Born This Way

[returntosender]

Really?
I'm talking about sexuality, not gender.
Does anyone choose to fancy boys or girls; to have feelings for the same, or opposite, gender? Can someone who is happily married choose to go and sleep with a woman; or someone who is gay choose to passionately kiss someone of the opposite gender, and enjoy it?
If even adults can't do that, how likely is it that children will be able to?

You are bringing gender into it not me.

 

[Strong in Him]

You are bringing gender into it not me.

No, I asked if anyone can really choose their sexuality. You replied that many seem to.
People can choose to change gender, but I don't believe we can choose whether to feel attracted to either the same, or the opposite, sex.
Being attracted to someone, and falling in love is something that just happens. I don't know of anyone who has at down to work out, logically, which gender they want to be attracted to and be in a relationship with.

 

[Strong in Him]

My mistake, thanks for your reply.

No problem.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

... I don't believe we can choose whether to feel attracted to either the same, or the opposite, sex.
Being attracted to someone, and falling in love is something that just happens. I don't know of anyone who has at down to work out, logically, which gender they want to be attracted to and be in a relationship with.

This was brought into religion by loud mouths around 1980 to seek political power, because their associates were already normalising predation.

 

[Strong in Him]

This was brought into religion by loud mouths around 1980 to seek political power, because their associates were already normalising predation.

??

 

[MehGuy]

I do believe there are probably genetic components regarding many nasty attractions, like pedophiles and those with serial killer/rapist tendencies. These people shouldn't be viewed evil as a default for they didn't choose these attractions; but if they do act on them, I see no reason for society to tolerate such behavior and they should be locked up for the safety of the public.

Although I must say, I don't understand this knee jerk reaction. If someone proposes something might have natural origins many people automatically assume that you must be condoning it. No.. I see this kind of mindset played out against evolutionary psychology. I forget his name, but during the late 80s or early 90s there was an evolutionary psychologist who gave a talk about men who rape and its possible evolutionary origins. I believe feminists gave this man death threats and they actually had to have police officers attend the talk just in case any violence broke out. This guy wasn't condoning rape. His premise might have even been wrong, but the reactionary response he got for simply stating rape might have evolutionary causes was ridiculous. Which is sad, because if some of these tendencies do come natural with people, not exploring all the possibilities will only hinder our ability to help them deal with their dark attractions and hopefully not have them act them out on others.

Not sure if my post hits the jive of this thread. I don't view homosexuality or transgenderism as anti-social (not condoning it for the purposes of this site). If you do think they're evil. Fine, I guess. Aren't we all born as sinners? Why can't some people be born homosexual, or transgender under the Christian mindset? Doesn't mean that you have to approve of them, but maybe it's just a thorn on the side that God finds they must suffer through their entire life?

 

[OldAbramBrown]

In that I agree with you what is objectively a non issue in true religion (free of control issues) should not be defined otherwise for control purposes. The change from 1966 to 1983 and since, has been very clear to see and feel. I'm writing from England and English religion has become controlling (and i read it is in some churches in the US as well?)

 

[CoreyD]

If someone is born without a limb, with a disability, with an extra chromosome, that is how they are.
Life may be more difficult for them, they may get bullied by ignorant, mean or insecure people, and they may later wish to have surgery to try to rid themselves of their disability. But how can it be wrong?

Is there anything wrong with the world?

No doubt. Many agree, Yes. Definitely.



Have mankind tried fixing the problems?

Yes they have. Many are are still trying on an international level.



Some on the other hand relay these words to us.
It’s a chaotic world out there. But we’d better get used to it; this may be the new normal.

I'm picking up though, that your argument is similar, only, not necessarily the same.
The statement above says, It's bad yes, but we have to accept it as normal - the new normal.
In other words, the statement posits that it's not normal, or good, or right, but we learn to live with it. We get along with the abnormal - as if it is normal.



We live in a sinful world. We live with it, is true. Would you agree?
However, which of us, would not like to see an end to the problems of life? Would you like to see an end to problems?
If you are a Christian, no doubt you look forward for the time when God ends the problems, as promised in his word the Bible.

In the meantime, does wrong become right, or good, bad?
We adopt God's view.
When "dwelling" among Israel, God did not accept what was defective. We see this, particularly in the books of Numbers, Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Leviticus 21:16-24, for example.

According to the dictionary, a defect is :

a shortcoming, imperfection, or lack.​

an imperfection or abnormality that impairs quality, function, or utility​

Isn't the reason it is a defect, because that's not the way it was designed to be?
Isn't that the reason we fix things - whether a doctor, or engineer?
Or scientist?
Physicists predict Earth will become a chaotic world, with dire consequences
"If the Earth System gets into the region of chaotic behavior, we will lose all hope of somehow fixing the problem."



The greatest of all designers, promised to fix tings, in due time.
In the meantime, has God's view changed, do you think?
Is there such a thing as being born gay, and so, that makes being gay, right?

Let's hear from scientists first, then see what God has to say about it.
There is no ‘gay gene.’ There is no ‘straight gene.’ Sexuality is just complex, study confirms
There is no single gene responsible for a person being gay or a lesbian.


That’s the first thing you need to know about the largest genetic investigation of sexuality ever, which was published Thursday in Science. The study of nearly a half million people closes the door on the debate around the existence of a so-called “gay gene.”


In its stead, the report finds that human DNA cannot predict who is gay or heterosexual. Sexuality cannot be pinned down by biology, psychology or life experiences, this study and others show, because human sexual attraction is decided by all these factors.
__End of quote__

That's very important, because while people who claim to be "with God", change their view, on matters, in order to fit in with "changing norms"
So, when science puts a dent in that, it's something they should think seriously about.

Let's hear what God says.
Isaiah 5:20 - Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Hebrews 13:4 - God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.

It wasn't what God intended for anyone, but it is what it is.
There are many stories of disabled people who achieve great things - and not just Paralympians. There have been accounts of people who've said "this is me - I don't need to get another leg or get my sight back so as to be considered 'normal' by others."


Yes, it is normal for them; they know of nothing else.
The way we're born is the way we're born.
Would it be "wrong" or "abnormal" for a baby to be born with blue eyes in a brown eyed family? For a toddler to have red hair when the parents were blonde? Or for a mixed race couple to have twins; one black and one white? (It has happened.)

Why are you conflating race, with health conditions?
Do you think comparing being born with variations, which God created (Act 17:26), with being born with the defects of sin, is a reasonable thing to do?

Some people do think that it's wrong to have a child with, say, Down's syndrome. Years ago, even the medical profession advised parents to "put them in a home and forget you had them." These days, there are people who subject their Down's child to surgery, to try to change their appearance and make them more acceptable, or "normal." THAT is wrong, in my view - though if the child chose that option as an adult, it would be up to them.

I think you have gone into an area that isn't being considered in this thread.
Whether one thinks they should carry a child diagnosed with a "abnormal" condition, or not, isn't the subject of this thread.
Nor are we discussing appearances - how one looks - fat, thin, etc.

However, you are correct, about some of us perceiving a "defect" or flaw in our appearance.
That's different to what doctors determine, is an actual defect - a real condition.
Are you saying, it's a person's perception, that causes them to see being gay, as wrong? Do you think it is a person's perception, that causes them to see being gay, as right?

Of course it's not wrong.
It may be an inconvenience, make life difficult, or challenging, or be perceived as being wrong by parents who want "perfect" babies.
But if someone born without an eye, leg or anything else is labelled as "wrong", then were are making a judgement against them and discriminating because they do not meet the criteria of what we consider to be normal or acceptable.

You aren't confusing, and conflating the words used in this thread, I hope.
Children have learned to live with "something" - not "someone" being wrong.
Parents who love their children, tell them the truth, so that when those children meet others with conditions that are "not normal" they show empathy.
In fact, if the child is taught in God's way, they offer comfort and support to those persons.

Nothing is wrong with living with something that isn't right.
Children living with cancer, have been able to enjoy their life, while alive.
I don't want to get away from the discussion at hand, though.

I answered in post #23.
We are how we are; it's not wrong to be born disabled.

Oh, yes. I see. Thanks.

If you're asking, "is it wrong to have plastic surgery to correct a condition we're born with; shouldn't we just accept how we are?"
My answer is that, in my view, it it wrong to inflict surgery onto a child just because the parents want it to be more "normal." Urgent and life-saving surgery is, obviously, different. A child can later choose cosmetic surgery for themselves, if they wish.

Yes. The topic under discussion is sexuality.
The analogies are for making points regarding the view that something is right, because "we are born with it".

Living with something that isn't "normal" is not the issue, or subject.
We live with people that have been badly mutilated, and burnt. It's bad, yes, but we live with them.

I guess it comes down to, "is it a choice", which some wonder.
It can even come down to, even if a person is born with their brain all messed up (that happens. It's a reality), thinking in a way that's "not normal", can they choose to think otherwise.
In other words, can they "be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2

The Bible answers, Yes.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11

But God hasn't said that it is wrong to be born with a disability - nor that it is wrong to have surgery to try to correct it.

From my reading of the Bible, God does not consider disabilities right, or good for any living creature.
Jeremiah 29:11 reads,
For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the LORD, ‘plans for prosperity and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.

Sin, and the effects of sin, are not considered good, or right, in God's view.
God has promised to remove these, and bring relief to mankind.
Isaiah 35:5, 6

Then the eyes of those who are blind will be opened, And the ears of those who are deaf will be unstopped.​

Then those who limp will leap like a deer, And the tongue of those who cannot speak will shout for joy. For waters will burst forth in the wilderness, And streams in the desert.​

Doctors inform persons whether surgery is necessary. God doesn't.
God says it's wrong to believe that living a life out of harmony with his will, is right. That's what God is concerned with.
So is the OP.

 

[CoreyD]

That brings up the question 'Were they born gay'? Did that take away their choice?

Two very good questions.

 

[CoreyD]

Do we have a choice when it comes to sexuality?
I wasn't told I had to fancy boys - even though many at my all girl's school had boyfriends. I wasn't put into a room and told to choose.

Do you think you did not choose sexuality?
I know persons who chose a different sex, because of how the other sex treated them.
Do you think you didn't have a choice?

 

[CoreyD]

Really?
I'm talking about sexuality, not gender.

@returntosender made a good point. Some choose sexuality for various reason. I referred to a real example earlier.

Does anyone choose to fancy boys or girls; to have feelings for the same, or opposite, gender?

Yes. I spoke to such persons, in person.

Can someone who is happily married choose to go and sleep with a woman; or someone who is gay choose to passionately kiss someone of the opposite gender, and enjoy it?

You don't think so? Seriously Strong. I'm shocked.
I know of such individuals both today, and in the past. 1 Corinthians 6:11

If even adults can't do that, how likely is it that children will be able to?

Adults do. Children do too. One of the persons I spoke to, is just barely in their teens.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"We are born this way. Therefore, it cannot be wrong."
Have you heard that before? Does the logic follow?

"We are born this way. Therefore, nothing is wrong with us. It's perfectly normal."

Spoiler

Normal
Anophthalmia
Müllerian agenesis

Hence, this must be wrong.
Treatments - Cosmetic surgery
Treatment - Lab-grown vagina
_

Does that logic follow?

As I understand it, we all were born with a sin nature. Acting on impluses to sin is not right and there is a problem with that.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I do believe there are probably genetic components regarding many nasty attractions, like pedophiles and those with serial killer/rapist tendencies. These people shouldn't be viewed evil as a default for they didn't choose these attractions; but if they do act on them, I see no reason for society to tolerate such behavior and they should be locked up for the safety of the public.

Although I must say, I don't understand this knee jerk reaction. If someone proposes something might have natural origins many people automatically assume that you must be condoning it. No.. I see this kind of mindset played out against evolutionary psychology. I forget his name, but during the late 80s or early 90s there was an evolutionary psychologist who gave a talk about men who rape and its possible evolutionary origins. I believe feminists gave this man death threats and they actually had to have police officers attend the talk just in case any violence broke out. This guy wasn't condoning rape. His premise might have even been wrong, but the reactionary response he got for simply stating rape might have evolutionary causes was ridiculous. Which is sad, because if some of these tendencies do come natural with people, not exploring all the possibilities will only hinder our ability to help them deal with their dark attractions and hopefully not have them act them out on others.

Not sure if my post hits the jive of this thread. I don't view homosexuality or transgenderism as anti-social (not condoning it for the purposes of this site). If you do think they're evil. Fine, I guess. Aren't we all born as sinners? Why can't some people be born homosexual, or transgender under the Christian mindset? Doesn't mean that you have to approve of them, but maybe it's just a thorn on the side that God finds they must suffer through their entire life?

An evolutionary case for polygyny to counter demographic collapse

Sex ratio theory suggests why mating practices have become dysfunctional in the West and other regions. Spain, Japan, and over 20 other nations are on course to have their populations halved by 2100, dramatically aging their citizenry. Experts and opinion makers warn that a demographic collapse...

www.frontiersin.org

"

Abstract​

Sexual selection, or competition among members of one sex for reproductive access to the other, is one of the strongest and fastest evolutionary processes. Comparative studies support the prediction that sexual selection is stronger in polygamous than in monogamous species. We report the first study of the effect on sexual selection of a change in mating system, from polygyny to monogamy, within a historical human population. Here we show that over the reproductive lifetimes of Utahns born between 1830 and 1894, socially induced reductions in the rate and degree of polygamy correspond to a 58% reduction in the strength of sexual selection. Polygyny conferred a strong advantage to male fitness as well as a weak disadvantage to female fitness. In contrast, mating with multiple males provided little benefit to females in this population. Polygamy benefitted males by increasing reproductive rates and by lengthening reproductive tenure. Each advantage contributed to roughly half of the increased total lifetime reproductive success. This study illustrates both the potency of sexual selection in polygynous human populations and the dramatic influence that short-term societal changes can have on evolutionary processes."

Mating system change reduces the strength of sexual selection in an American frontier population of the 19th century

Sexual selection, or competition among members of one sex for reproductive access to the other, is one of the strongest and fastest evolutionary processes. Comparative studies support the prediction that sexual selection is stronger in polygamous than ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Sabertooth]

Does the logic follow?

Yes & no.
We were all born defective because of Original Sin.
But that does not Justify said defects.

Conditions that are only viable differences, such as

• left-handedness,
• intellectual giftedness [clinical geekiness] &
• benign autism [clinical nerdiness]

do not compel one to sin.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm picking up though, that your argument is similar, only, not necessarily the same.
The statement above says, It's bad yes, but we have to accept it as normal - the new normal.
In other words, the statement posits that it's not normal, or good, or right, but we learn to live with it. We get along with the abnormal - as if it is normal.

The OP says "we were born this way, therefore it cannot be wrong". A second statement said "there is nothing wrong with us, it is perfectly normal.
I responded and said that the way a person is when they are born is normal for them. I suspected that the question was really going to be about sexuality, or maybe a change of gender - but it applies to disabilities too. If someone is born with one leg, that is normal for them - similarly with Down's syndrome etc.
The last thing any child needs to hear is, "you're not normal", especially if it's something that is genetic, or they were born with.
I also asked "what is normal?"

I grew up with two married parents. It was normal for me to have a mum and a dad who lived together; mum stayed at home with us and dad went to work. I didn't know of anyone who had anything different - or if I did, such cases were rare.
But several years ago my sister in law told me that her son was almost the only one in the class whose parents weren't divorced. Nowadays, "normal" may well be having parents who live apart, a mummy and a daddy who has a girlfriend, two mummies, two daddies, adoptive parents, parents and a "tummy mummy" or any other combination.

Do you see what I mean; I'm trying to get a definition of "normal".

We live in a sinful world. We live with it, is true. Would you agree?

Of course - everyone since Cain has lived in a sinful world.

However, which of us, would not like to see an end to the problems of life? Would you like to see an end to problems?
If you are a Christian, no doubt you look forward for the time when God ends the problems, as promised in his word the Bible.

Of course.

In the meantime, does wrong become right, or good, bad?

But now you're talking about morals - the OP simply stated "we were born this way, so there is nothing wrong with it."
It would be wrong for someone to say, for example, "you have a disability; you're not normal."

And Christian morals are different.
In some countries, children are brought up to hate the west, to believe that killing a non Muslim is good, to handle guns, or to believe that women have to marry the person their family choose for them. To US, yes, that's wrong; to them, it's normal.
I have heard non Christians saying that it's wrong to bring a child up in the Christian faith, because it's "brainwashing". Someone even once said that to baptise a toddler against its will, is abuse.

According to the dictionary, a defect is :
a shortcoming, imperfection, or lack.
an imperfection or abnormality that impairs quality, function, or utility

Isn't the reason it is a defect, because that's not the way it was designed to be?

Yes, but if a baby is born with a missing limb, that is still their normal.
Labelling them as defective could do untold harm. Wise parents will focus on what they can do, not on what they can't, and will help them to achieve what they can.

The greatest of all designers, promised to fix tings, in due time.
In the meantime, has God's view changed, do you think?
Is there such a thing as being born gay, and so, that makes being gay, right?

We are all who we are. We don't choose even to be born - never mind choose our health, our family or our sexuality.

Why are you conflating race, with health conditions?
Do you think comparing being born with variations, which God created (Act 17:26), with being born with the defects of sin, is a reasonable thing to do?

I've been asking, all along, for a definition of the word "normal".

I think you have gone into an area that isn't being considered in this thread.

The thing is that, from the OP, it wasn't clear what was being considered in this thread.
The statement was "I was born this way, so it's normal; there's nothing wrong with it."

I suspected that maybe the thread was asking about sexuality and wanted to know if being gay was normal - but it wasn't clear. I simply picked up on the word "normal" and asked for a definition.

Are you saying, it's a person's perception, that causes them to see being gay, as wrong? Do you think it is a person's perception, that causes them to see being gay, as right?

A person is gay - as far as I know - because they have feelings for, and are sexually attracted to - people of the same gender.

I don't believe those feelings and biological urges are a choice.
Some people might decide to experiment and choose to kiss/sleep with someone of the same gender to "try it out". But that basic urge which makes a girl/boy say "they're fit", get butterflies in their stomach and fall in love is instinct, not the result of choice.

From my reading of the Bible, God does not consider disabilities right, or good for any living creature.

No, maybe not.
Sin, death, decay and illness were not part of God's plan for us. He knew they would happen, because he knew what Adam would choose to do - but they were not his plan or will.

Jeremiah 29:11 reads,
For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the LORD, ‘plans for prosperity and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.

I'm not even going to get into the fact that that is quoted out of context.

Sin, and the effects of sin, are not considered good, or right, in God's view.

No, they're not.
But the OP didn't state, mention or ask any of this.

Doctors inform persons whether surgery is necessary. God doesn't.
God says it's wrong to believe that living a life out of harmony with his will, is right. That's what God is concerned with.
So is the OP.

The OP didn't mention any of this.

If the statement had been, "I'm defining 'normal' as being what God intended in the beginning, before the fall: if someone is born with a disability - which was not what God originally planned for people - is is wrong to say, 'this is normal' "? Or "being born gay/believing you should be the opposite gender is not normal - because it was not what God intended - how can anyone try to normalise it?"
That would have defined what you meant by "normal" and made it clear what you were talking about.

My only 2 points are and have been, a) how do you define what is normal? and b) that it would be wrong to label someone as "abnormal" or "wrong" because they did not conform to the standard of normality.

By God's standard I believe we could all be said to be abnormal - because we were never meant to know sin, disability, broken relationships, hurt, pain etc etc. That was not what he intended for us.

 

[Strong in Him]

Do you think you did not choose sexuality?
I know persons who chose a different sex, because of how the other sex treated them.
Do you think you didn't have a choice?

Yes.

I'm not talking about choosing someone of the same gender because the opposite gender treated you badly. Nor choosing someone of the same gender because you have two mothers, for example, who teach you that all males are evil and after only one thing.
I'm talking about the basic biological urge, for want of a better word, which causes a person to be sexually attracted to someone else. People say that you can't help who you fall in love with". Are you saying that you can; that you sit down and choose the person you're going to be attracted to, get butterflies in the stomach over or - to be crude - get aroused by? Is that a deliberate, planned choice, or something that just happens?

I'm saying that that just happens. I was never drawn to, or had romantic/sexual feelings about girls. If I had, then, for me, that would have been normal and fancying, or trying to make myself feel attracted to men, would have been abnormal.

 

[Strong in Him]

You don't think so? Seriously Strong. I'm shocked.
I know of such individuals both today, and in the past. 1 Corinthians 6:11

Well if you know of people who've said to their hormones/sexual urges "I have made a decision and am choosing to be with someone of the same gender. I order you to only let me fancy people of that gender" - I stand corrected.
I have heard people saying that they knew they were gay but suppressed it, went along with marriage, and even having children, because they were ashamed of being gay or that they knew their family/culture would not accept it. But that's not what I was referring to.

I think it more likely that either I haven't explained properly or you have not understood what I meant.

 

[Unqualified]

What’s more important God or sexuality. If you want to be gay go ahead, it’s a free country. You’ll have a short life maybe of pleasure and hurts. God doesn’t like it though and you are not headed for heaven right now. You can have church but it won’t be what God wants. You will go through the wrath with your fist held high in self righteousness. But you will have what you want. Sex. Better to lose your life now and save it later.

Luke 17:33 , Matthew 6:24

 

[CoreyD]

I do believe there are probably genetic components regarding many nasty attractions, like pedophiles and those with serial killer/rapist tendencies. These people shouldn't be viewed evil as a default for they didn't choose these attractions; but if they do act on them, I see no reason for society to tolerate such behavior and they should be locked up for the safety of the public.

Although I must say, I don't understand this knee jerk reaction. If someone proposes something might have natural origins many people automatically assume that you must be condoning it. No.. I see this kind of mindset played out against evolutionary psychology. I forget his name, but during the late 80s or early 90s there was an evolutionary psychologist who gave a talk about men who rape and its possible evolutionary origins. I believe feminists gave this man death threats and they actually had to have police officers attend the talk just in case any violence broke out. This guy wasn't condoning rape. His premise might have even been wrong, but the reactionary response he got for simply stating rape might have evolutionary causes was ridiculous. Which is sad, because if some of these tendencies do come natural with people, not exploring all the possibilities will only hinder our ability to help them deal with their dark attractions and hopefully not have them act them out on others.

Not sure if my post hits the jive of this thread. I don't view homosexuality or transgenderism as anti-social (not condoning it for the purposes of this site). If you do think they're evil. Fine, I guess. Aren't we all born as sinners? Why can't some people be born homosexual, or transgender under the Christian mindset? Doesn't mean that you have to approve of them, but maybe it's just a thorn on the side that God finds they must suffer through their entire life?

Hi MehGuy.
I think what you are saying, is that we might have sinful tendencies, but that does not mean we will, or need to act on those tendencies.
For, example, a person might have been an alcoholic, and is trying to remain sober. They might have strong urges, but they try to control them.
I think that is different to saying, "I have an ingrained habit which I developed from repeated practice, therefore, being an alcoholic can't be wrong."
I hope that gives you perspective of the issue raised in the OP.
Thanks for your post. I think it is important, even if it does not "hit the jive of this thread".

 

[CoreyD]

The OP says "we were born this way, therefore it cannot be wrong". A second statement said "there is nothing wrong with us, it is perfectly normal.
I responded and said that the way a person is when they are born is normal for them. I suspected that the question was really going to be about sexuality, or maybe a change of gender - but it applies to disabilities too. If someone is born with one leg, that is normal for them - similarly with Down's syndrome etc.
The last thing any child needs to hear is, "you're not normal", especially if it's something that is genetic, or they were born with.
I also asked "what is normal?"

The expression "normal for them" reminded me of so many things at once. Some, I think may be a bit too complicated here, and could lead to another topic, so I'd better keep it simple.
A person saying something is normal to me, does not make it normal. The person is just saying, they accept what is, and will live with it, so they convince themselves that what they have is normal.
I am interested in if you think that way of thinking is right, because this is an argument most common in atheism - the view that we decide what is right and wrong. In other words, choosing for themselves what is right and wrong.

A scripture that came to mind is Proverbs 14:12.

I grew up with two married parents. It was normal for me to have a mum and a dad who lived together; mum stayed at home with us and dad went to work. I didn't know of anyone who had anything different - or if I did, such cases were rare.

I'm glad you experienced the arrangement that is right in God's eyes.
It is always right, and that is recognized as the best way, even by people who don't take church seriously.

The Changing Profile of Unmarried Parents
One-in-four parents living with a child in the United States today are unmarried. Driven by declines in marriage overall, as well as increases in births outside of marriage, this marks a dramatic change from a half-century ago, when fewer than one-in-ten parents living with their children were unmarried (7%).

Due primarily to the rising number of cohabiting parents, the share of unmarried parents who are fathers has more than doubled over the past 50 years. Now, 29% of all unmarried parents who reside with their children are fathers, compared with just 12% in 1968.
__End of quote__

U.S. has world’s highest rate of children living in single-parent households
For decades, the share of U.S. children living with a single parent has been rising, accompanied by a decline in marriage rates and a rise in births outside of marriage. A new Pew Research Center study of 130 countries and territories shows that the U.S. has the world’s highest rate of children living in single-parent households.
__End of quote__

Spoiler: Additional

What some say.
40 Facts About Two Parent Families
Often lost in the discussion of marital decline is a simple fact. Marriage is good for children. In fact, countless studies have shown that children born to married parents enjoy a number of socioeconomic benefits over those born to single parents.

Today, only about 64 percent of children live in homes with two parents who are married, representing an all-time low (Pew Research Center). Trend data shows a stark and steady decline since 1960, when nearly 88 percent of children lived with married parents.
__End of quote__

What a sad consequence of moving away from what God considers right, to decide for self, what is right in their own eyes. How hurtful to children, and God, that must be. Malachi 2:16; Hebrews 13:4

But several years ago my sister in law told me that her son was almost the only one in the class whose parents weren't divorced. Nowadays, "normal" may well be having parents who live apart, a mummy and a daddy who has a girlfriend, two mummies, two daddies, adoptive parents, parents and a "tummy mummy" or any other combination.

Cohabiting is normal to persons who disregard God's law, and who consider the Bible "old fashioned".
So, yes, what is "normal" today, are the sad consequences of disobedience to God.
Is that not the same reason, it is "normal" for a young woman or child to be raped, or a man, woman or child to be shot, or stabbed to death, for simply going about their everyday lives?
That's tragic, isn't it? So "normal" does not translate to good. Does it?

Do you see what I mean; I'm trying to get a definition of "normal".

Then you are missing the point.
Read the OP, again. Study it. Then tell me in your own words, what you get from it.

Of course - everyone since Cain has lived in a sinful world.

Of course.

But now you're talking about morals - the OP simply stated "we were born this way, so there is nothing wrong with it."
It would be wrong for someone to say, for example, "you have a disability; you're not normal."

The last statement you made, does not relate to the first.

And Christian morals are different.
In some countries, children are brought up to hate the west, to believe that killing a non Muslim is good, to handle guns, or to believe that women have to marry the person their family choose for them. To US, yes, that's wrong; to them, it's normal.
I have heard non Christians saying that it's wrong to bring a child up in the Christian faith, because it's "brainwashing". Someone even once said that to baptise a toddler against its will, is abuse.

Sad, isn't it, that Christianity today is nothing like what true Christianity, as described in the Bible, really is.
Helps us to see, that billions of people need to start looking for true Christianity, lest their meet a disappointing end, does it not?

Yes, but if a baby is born with a missing limb, that is still their normal.

Their normal?
What is the meaning of normal?
If you agree with the definition here, ask yourself such questions as

1. why are children born with missing limbs. Note the word "missing". If something is missing, is it normal?
2. is it how children are normally born?
3. is the what is supposed to happen in a birth?

Then tell me if you believe we can change the definition of normal, to be "our normal".
Facts about Upper and Lower Limb Reduction Defects

Labelling them as defective could do untold harm. Wise parents will focus on what they can do, not on what they can't, and will help them to achieve what they can.

What's labelled as defective - the child, or the disease?
Scoliosis is a defect that a child might be able to live with, or it may need urgent attention, if the child is to live.
Should a parent refuse to label scoliosis a problem? Is doing so, preventing the parent from giving the child words of encouragement?
Could you answer those questions, please, because I get the feeling you are missing what is being said, and conflating words.

We are all who we are. We don't choose even to be born - never mind choose our health, our family or our sexuality.

I've been asking, all along, for a definition of the word "normal".

I put it above for you.

The thing is that, from the OP, it wasn't clear what was being considered in this thread.
The statement was "I was born this way, so it's normal; there's nothing wrong with it."

I suspected that maybe the thread was asking about sexuality and wanted to know if being gay was normal - but it wasn't clear. I simply picked up on the word "normal" and asked for a definition.

A person is gay - as far as I know - because they have feelings for, and are sexually attracted to - people of the same gender.

I don't believe those feelings and biological urges are a choice.

There is no hard science supporting your belief on that, so can you explain, on what basis, you believe it? Is it just a hunch?
On the Psychogenesis of Homosexuality
The best-established facts in relation to homosexuality point to developmental-psychological, not genetic or physiological, causation. The efforts of the last few decades to find evidence to support a biological theory have made it more doubtful than ever that such evidence will be found.

Some people might decide to experiment and choose to kiss/sleep with someone of the same gender to "try it out". But that basic urge which makes a girl/boy say "they're fit", get butterflies in their stomach and fall in love is instinct, not the result of choice.

Do you think it can have something to do with what you feed your mind on?
For example, there are some children - they call them nerds - who are so focused on their studies, they don't think about the opposite sex. They have a very high IQ, and their whole being seems to be dedicated toward learning.

No, maybe not.
Sin, death, decay and illness were not part of God's plan for us. He knew they would happen, because he knew what Adam would choose to do - but they were not his plan or will.

That's a different topic, which I don't agree is anywhere in the Bible.
I'm discussing this in another thread, with another poster. If you are interested in weighing in, feel free to do so.
I'd be happy to have you join us.

I'm not even going to get into the fact that that is quoted out of context.

God's thoughts toward his people, for their good, shows that calamity - the effects of sin, is bad, in his eyes.
You think that's out of context? Okay, but I don't agree, nor see how.

No, they're not.
But the OP didn't state, mention or ask any of this.

The OP didn't mention any of this.

That's true, but you did. Since you brought it up, I thought the proper thing to do, would be address it.

If the statement had been, "I'm defining 'normal' as being what God intended in the beginning, before the fall: if someone is born with a disability - which was not what God originally planned for people - is is wrong to say, 'this is normal' "? Or "being born gay/believing you should be the opposite gender is not normal - because it was not what God intended - how can anyone try to normalise it?"
That would have defined what you meant by "normal" and made it clear what you were talking about.

I though all Christians understood what normal is, even on an academic level.

My only 2 points are and have been, a) how do you define what is normal? and b) that it would be wrong to label someone as "abnormal" or "wrong" because they did not conform to the standard of normality.

By God's standard I believe we could all be said to be abnormal - because we were never meant to know sin, disability, broken relationships, hurt, pain etc etc. That was not what he intended for us.

Even without God's standards, normal, is defined, not as something we can claim, but what it means to be normal.
I think you were saying a lot more, since you spoke of "someone's normal", or "what's normal to them". That, isn't something we can just ignore.