Born Again - When

[TheScottsMen]

Hey Everyone!
I'm sure this debate has been posted before on General Apologetics Forum but I'm want know what my fellow Charismatic Brothers and Sisters views are on when the apostles were born again.
Looking forward to your views and posting my own!
TSM

 

[Salty Tears]

Hey Everyone!
I'm sure this debate has been posted before on General Apologetics Forum but I'm want know what my fellow Charismatic Brothers and Sisters views are on when the apostles were born again.
Looking forward to your views and posting my own!
TSM

For some reason this is a very difficult question to answer.
I guess it is hard because I don't have the answers.
I would like to hear views on this too.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Let me step you through a very simple proof that no-one was born again prior to Pentacost.

Jesus is preaching to the Jews:


Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.


As a result of His preaching, many believe!


Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.


By every definition of salvation, if people could be born again, these people must have been. They believed. Jesus continues to speak to these believers:


Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


These believers respond to Him:


Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?


Jesus responds to these believers:


Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.


The believers respond to Him:


Joh 8:39a They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father.


And agin He responds to these believers:


joh 8:39b
Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41a Ye do the deeds of your father.


The believers respond to Him:


Joh 8:41b
Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.


Jesus responds to the believers:


Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.


Jesus calls these believers children of the devil!!!!


Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


These people were not born again. They still had the unregererate natures within them. They believed.... but the new birth was not yet available to them.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The new birth came to us by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead:


1Pe 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Eph 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)


We were quicken together with Christ when God raised Him from the dead.

I love Colosians:


Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


We were buried with Jesus in death. He became one with us. He became the head of the body, and we the members. When God raised the head up... he rose the body up with it. We were born again at that time. It become a reality in our lives when we believe into the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus! Praise His name!


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life

 

[Andrew]

I (currently) believe that it was the time when the risen Jesus breathed on them and said "Receive ye the Holy Spirit".

 

[The Midge]

How can we know? The bible does not say. I think they became "Christians" (since there was no direct equivalet at the time when they responded to Jesus call.
We know they were batised with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and no doubt they were filled when Jesus breathed on them, bu tthere is a possibility they were filled before.

 

[look]

According to John 20:
19. Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24. But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

As we can see, this was before Thomas finally saw Jesus with his own eyes, which would put this event before the day of Pentecost. This is why I believe these people were born again before Pentecost.

This actually makes the case for there being a difference between receiving the Holy Ghost during the process of being Born-again and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost (which is the being endued with power for service)...

 

[Brain Damage]

When they believed.

 

[TheScottsMen]

When they believed is a open area Believed what? That he was the messiah? That he would free them from the Romans? That he was the son of God? Or that he rose from the dead so that they might have eternal life? Like I said, believed is very open.

 

[mhead66]

It says in Romans 10:9 that "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." The disciples had confessed Jesus as Lord - Jesus said in John 13:13, "You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am." They also believed that God had raised Him from the dead - they were eyewitnesses! In John 20, the night of Jesus' resurrection, the disciples were hiding in the Upper Room, and Jesus appeared to them, saying, "Peace to you!". In verse 22, He "breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'"
Romans 8:9 says, "Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." We must have the indwelling Spirit to be "believers" - born again, redeemed Christians.
The question's always been, were the disciples born again at Pentecost, or on the night of Jesus' resurrection? Many "conservative", non-"charismatic" believers, strongly teach that Pentecost was the beginning of the disciples' salvation, and that John 20:22 was "a partial infilling, in anticipation of their salvation at Pentecost," as the Dallas Theological Seminary states. To teach otherwise would be to admit that a Biblical precedent had been set by the disciples, that they were saved (by fulfilling the conditons of Romans 10:9 and 8:9) on Resurrection Sunday. Because if that's the case, then Pentecost must be something else - and it would therefore be possible that there can be a separate grace, a separate "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", after salvation.
Of course, to read Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8, to teach that Pentecost was for salvation is almost ludicrous. Acts 16:31 doesn't say, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall receive power."

Just my two cents.

 

[Hitch]

If 'born-again' is better translated 'born from above' the they ,as all believers were called before the foundation of the world.

Take care

Hitch

 

[look]

Thank you, mhead66! I had mentioned that very point a few posts back, but no one seemed to notice it...

 

[TheScottsMen]

I've heard it preached before that men in the OT were just as Born Again as those in the new. Any thoughts?

 

[Trish1947]

The minute they confessed with their mouth that Jesus was the Christ.

Peter for example.. Jesus said "who do YOU say that I am. Peter responded, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Jesus said, Thou has well said, for flesh and blood has not revealed this, but has been revealed by my Father which is in Heaven. (paraphrased)

Apparently, this can only be said by revelation knowledge from the Father.

And upon that revelation from God, He is building His Church.

 

[Follower of Christ too]

I think when Jesus calls such as "follow me" and we surrender to His will we then recieve the Spirit of Christ- A new birth.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I've heard it preached before that men in the OT were just as Born Again as those in the new. Any thoughts?

Hi TSM, See my previous post.

Let me step you through a very simple proof that no-one was born again prior to Pentacost.

Jesus is preaching to the Jews:


Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.


As a result of His preaching, many believe!


Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.


By every definition of salvation, if people could be born again, these people must have been. They believed. Jesus continues to speak to these believers:


Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


These believers respond to Him:


Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?


Jesus responds to these believers:


Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.


The believers respond to Him:


Joh 8:39a They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father.


And agin He responds to these believers:


joh 8:39b
Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41a Ye do the deeds of your father.


The believers respond to Him:


Joh 8:41b
Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.


Jesus responds to the believers:


Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.


Jesus calls these believers children of the devil!!!!


Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


These people were not born again. They still had the unregererate natures within them. They believed.... but the new birth was not yet available to them.

 

[flyfishing]

Let me step you through a very simple proof that no-one was born again prior to Pentacost.

Jesus is preaching to the Jews:


Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.


As a result of His preaching, many believe!


Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.


By every definition of salvation, if people could be born again, these people must have been. They believed. Jesus continues to speak to these believers:


Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


These believers respond to Him:


Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?


Jesus responds to these believers:


Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.


The believers respond to Him:


Joh 8:39a They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father.


And agin He responds to these believers:


joh 8:39b
Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41a Ye do the deeds of your father.


The believers respond to Him:


Joh 8:41b
Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.


Jesus responds to the believers:


Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.


Jesus calls these believers children of the devil!!!!


Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


These people were not born again. They still had the unregererate natures within them. They believed.... but the new birth was not yet available to them.

Let me give you scriptual proof they were born again before Pentecost..

John 20:22.. He after the cross and resuurection breathed on the apostles and told them Receive ye the Holy ghost. They received nt salvation at this point..