LDS BOOK OF MORMON FALSE HISTORY

[withwonderingawe]

Acts 20:28-30

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

already happened over 2000 years ago

 

[Phil 1:21]

already happened over 2000 years ago

And in 1830.

 

[Rescued One]

“[There is] no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, p. 190

Acts 20
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 7
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[dzheremi]

“[There is] no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, p. 190

Hmm...that sounds awfully familiar...

There is no God but God and Joseph Smith is his prophet (this time around)?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Well I'm just listing here one item after another which points to The Book of Mormon to be something beyond Joseph Smith's knowledge and capabilities. Now if you would like to explain them away be my guest. I'm all ears.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Throughout the Book of Mormon their is a type of poetry called Chiasmus "Chiasmus is a style of writing known in antiquity and mused by many ancient and some modern writers. It consists of arranging a series of words or ideas in one order, and then repeating it in reverse order. In the hands of a skillful writer, this literary form can serve several purposes. The repeating of key words in the two halves underlines the importance of the concepts they present. Furthermore, the main idea of the passage is placed at the turning point where the second half begins, which emphasizes it. The repeating form also enhances clarity and speeds memorizing." fairmormon

"In the 1820s, two British scholars (John Jebb in 1820 and Thomas Boys in 1824 and 1825) published books about their new recognition of this form of parallelism in the Bible, and the 1825 edition of Horne's encyclopedic guide to the critical study of the Bible,..." Fairmormon

However there is no indication that Joseph Smith ever read the books or knew anything about this form of writing, he simply wasn't educated enough. It doesn't look like he even knew they were there, he never spoke about them.

It wasn't until the late 1960s that John Welch was studying ancient writings when he read about chiasmus, he thought to himself mmm the Book of Mormon claims to be of accident Hebrew origin let's see if there is any in there?? He did and was amassed at what he found. The following is Alma 36 .


a My son, give ear to my words (1)
b Keep the commandments and ye shall prosper in the land (1)
c Do as I have done (2)
d Remember the captivity of our fathers (2)
e They were in bondage (2)
f He surely did deliver them (2)
g Trust in God (3)
h Supported in trials, troubles, and afflictions (3)
i Lifted up at the last day (3)
j I know this not of myself but of God (4)
k Born of God (5)
l I sought to destroy the church (6)
m My limbs were paralyzed (7–11)
n Fear of being in the presence of God (14–15)
o Pains of a damned soul (16)
p Harrowed up by the memory of sins (17)
q I remembered Jesus Christ, a Son of God (17)
q' I cried, Jesus, Son of God (18)
p' Harrowed up by the memory of sins no more (19)
o' Joy as exceeding as was the pain (20)
n' Long to be in the presence of God (22)
m' My limbs received strength again (23)
l' I labored to bring souls to repentance (24)
k' Born of God (26)
j' Therefore my knowledge is of God (26)
h' Supported under trials, troubles, and afflictions (27)
g' Trust in him (27)
f' He will deliver me (27)
i' and raise me up at the last day (28)
e' As God brought our fathers out of bondage and captivity (28–29)
d' Retain in remembrance their captivity (28–29)
c' Know as I do know (30)
b' Keep the commandments and ye shall prosper in the land (30)
a' This according to his word (30)

 

[dzheremi]

Ugh. Why do Mormons keep bringing up chiasmus as though it's something that only ancient Hebrew writers ever knew how to do, therefore it's proof that the BOM is an ancient document coming from those people? That makes no sense.

Even the Wikipedia page on the practice (which is not a "type of poetry", as WWA claims above, though it is often used in poetry) cites as examples of it such obviously not-thousands of years old, not-Semitic pieces of writing as Shakespeare and the national anthem of the Netherlands. Significantly, these both date back to the 16th century, and so long predate both Joseph Smith and the two British scholars mentioned above, and long postdate the time period in which the BOM was supposedly composed.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Ugh. Why do Mormons keep bringing up chiasmus as though it's something that only ancient Hebrew writers ever knew how to do, therefore it's proof that the BOM is an ancient document coming from those people? That makes no sense.

Even the Wikipedia page on the practice (which is not a "type of poetry", as WWA claims above, though it is often used in poetry) cites as examples of it such obviously not-thousands of years old, not-Semitic pieces of writing as Shakespeare and the national anthem of the Netherlands. Significantly, these both date back to the 16th century, and so long predate both Joseph Smith and the two British scholars mentioned above, and long postdate the time period in which the BOM was supposedly composed.

Yes but it came from ancient Semitic writings, if it were not there then it would be a proof that The Book of Mormon was not what it claimed to be. Also Joseph Smith simply didn't have that kind of education, don't think he saw much Shakespeare.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I’m going to look at the very last chapter in the Book of Mormon to show just how complicated the writing of it is.

I think Chiasmus are not always so much word for word but thought for thought. And then there are these parallelism meaning; This form consists of two lines of text: the idea or subject of the first line is either repeated directly or echoed, (Fairmormon) And then literary topo made of list either to emphasizes a point or a general list of items of 7 or 14.

So one chapter can get very complicated;

In the last chapter Moroni has a loosely knit form of Chiasmus. In verse 1 there is a mention of the first coming of Christ

1 …have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.

And then in the last passage there is a reference to the second coming

34 …..I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you

*In the middle there is this

17 And all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ;
18 remember that every good gift cometh of Christ.

So there is an over all Chiasmus *But then there is a change in the flow

7 …..for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

And we have to jump clear to verse 19 to find the repeat.

19 …that ye remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever,….only according to the unbelief of the children of men.


*Between 8 and 16 there is a literary topo with a list of 7 spiritual gifts, he really like that number 7.

8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.

9 For behold, to one is given by the Spirit of God, that he may teach the word of wisdom; 1
10 And to another, that he may teach the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 2
11 And to another, exceedingly great faith;…. the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 3
12 And again, to another, that he may work mighty miracles;4
13 And again, to another, that he may prophesy concerning all things; 5
14 And again, to another, the beholding of angels and ministering spirits; 6
15 And again, to another, all kinds of tongues; 7
16 And again, to another, the interpretation of languages
and of divers kinds of tongues.

*Then starting in verse 20 there is a parallelism

20 Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity.
21 And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God;
Vs.
neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope.
22 And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity.

Faith, hope and charity will lead to being saved in the kingdom of God but a lack of faith, hope brings about iniquity and so you won’t be saved in the kingdom of God.

*Starting in verse 24-26 there is another small Chiasmus;

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.
25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God.
26 And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.

*and then another kind of literary topo of a list trying to emphasizing a thought

1,And I exhort you to remember these things;
2,and the Lord God will say unto you:
3,Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man,
3,like as one crying from the dead,
4,yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?
5, I declare these things unto the fulfilling of the prophecies.
6, they shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the everlasting God;
7,and his word shall hiss forth from generation to generation.
8, And God shall show unto you,
9, that that which I have written is true.
10, And again I would exhort you

*And then his closing plead which is crying to you from the dust;

30...that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.
31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.

 

[dzheremi]

Yes but it came from ancient Semitic writings, if it were not there then it would be a proof that The Book of Mormon was not what it claimed to be. Also Joseph Smith simply didn't have that kind of education, don't think he saw much Shakespeare.

It is in no way exclusive to or characteristic of Semitic writings. It may have been first observed in those writings by the British scholars you mentioned (I really don't know), but again, it's also observed in completely non-Semitic writings such as the national anthem of the Netherlands and Shakespeare. It has nothing to do with the provenance of the writings, nor the educational level of the people using it. Shakespeare's use of it just confirms this, as even if Joseph Smith had never read him, it's equally the case that the writer of Wilhelmus (the aforementioned national anthem of the Netherlands) hadn't either, as the text of Wilhelmus dates back to at least 1572, while Shakespeare's first plays did not appear until the early 1590s.

Are you going to claim that the national anthem of the Netherlands is somehow a piece of ancient Semitic writing? Obviously not, because the presence of chiasmus in no way proves nor even hints that it is so. Literally anyone can employ chiasmus in anything that they write.

Ask not why [what you believe to be a point in favor of Mormonism] [is so weak];
Ask why [you are so weak] as to believe that this is [a point in favor of Mormonism]


^^^ Chiasmus (AB x BA) in action; I guess I am an ancient Semitic Nephite now.

 

[Jane_Doe]

It is in no way exclusive to or characteristic of Semitic writings. It may have been first observed in those writings by the British scholars you mentioned (I really don't know), but again, it's also observed in completely non-Semitic writings such as the national anthem of the Netherlands and Shakespeare. It has nothing to do with the provenance of the writings, nor the educational level of the people using it. Shakespeare's use of it just confirms this, as even if Joseph Smith had never read him, it's equally the case that the writer of Wilhelmus (the aforementioned national anthem of the Netherlands) hadn't either, as the text of Wilhelmus dates back to at least 1572, while Shakespeare's first plays did not appear until the early 1590s.

Dzheremi, where do you propose a farm boy with <3rd grade education acquired writing style including complex Chiasmus? Are you proposing from his great knowledge of Shakespeare or Dutch anthems? Or somewhere else?

^^^ Chiasmus (AB x BA) in action; I guess I am an ancient Semitic Nephite now.

*Disrespect noted*

 

[dzheremi]

Dzheremi, where do you propose a farm boy with <3rd grade education acquired writing style including complex Chiasmus? Are you proposing from his great knowledge of Shakespeare or Dutch anthems? Or somewhere else?

No, Jane. My point is that it is not evidence of anything. Joseph Smith, or a five year old listening to JFK's "Ask not what your country can do for you..." speech, or any other person in any other situation could easily pick up on it and use and reproduce it in a million different contexts, and it would not mean anything. It's not something that you need to have a great education, or even be able to read or write, to use. It's a kind of figure of speech, so assuming you can speak (I don't know about its use in signed languages; it's probably present in them as well), you can use chiasmus. It doesn't mean anything. It's certainly not any kind of evidence of the supposedly ancient Semitic nature of the BOM.

 

[Jane_Doe]

No, Jane. My point is that it is not evidence of anything. Joseph Smith, or a five year old listening to JFK's "Ask not what your country can do for you..." speech, or any other person in any other situation could easily pick up on it and use and reproduce it in a million different contexts, and it would not mean anything. It's not something that you need to have a great education, or even be able to read or write, to use. It's a kind of figure of speech, so assuming you can speak (I don't know about its use in signed languages; it's probably present in them as well), you can use chiasmus. It doesn't mean anything. It's certainly not any kind of evidence of the supposedly ancient Semitic nature of the BOM.

Do you think a 5 year old could have just randomly written the multi-level chiasmus shown in post 49?
There are other BoM chiasmus which span chapters. Do you know any 5 year old who could have written that? Or, if you'd rather: a 8 year old, since that's the level of education Joseph Smith had.

 

[dzheremi]

Again, Jane Doe, chiasmus is simply a structural pattern found in certain writings or sayings, of the type already presented: AB x BA. It's not a magical thing that only highly educated people can produce, or people of a certain background or age or what have you. It is no kind of evidence of any kind that it is present or not present in any particular piece of writing.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Again, Jane Doe, chiasmus is simply a structural pattern found in certain writings or sayings, of the type already presented: AB x BA. It's not a magical thing that only highly educated people can produce, or people of a certain background or age or what have you. It is no kind of evidence of any kind that it is present or not present in any particular piece of writing.

And not know he did it?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Again, Jane Doe, chiasmus is simply a structural pattern found in certain writings or sayings, of the type already presented: AB x BA. It's not a magical thing that only highly educated people can produce, or people of a certain background or age or what have you. It is no kind of evidence of any kind that it is present or not present in any particular piece of writing.

You didn't answer my question:

Do you think a 5 year old could have just randomly written the multi-level chiasmus shown in post 49?
There are other BoM chiasmus which span chapters. Do you know any 5 year old who could have written that? Or, if you'd rather: a 8 year old, since that's the level of education Joseph Smith had.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Here’s 1 Nephi 1 on the very first page.

1.….having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God,

3.….therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.

4 …..and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying

5 …..my father, Lehi, as he went forth prayed unto the Lord,

6.….and he saw and heard much; and because of the things which he saw and heard he did quake and tremble exceedingly.

7...being overcome with the Spirit

9 ….beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day.

10 …..their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament.

12 …..he was filled with the Spirit of the Lord.

13.…And it came to pass that when my father had read and seen many great and marvelous things,

14 …… he did exclaim many things unto the Lord…

15 …which the Lord had shown unto him…he also hath written many things which he prophesied

17.…Behold, I make an abridgment of the record of my father, upon plates which I have made with mine own hands;

17….then will I make an account of mine own life.

20 …..behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen,

 

[withwonderingawe]

From Fairmormon

Another fine example of chiasmus is found in Helaman 6:7–13, the annual record for the sixty-fourth year of the reign of the judges. Its main features are as follows:

a "And behold, there was peace in all the land" (6:7).
b [Freedom of travel and trade in both lands is discussed (6:7–8)]
c "And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites;
d and they did have an exceeding plenty of . . . precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north" (6:9).
e 1 "Now the land south
e2 was called Lehi, and
e3the land north
e4 was called Mulek,
e5 which was after the son of Zedekiah;
5 for the Lord
4 did bring Mulek
3 into the land north,
2 and Lehi
1 into the land south" (6:10).
d' "And behold, there was all manner of gold in both these lands, and of silver, and of precious ore of every kind;
c' and there were also curious workmen, who did work all kinds of ore and did refine it; and thus they did become rich" (6:11).
b' [Economic prosperity in both lands is discussed (6:12–13)]
a' "And thus the sixty and fourth year did pass away in peace" (6:13).</blockquote>

"This composition is remarkable in several ways. First, the report itself is beautifully executed. The overall structure is concentrically organized, and individual words, phrases, and ideas that appear in the first half are repeated with precision and balance in the second half. This entry exhibits both fine quality and admirable length." Fairmormon

Joseph just wrote up a year's report as a chiasmus just for the fun of it? Oh....wait a minute he didn't know he had done it

 

[withwonderingawe]

This is Alma 41
O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again

evil for

evil, or

carnal for

carnal, or

devilish for

devilish--

good for that which is

good;

righteous for that which is

righteous;

just for that which is

just;

merciful for that which is

merciful. (climax)

a. Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren;

b. deal justly

c. judge righteously,

d. and do good continually;

e. and if ye do all these things

f. then shall ye receive your reward;

a' yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again;

b' ye shall have justice restored unto you again;

c' ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again;

d' and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again.

e' For that which ye do send out

f' shall return unto you again, and be restored; (extended alternate)

[Donald W. Parry, The Book of Mormon Text Reformatted according to Parallelistic Patterns, pp. 291-292] Alma 41 | Step By Step Through the Book of Mormon

 

[fatboys]

From Fairmormon

Another fine example of chiasmus is found in Helaman 6:7–13, the annual record for the sixty-fourth year of the reign of the judges. Its main features are as follows:

a "And behold, there was peace in all the land" (6:7).
b [Freedom of travel and trade in both lands is discussed (6:7–8)]
c "And it came to pass that they became exceedingly rich, both the Lamanites and the Nephites;
d and they did have an exceeding plenty of . . . precious metals, both in the land south and in the land north" (6:9).
e 1 "Now the land south
e2 was called Lehi, and
e3the land north
e4 was called Mulek,
e5 which was after the son of Zedekiah;
5 for the Lord
4 did bring Mulek
3 into the land north,
2 and Lehi
1 into the land south" (6:10).
d' "And behold, there was all manner of gold in both these lands, and of silver, and of precious ore of every kind;
c' and there were also curious workmen, who did work all kinds of ore and did refine it; and thus they did become rich" (6:11).
b' [Economic prosperity in both lands is discussed (6:12–13)]
a' "And thus the sixty and fourth year did pass away in peace" (6:13).</blockquote>

"This composition is remarkable in several ways. First, the report itself is beautifully executed. The overall structure is concentrically organized, and individual words, phrases, and ideas that appear in the first half are repeated with precision and balance in the second half. This entry exhibits both fine quality and admirable length." Fairmormon

Joseph just wrote up a year's report as a chiasmus just for the fun of it? Oh....wait a minute he didn't know he had done it

And this from a man who according to his wife couldn't write a coherent paragraph.