylights saving times. These do not really affect the days in their order either.

And secondly it is not a straight line, therefore it is not just about the rotation of the earth.

Yes, I understand the international day-line is not a straight line [thus the human dissection at certain specific remote locales, like Tonga, Samoa, etc]. This line does not have to be "straight", as demonstrated in my previous replies. Since whether "straight" or as it currently is, bending to the service of mankind in daily life, in the allowance of God, does not alter a single day in the position of the 7 day Cycle from Creation. Again, notice that from the beginning mankind was given dominion over the earth and the things therein. Adam was "crowned" King [in stewardship under God, being owner]. Thus we see Jesus say, that "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". Though mankind could not ever change the Commandment, neither the specific day [the 7th Day] therein, they could end up in differing parts of the world, or on opposing sides of the natural day-line, or a more minutely man-dissected one [in the rare cases of Tonga, Samoa, etc], in the allowance of God. This, as demonstrated does not alter the day, it merely allows for mankind to be in differing parts of the world, experiencing that day where they are positioned under the sun and from one another. There is no sin in it, nor evil.

However, some of mankind, has come to some confusion, due to satan's misleading information in regards to it. Some persons have a hard time wrapping their head around invisible [abstract] things, like numbers.

One group of people could be celebrating Sabbath and another group of people directly North or South of them could be celebrating Sabbath on a different day. Therefore, it is a decision made by men.

Again, that is the misunderstanding by yourself. They are not celebrating Sabbath on a different day. It is simply the Sabbath in their respective locations due to the day-line. It is no different than the United States celebrating Sabbath [Pac. time] and Australia then [after so many hours Pac. time] celebrating theirs [Aus. time]. It is the same Day, the 7th Day, the Sabbath, but yet, the two countries will be seen to enter into the 7th Day the Sabbath in their respective locations, at whenever the sun goes down therein. It is the same Sabbath day, the same 7th Day. The one island [Western Samoa; aka "Samoa"] that is celebrating Sabbath this weeks end will be celebrating it on the 7th Day, the 24th of October [beginning at 'friday' [23rd] sundown' where they are], being the first to see sunset. The other Islands [American Samoa], being on the other side of the day line, are a 'day' [so many hours] behind, and will have to wait until their sundown comes [being the last in line to see sunset], which to them will also be the 7th Day, October 24th [same as other].

Kosher Travel Guide

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline2.htm

Again, thank you for the link, but you are still not addressing my points made, and I still think you have some confusion about the line itself and time in general, especially in relation to the sun, earth and persons all about upon it.

 

[BABerean2]

Again, thank you for the link, but you are still not addressing my points made, and I still think you have some confusion about the line itself and time in general, especially in relation to the sun, earth and persons all about upon it.
googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1445020441508-1'); });

If you look at the map in the Kosher travel guide, you will see there is no clear direction to the actual Sabbath date in an area from eastern Asia all the way to Alaska. There are several different opinions given in the Kosher Travel Guide as to which one is the actual Sabbath date.

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline2.htm

Being a retired science teacher with an interest in astronomy, I have the basic knowledge needed to understand the relationship between the motions of the sun, moon, and earth in determining time of day, etc.
.