Book of Mormon

[gort]

Brigham Young said you must confess Joseph Smith as a prophet of God in order to be saved.
"...and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is Antichrist." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 312).

 

[gort]

Brigham Young said his discourses are as good as Scripture.
"I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 264; see also page 95.)

 

[gort]

Brigham Young compared his sermons with scripture."I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom...I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 95.)

 

[gort]

Brigham Young said you are ****** if you deny polygamy.
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be ******." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).

 

[gort]

Brigham Young said you can't get to the highest heaven without Joseph Smith's consent.
"...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 289).

Brigham Young said God was progressing in knowledge.
"God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 120).

 

[gort]

Brigham Young said that Jesus was not begotten by the Holy Spirit
"I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 51).

 

[gort]

"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken -- He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).

 

[twhite982]

"The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every Number as it comes forth from the press as an additional reflector of "the light that shines from Zion's hill." (Journal of Discourses Preface. Vol.8)

This statement by George Q. Cannon, Apostle of God, sets the scene for what has become regarded by true Gospel scholars as one of the most important sources of doctrinal teaching in this the dispensation of the fullness of times.

President Joseph F. Smith, counsellor to Brigham Young and later Prophet of God, made this statement with reference to the Journal of Discourses:-

"We feel confident that the important instructions on principle and doctrine therein contained, relative to the building of Temples, the salvation of the dead, the introduction of the Order of Enoch, and the general progress and development of the great Latter-day Work, will prove as interesting, gratifying and beneficial to the Saints and to posterity, as those that have been previously published through this medium.

http://www.mormons.org.uk/journals.htm

Wow,

You've gotta let me catch up here.

While I do agree that there is much good in the J of D, let me again state that it is NOT OFFICIAL LDS DOCTRINE. If making that statement I'm viewed as an LDS not in his "right mind" then so be it. We can't get our wires crossed when it comes to our official sources of LDS doctrine. Our sources are Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price. Our prophets may add to this source of scripture, but there is an order to it. Just by giving a speech doesn't make it official doctrine! I haven't as of yet seen the J of D sold in our church distribution stores. Deseret Book is NOT our church distribution.

TW

 

[twhite982]

"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken -- He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).

Daneel,

Do you even want me to respond?

I can't play catch-up like this!

Sorry so slow!

TW

 

[gort]

No, there is really no need to respond. These are simply statements made by "prophets" of your church.

However, not all are from J of D, yet all seem to be recorded statements, and all conflict with what the New Testament says.

This statement by George Q. Cannon, Apostle of God, sets the scene for what has become regarded by true Gospel scholars as one of the most important sources of doctrinal teaching in this the dispensation of the fullness of times.

 

[twhite982]

No, there is really no need to respond. These are simply statements made by "prophets" of your church.

However, not all are from J of D, yet all seem to be recorded statements, and all conflict with what the New Testament says.

I was just using the J of D as an example, since I'm a little familiar with some of the history. I don't know all the details about every quote you posted from. The point and I think it fits well into this discussion is that to ensure we are standing on sure (LDS) ground we should go to sources of official LDS doctrine, of which I've already stated.

I do agree with some of those quotes you've posted and that is because I can support it scripturally. Of course my scriptural repetiore is larger than what you consider scripture.

As LDS we can't just assume everything that proceeds out of the mouth of an LDS leader is official doctrine, except when tested in light of scripture.

The basic assumptional mistake made by many outside (and sometimes inside) of the LDS church is that ANY source that claims a prophet / apostle stated something that it is automatically doctrine. Which is clearly not the case.

Since this is a thread on the Book of Mormon, do you have any questions about it?

TW

 

[Isaiah 53]

What of the Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony? That is the most unbiblical thing I have ever seen.

Secret hand shakes...Phooey

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

 

[Doc T]

What of the Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony? That is the most unbiblical thing I have ever seen.

Secret hand shakes...Phooey

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

Doc: Well so much for my attempts at keeping this thread on subject. (Not your fault, by the way, Isaiah 53). While I will not discuss specifics of the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony, I would suggest that perhaps you need to do more reading of early Christianity. May I suggest the book by non-LDS scholar Guy G. Stoumsa entitled "Hidden Wisdom: Esoteric Traditions and the Roots of Christian Mysticism". Leiden: Brill, 1996.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Doc: Well so much for my attempts at keeping this thread on subject. (Not your fault, by the way, Isaiah 53). While I will not discuss specifics of the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony, I would suggest that perhaps you need to do more reading of early Christianity. May I suggest the book by non-LDS scholar Guy G. Stoumsa entitled "Hidden Wisdom: Esoteric Traditions and the Roots of Christian Mysticism". Leiden: Brill, 1996.

They never seem to stay on topic..

If it would please you, could you perhaps post portions of this work so that I do not have to wait on Fed Ex?

I do not believe in any type of Christian Mysticism; and after reading the rites of the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony; I know without a doubt the unbiblical nature of your religion.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[Doc T]

Isaiah 53: They never seem to stay on topic..

If it would please you, could you perhaps post portions of this work so that I do not have to wait on Fed Ex?

Doc: You might want to read a review of the book by LDS apologist Barry Bickmore. It can be found at: http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=332&table=review

Isaiah 53: I do not believe in any type of Christian Mysticism; and after reading the rites of the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony; I know without a doubt the unbiblical nature of your religion.

Doc: Not suprising. Just because something is un-Biblical does not mean it is untrue.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Isaiah 53: They never seem to stay on topic..

If it would please you, could you perhaps post portions of this work so that I do not have to wait on Fed Ex?

Doc: You might want to read a review of the book by LDS apologist Barry Bickmore. It can be found at: http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=332&table=review

Isaiah 53: I do not believe in any type of Christian Mysticism; and after reading the rites of the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony; I know without a doubt the unbiblical nature of your religion.

Doc: Not suprising. Just because something is un-Biblical does not mean it is untrue.

True according to whom? The entire thing from beginning to end goes against all the beliefs of Christianity. In fact the Ceremony alone is enough to discredit any claims the LDS church has to their rites as a Christian denomination.

If there are any doubters take a look for yourself:
http://www.irr.org/mit/endowment.html

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

 

[Doc T]

Isaiah 53: True according to whom? The entire thing from beginning to end goes against all the beliefs of Christianity. In fact the Ceremony alone is enough to discredit any claims the LDS church has to their rites as a Christian denomination.

Doc: To quote Aaron, I believe you are begging the question. It goes against the beliefs of Traditional Christianity, but I would argue as many Bible scholars, not against early Christianity. I suggest that you get a bit more up to speed on this aspect of early Christianity before you comment more.


~

 

[Isaiah 53]

Isaiah 53: True according to whom? The entire thing from beginning to end goes against all the beliefs of Christianity. In fact the Ceremony alone is enough to discredit any claims the LDS church has to their rites as a Christian denomination.

Doc: To quote Aaron, I believe you are begging the question. It goes against the beliefs of Traditional Christianity, but I would argue as many Bible scholars, not against early Christianity. I suggest that you get a bit more up to speed on this aspect of early Christianity before you comment more.


~

Please post a definable parallel to early Christianity and the Endowment Ceremony.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

 

[Doc T]

Please post a definable parallel to early Christianity and the Endowment Ceremony.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

Doc: As the LDS, the early Christians did not share their initiation rites with outsiders. So specifics are not spoken of or written about.

That they had them is of no doubt. Barry Bickmore explains:
"
According to Mosheim, Clement of Alexandria claimed to possess a secret tradition of knowledge (Greek gnosis) handed down from the Saviour to the Apostles and on to Clement himself by way of certain of his teachers.

Clement represents this secret discipline, to which he gives the title of gnosis, as having been instituted by Christ himself.... t appears that he considered this gnosis, or gift of knowledge, as having been conferred by our Lord, after his resurrection, on James the Just, John, and Peter, by whom it was communicated to the other apostles; and that by these this treasure was committed to the seventy disciples, of whom Barnabas was one.... Clement makes it a matter of boast that the secret discipline thus instituted by Christ was familiar to those who had been his masters and preceptors, whom he very lavishly extols, and seems to exult not a little in having, under their tuition, enjoyed the advantage of being instructed in it himself.1 ​

Clement represented the true gnosis as having been transmitted to initiates in the form of a "mystery", which, as we have seen, probably meant in a ritual enactment or symbolic ordinance. He also stipulated that certain "purifications and previous instructions" were given before the mysteries were revealed:

But since this tradition is not published alone for him who perceives the magnificence of the word; it is requisite, therefore, to hide in a mystery the wisdom spoken, which the Son of God taught.2

Wherefore also all men are His; some through knowledge, and others not yet so; and some as friends, some as faithful servants, some as servants merely. This is the Teacher, who trains the Gnostic by mysteries, and the believer by good hopes, and the hard of heart by corrective discipline through sensible operation.3

Thence the prophecies and oracles are spoken in enigmas, and the mysteries are not exhibited incontinently to all and sundry, but only after certain purifications and previous instructions.4​

The teachings of these mysteries were probably quite symbolic, and Clement wrote that the Lord teaches in "enigmas" so that one has to work to get at the truth:

Dreams and signs are all more or less obscure to men, not from jealousy (for it were wrong to conceive of God as subject to passions), but in order that research, introducing to the understanding of enigmas, may haste to the discovery of truth.5​

What form did this "mystery" take? Clement made several allusions to the initiation rite in his Stromata and his Exhortation to the Heathen. Another possible reference was made in Clement's recently discovered letter to a certain Theodore, in which he quoted a lost Secret Gospel of Mark."

See: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2671/ECOrTpl.html for the full article and sources quoted.

 

[gort]

Yes, Isaiah53, it is my fault. Unfortunately, I feel that if a prophet of God speaks, he ought to know just what he's saying. I would figure that the Lord would give him the Holy Spirit and nothing BUT truth would flow from his mouth. However, I find that not to be the case with JS and others. If the mormons want to disregard one thing and wholeheartedly believe another, that is a choice.
There is'nt anything I posted in this thread that can't be refuted by the Word of God.