Born again Christians don't sin.

[tobyw]

EDIT: The title of my thread is stupid and misleading. I apologize for it -- sorry. I stand by the contents of my opening post though. Thanks.

Despite what I have heard some preachers say - eg, that we are all sinners like anyone else, the only difference is we are forgiven due to our faith in Christ - I don't see how that's Biblically correct.

Here is something the Bible does say, and I've found other Christians to be dismissive of an idea St Paul feels a need to stress by repetition, for some reason:

Romans 7:20-25

So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

If you're a born-again Christian, when it comes to sin, it's not actually you that's sinning. Any sin that is happening is coming from somewhere else, an entity Paul differentiates as his "flesh", in contast to "I myself."

I feel this matches other teaching in the Bible, such as 1 John 1:8 which says "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." St Paul never denies he has sin; he only denies that he's the one doing it. This is also why 1 John 3:9 says, "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God." You are not your flesh. You are a child of God, but you are for now stuck in a body which seemingly has a mind of its own.

Anyway I'm posting all this because I just get tired of Christians saying or believing that we are exactly the same as anybody else, just forgiven. It's not a Biblical idea. I think it also leads to a lot of Christians struggling with an identity problem, assurance issues, thinking that they can fall in and out of their salvation status based on what kind of week they're having (salvation dependent on self-control), etc.

 

[timothyu]

Politicly convenient in a secular world.

 

[HTacianas]

Despite what I have heard some preachers say - eg, that we are all sinners like anyone else, the only difference is we are forgiven due to our faith in Christ - I don't see how that's Biblically correct.

Here is something the Bible does say, and I've found other Christians to be dismissive of an idea St Paul feels a need to stress by repetition, for some reason:



If you're a born-again Christian, when it comes to sin, it's not actually you that's sinning. Any sin that is happening is coming from somewhere else, an entity Paul differentiates as his "flesh", in contast to "I myself."

I feel this matches other teaching in the Bible, such as 1 John 1:8 which says "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." St Paul never denies he has sin; he only denies that he's the one doing it. This is also why 1 John 3:9 says, "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God." You are not your flesh. You are a child of God, but you are for now stuck in a body which seemingly has a mind of its own.

Anyway I'm posting all this because I just get tired of Christians saying or believing that we are exactly the same as anybody else, just forgiven. It's not a Biblical idea. I think it also leads to a lot of Christians struggling with an identity problem, assurance issues, thinking that they can fall in and out of their salvation status based on what kind of week they're having (salvation dependent on self-control), etc.

If you look closely at Romans 7:7 you'll see the sin the writer is guilty of:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

The writer is not describing things he does, but things he feels. He desires to have things, see lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh. No matter how hard he tries to rid himself of his desire to have things, he fails. So it is no longer him who desires, but the sin living in him causing him to desire.

Too many people use that to justify things they do. But simply because the writer describes his desires and attributes them to sin living in him, that cannot be used to justify willful sin. That leads to gnostic dualism where all manner of acts are permissible because they are done by the physical body yet do not touch the spirit.

 

[Dave G.]

There is the concept that our spirits don't sin but the soul, mind IE flesh does. None the less in 1st John it speaks of not sinning but if any man do then confess it. It's mentioned in 1 John 1:8-10 that we are liars if we say we don't sin, that we need to confess. And here in 1 John 2:1 is the portion I spoke of above: My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

 

[Mark Corbett]

The New Testament is full of encouragement to Christians to stop sinning and to avoid specific sins. So, obviously, Christians do sin. Examples (all written to Christians):

NIV Ephesians 4:31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

CSB17 Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, so that you obey its desires.

NIV Colossians 3:8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

 

[TedT]

Born again Christians don't sin.

No? Then why are they chastised with harsh discipline, Heb 12:5-11 to train them in righteousness, v11???

The word chastised in verse 6 is actually to be flogged by whipping when stretched over a rack!

 

[friend of]

Even if I stopped sinning completely and never sinned again after posting this, I would still be unworthy of heaven and my own righteousness would still be dwarfed and eclipsed by the righteousness of the blood of the Lamb of God.

 

[The Narrow Way]

Despite what I have heard some preachers say - eg, that we are all sinners like anyone else, the only difference is we are forgiven due to our faith in Christ - I don't see how that's Biblically correct.

Here is something the Bible does say, and I've found other Christians to be dismissive of an idea St Paul feels a need to stress by repetition, for some reason:



If you're a born-again Christian, when it comes to sin, it's not actually you that's sinning. Any sin that is happening is coming from somewhere else, an entity Paul differentiates as his "flesh", in contast to "I myself."

I feel this matches other teaching in the Bible, such as 1 John 1:8 which says "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." St Paul never denies he has sin; he only denies that he's the one doing it. This is also why 1 John 3:9 says, "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God." You are not your flesh. You are a child of God, but you are for now stuck in a body which seemingly has a mind of its own.

Anyway I'm posting all this because I just get tired of Christians saying or believing that we are exactly the same as anybody else, just forgiven. It's not a Biblical idea. I think it also leads to a lot of Christians struggling with an identity problem, assurance issues, thinking that they can fall in and out of their salvation status based on what kind of week they're having (salvation dependent on self-control), etc.

I agree with you, that it's a horrible testimony that many preachers give, when they say that Christians are "no better, just forgiven." If becoming a Christian doesn't make you a better person, than there is something wrong with your Christian beliefs.

I do believe that it is possible, and even necessary, where we HATE sin so much, that we will choose NOT to sin. Can you not look back on your life, and see where there are some sins that used to be very hard for you, when tempted, to not fall, but NOW, those SAME TEMPTATIONS, when they come your way, you don't find them tempting? I can. And I believe that just as God has helped me to become strong on certain temptations, He can help me on ALL temptations. I believe that when Jesus healed the woman and then told her to "go and sin no more" that that was exactly what He meant.

But at the same time, God has given us directions as to what to do IF/WHEN we fall into sin....so as not to be discouraged and give up.

 

[timothyu]

A simple awareness of our hybrid nature and a choice as to which we prefer to live according to.

 

[Mark Corbett]

I agree with you, that it's a horrible testimony that many preachers give, when they say that Christians are "no better, just forgiven." If becoming a Christian doesn't make you a better person, than there is something wrong with your Christian beliefs.

There's a really big difference between saying that becoming a Christians makes a person better and saying that born again Christians don't sin.

 

[jacks]

There's a really big difference between saying that becoming a Christians makes a person better and saying that born again Christians don't sin.

I agree with this. Even though I still sin, I'm a much better (nicer, kinder, generous, caring. etc.) person than I was before I was saved. So I think being a born again Christian doesn't make us sin free, but it should make us better people.

 

[Mark Corbett]

I agree with this. Even though I still sin, I'm a much better (nicer, kinder, generous, caring. etc.) person than I was before I was saved. So I think being a born again Christian doesn't make us sin free, but we should make us better people.

Amen! May God continue to help all of us become more and more like Jesus. May we all become more loving, pure, kind, generous, giving, living-like-Jesus people! And may we continue to thank Him for His grace for all the ways and times that we fall short and stumble.

 

[timothyu]

So I think being a born again Christian doesn't make us sin free, but we should make us better people.

Isn't that what Jesus commanded when he said put God's will ahead of our own animal instinct self serving nature and as a result love all as self treating all as we would hope to be treated by them, rather than following our animal instincts of territory and aggression. The two sides of our hybrid nature.

 

[fhansen]

Despite what I have heard some preachers say - eg, that we are all sinners like anyone else, the only difference is we are forgiven due to our faith in Christ - I don't see how that's Biblically correct.

Here is something the Bible does say, and I've found other Christians to be dismissive of an idea St Paul feels a need to stress by repetition, for some reason:



If you're a born-again Christian, when it comes to sin, it's not actually you that's sinning. Any sin that is happening is coming from somewhere else, an entity Paul differentiates as his "flesh", in contast to "I myself."

I feel this matches other teaching in the Bible, such as 1 John 1:8 which says "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." St Paul never denies he has sin; he only denies that he's the one doing it. This is also why 1 John 3:9 says, "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God." You are not your flesh. You are a child of God, but you are for now stuck in a body which seemingly has a mind of its own.

Anyway I'm posting all this because I just get tired of Christians saying or believing that we are exactly the same as anybody else, just forgiven. It's not a Biblical idea. I think it also leads to a lot of Christians struggling with an identity problem, assurance issues, thinking that they can fall in and out of their salvation status based on what kind of week they're having (salvation dependent on self-control), etc.

That's not what Paul meant. Paul also understood what John said best:
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work." 1 John 3:7-8

The flesh is disobedient to God; it doesn't care and only wants its way, whatever satisfies it, for right now at least. But when we turn to God in faith we enter fellowship with Him, and that relationship, itself, is the basis of justice or righteousness for man, opening the door to the grace and life of the Spirit by which we can overcome the sin that otherwise condemns us. There's no "pretend righteousness" with God-only the real thing. We were made for that relationship, that union, and are lost, dead, sick, unjust and disorderd-and incapable of maintaining moral integrity, i.e. refraining from sin-without it.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

We don't need to achieve perfection in this life-we just need to be on the road to it, oriented in the direction towards God, rather than the other road.

 

[johnjanuary1984]

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10

 

[SkyWriting]

Anyway I'm posting all this because I just get tired of Christians saying or believing that we are exactly the same as anybody else, just forgiven.

That's what Paul is saying. Plus, statistically, on divorce, adultery, abortions, crime and whatever you can measure, Christians act no different from non-believers. Just as Paul says. You might be tired of hearing the truth, I guess.

 

[fhansen]

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10

I wouldn't build a whole theology on one or two passages of Scripture. Especially when other passages tell us, for example, that we must obey the commandments, put to death the deeds of the flesh, refrain from sin, be holy, etc in order to gain eternal life. James, as well, insists that what we do counts. And God created no one to be a sinner.

The alternative is that no sin matters, regardless of degree, which would be absurd-and is directly opposed to what the ancient churches or early fathers taught. Only satan would be smiling at the notion that Christians have arrived at the point where they believe that personal righteousness no longer matters to God, that we can remain in our sins, just where we were and where the devil wants us anyway. But Jesus came to take away sins, to 'purify us from all unrighteousness' 1 John 1

 

[coffee4u]

Despite what I have heard some preachers say - eg, that we are all sinners like anyone else, the only difference is we are forgiven due to our faith in Christ - I don't see how that's Biblically correct.

Here is something the Bible does say, and I've found other Christians to be dismissive of an idea St Paul feels a need to stress by repetition, for some reason:



If you're a born-again Christian, when it comes to sin, it's not actually you that's sinning. Any sin that is happening is coming from somewhere else, an entity Paul differentiates as his "flesh", in contast to "I myself."

I feel this matches other teaching in the Bible, such as 1 John 1:8 which says "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." St Paul never denies he has sin; he only denies that he's the one doing it. This is also why 1 John 3:9 says, "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God." You are not your flesh. You are a child of God, but you are for now stuck in a body which seemingly has a mind of its own.

Anyway I'm posting all this because I just get tired of Christians saying or believing that we are exactly the same as anybody else, just forgiven. It's not a Biblical idea. I think it also leads to a lot of Christians struggling with an identity problem, assurance issues, thinking that they can fall in and out of their salvation status based on what kind of week they're having (salvation dependent on self-control), etc.

If you claim to be without sin then you are basically claiming to be God.
And that 'somewhere else' that flesh, is you. Your flesh isn't born again only your spirit. Our flesh is as mortal and corrupted as it was previously, it wont be glorified until the resurrection. Mean while we get to deal with our flesh and all of its evil desires. Which is why Paul said he was a wretched man.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

God doesn't want us to boast in ourselves only in him, because it is he who saves us not us, not how good we are.
Galatians 6:14
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Claiming to be sinless is as big of a boast as I have ever seen, but guess what? Boasting about yourself -also a sin! It's pride. So then you just contradicted yourself by being prideful while claiming to never sin!

No one said we were exactly the same friend, that isn't what this is about. If you are born again your spirit has changed and that is very different. Your spirit is aware of sin, hates sin, will try and stop you from sinning, but only while our focus is on God. Our mind changes too but the mind is still very connected to the body. It's very easy for our mind and body to take our eyes off God and onto self. Just because your spirit is awake and regenerated doesn't mean you can disconnect it from your flesh and mind, they are all connected. Body-Soul-Spirit. You can't sin and then claim this hand does not belong to me because it did something sinful, it is still you.
41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
They can be divided because they are joined yet separate.

 

[fhansen]

That's what Paul is saying. Plus, statistically, on divorce, adultery, abortions, crime and whatever you can measure, Christians act no different from non-believers.

Well, those would pretty much be a Christian in name, at least.

 

[johnjanuary1984]

I wouldn't build a whole theology on one or two passages of Scripture. Especially when other passages tell us, for example, that we must obey the commandments, put to death the deeds of the flesh, refrain from sin, be holy, etc in order to gain eternal life. James, as well, insists that what we do counts. And God created no one to be a sinner.

The alternative is that no sin matters, regardless of degree, which would be absurd-and is directly opposed to what the ancient churches or early fathers taught. Only satan would be smiling at the notion that Christians have arrived at the point where they believe that personal righteousness no longer matters to God, that we can remain in our sins, just where we were and where the devil wants us anyway. But Jesus came to take away sins, to 'purify us from all unrighteousness' 1 John 1

Yes we must obey the 10 commandments. We must be Holy (Leviticus 19:2) We must be perfect (Matthew 5:48)

If Jesus sinned while on earth, would his sacrifice still been acceptable to God the Father ???