Bnp

[non-religious]

As a mixed race person myself and more importantly a Christian, I am always encouraged by the postive stance taken by the posters here who are against views held by BNP supporters and their ilk. It amazes me when I hear from people who claim to love Christ, yet support a repugnant so-called poltical party like the BNP.

It's pointless engaging in any form of debate with people like this....

 

[bunced]

- again, please refer to their website. When asked "are you racist" the BNP reply is

I think this is the a question of semantics, and personally, whatever they say, I would interpret their actions and words as being racist

I support the BNP yet I am 100% non-racist. - I have a very good Asian friend and also some great African family friends.

I don't know you therefore I am not gonna say you are racist, because that wouldn't be fair. Besides, issues get nasty when debated on a personal level, and I'm sure it'll do none of us any good to go there (gotta love these smileys!)

a quote from their website would be appreciated

Sure thing http://www.bnp.org.uk/articles/christianrevival.htm

it does if the fear is justified.

In my opinion the fear is not justified - there are more places than I can shake a stick up where multicultural living is so embedded people don't even think about it anymore but just take it as a matter of fact that people different to each other can live side by side.

I think there is more tension, especially in some of the more northern parts of England where the immigration is newer, but I believe, again, that this can be overcome by dialogue on both sides. The vast majority of immigrants (not all, I know) value the English/British way of life, and British values and want to support them. Heck, they probably even like talking about the weather like us! They also put £14 billion pounds more into the economy through tax then they take out through benefits.

In the end, I think whilst people still look at people in terms of skin colour, there is a problem. There should be no difference between black and white, or between those who immigrated and those who have lived here since Henry V (best Shakespeare play ever btw!). I think everyone needs to learn to look beyond the colour of someone's skin.

Islam as a religion believes Christians to be inferior -

- how can we have dialogue with people who hate us?

There are passages in the Bible which could be read in a similar way. However, the mainstream of Muslims (again not all, you're gonna get card waving fanatics everywhere, even your local cricket team!) support interfaith dialogue, and there is a very healthy interfaith dialogue in this country which, if drawn closer, can only bring positive influences. Again, by talking, I believe we can learn from each other and about each other, and the more we learn, the less we have to fear.

please refer to the following (from the BNP website, in response to the Question "When you talk about being british, what do you mean?":

- 40 years of different food and music doesn't override thousands of years of natural European assimilation.

This is one person's interpretation of being British, and isn't a particularly historically accurate on in my view - we have always been a mixing pot of races and religions. I mean, we spent at least 80 years with a German monarch who didn't speak English! Now that's got to be bad for integration!

On the "all learn together point", please refer to the quote from the Koran.

Obviously, see my point above, but again I'd emphasise what I see as the importance of dialogue between anyone. Talking can bring reconciliation and acceptance

i'm not advocating indoctrination, I just believe that sometimes the thing that lets evil happen is good men to standing by doing nothing, just leaving the door open to cults and sects.

Ok, my bad. Indocrination was probably too strong a term to use and I apologise for this.

What I do think though is that the school system should be independant of any religion when it comes to teaching about religion. This means Children can have open minds and the ability to question ideas, which is healthy too any society - like you say, bad things happen because good people do nothing, and I think if our children can robustly question what people say, there is less chance bad things taking ground. And, again, I feel Christianity can stand up to the questioning

I didn't mean to come across as if Homosexuality is the most important aspect of society. Of course there are other serious problems that need dealing with.

I didn't mean to come across as attacking you - it's just my major bugbear with the church today. We just all need to look beyond sexual orientation and deal with the bigger issues

I've been let down by a society that tells me I need to accept homosexualty and debauchery as the norm. It's like guarding the front gates yet leaving the back right open.

I think we'll agree to disagree on this point

i'm glad you haven't resulted to the usual "you racist ignorant bigot" comments that I usually get.

And neither am I going to my friend.

lol feel free to ridicule. It wouldn't be fair of me to always counter your points yet not let you do the same for mine.

How kind

As a mixed race person myself and more importantly a Christian, I am always encouraged by the postive stance taken by the posters here who are against views held by BNP supporters and their ilk. It amazes me when I hear from people who claim to love Christ, yet support a repugnant so-called poltical party like the BNP.

It's pointless engaging in any form of debate with people like this....

Whilst I understand where you are coming from, I don't think it is helpful to attack the people who support it - attack the issue itself! And it is always worthwhile engaging in debate with anyone until they prove otherwise - dialogue is the only way forward

OK, I'll shut up now and leave you in peace (is that collective cheer I hear? )

Blessings
David

 

[non-religious]

bunced
Whilst I understand where you are coming from, I don't think it is helpful to attack the people who support it - attack the issue itself!

I didn't attack anyone.....

And it is always worthwhile engaging in debate with anyone until they prove otherwise - dialogue is the only way forward

True.....

But the rhetoric that comes out of the BNP camp is not worth my time or energy debating with. Any organisation that judges people based upon the colour of their skin or resorts to using crude stereotypes and let's face it, has absolutely no credible policies is hardly worth wasting time on. I just can't be bothered with them....

 

[jhollas]

I feel that this debate has brought out the cunning and deviousness of the BNP, that lies at the very heart of how they operate. The BNP is very, very adept at preying on the fears of Middle England, and expanding them out of all proportions.

In this case, it is the pledge for a "re-Christianisation" of the UK.

On the subject of immigration and racism... I think all this country needs (I say 'all,' but it's a massive task) is much more stringent border control, a more efficient Home Office, and a positive incentive not to sponge off the Welfare State.
(e.g. Hello, and welcome to Britain. You are indeed welcome here, but please take some time to familiarise yourself with our language and customs. In the process of doing so, please also look for a job, in which time we are happy to support you. However, if after 3-6 months you have proven that you are reluctant to find a job, and merely wish to live off our hand-outs and refuse to contribute to society, then please toddle off out the exit gate so that we can spend the money on something more reasonable, like the NHS. Many thanks, and enjoy your stay.)

 

[bunced]

I didn't attack anyone.....

In that case, I misunderstood you and I'm sorry

 

[JRW1989]

As a mixed race person myself and more importantly a Christian, I am always encouraged by the postive stance taken by the posters here who are against views held by BNP supporters and their ilk.

- why's that? Is it because of the image cultivated by the media?

It amazes me when I hear from people who claim to love Christ, yet support a repugnant so-called poltical party like the BNP.

- What about the repugnant policies of other parties?

...so-called poltical party...

- please find a link to their registration with the Electoral Commission - http://www.electoralcommission.org....cfm?frmGB=1&frmPartyID=38&frmType=partydetail

It's pointless engaging in any form of debate with people like this....

- people like me?

 

[Allister]

We want the same human rights as everyone else, a right to a homeland, security, identity, democracy and freedom.

Haven't you already got these rights?

all we want to do is to preserve the ethnic and cultural identity of the British people.

Can you show where the ethnic and cultural identity of the British people are in threat? also how would you define the ethinic and cultural identity of the British?

We are against a system which imports cheap labour regardless of the wishes of the host population

I am a member of this host population and foriegn labour is not against my wishes.

...I believe as a Christian that people should be informed of other religions yet it should be made clear that they are no substitue for the truth

I believe, as an atheist, that people should be informed of all religions, including yours, and that no religion should be singled out in favour of others becuase they are all valid ideas in competition against each other. from Christianity to Islam and from Roman Gods to Aboriginal Australian religions.

...I agree with free speech too but I also believe that Christians must take a stand against Homosexuality.

Why don't you just leave them alone. what has the practises of two men or two women got to do with you. are you so insecure in your own self that you can't allow two people happiness and freedom.

It utterly shatters the concept of a stable, natural relationship

Yeah, and so what? I was raised in an unstable single parent household. is that also a problem?

and it leads to all other sorts of sin (sodomy being the main one for obvious reasons).

But many, many people do not agree with you. many people do not believe that homosexuality leads to sin. I don't believe in such a thing as sin and just becuase you do gives you no right to force your beliefs on others.

I am not against gay people as humans

How very noble of you.

but I vehomontly oppose their efforts to get their twisted practices backed by law

what, freedom?

The UK was a country that used to hang homosexuals and arrested practising homosexuals up until 1969 (Sexual Offences Act 1967)

and you think this is a good thing?

 

[Bonhoffer]

the BNP are a pagan party who hate Israel and endorse social Darwinism.

nuff said!

 

[JRW1989]

the BNP are a pagan party who hate Israel and endorse social Darwinism.

nuff said!

[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] where on earth did that come from?

 

[JRW1989]

Haven't you already got these rights?

- nope. As this post probably shows, 99.9% of people are against the BNP and what they stand for. I can have those rights only if I change my viewpoint and espouse some ***political ideology removed** bull- until then I guess i'll always be called a racist, fascist bigot

Can you show where the ethnic and cultural identity of the British people are in threat?

-

Multiculturalism is to blame for eroding the core of British identity and civilisation.


Melanie Phillips
The radicalisation of British Muslims went on again completely below the official radar. These were people, communities that came in the1980s from the Indian subcontinent and, unbeknownst to the British authorities, were being radicalised because their home communities, particularly in Pakistan, had been radicalised by Saudi Arabian wahhabism.
Consequently, when British Muslims immigrants set up religious institutions in the 1980s, these were run by and financed by wahhabi and other extremist jihadi ideologies, and consequently radicalised large numbers of British Muslims without anyone realising this process was going on.
The British establishment understands that it's facing a terrible terrorist threat. It has to intercept and thwart terrorist plots and break up terrorist cells. What it is failing to do is understand that terror is merely the product of something bigger that has to be fought.
The thing that has to be fought is the political ideology which is driving these people to do these terrible things. The British establishment refuses to acknowledge this. It is taking refuge in all these excuses to do with foreign policy or Islamophobia or discrimination. It is refusing to get to grips with the fact that unless it starts to take on the ideas that are driving the jihad, it is not going to get very far.
In my view, they should take it on in a number of different ways. At a rhetorical level, to say that the ideas that are driving this terrible jihad against the west are shared by a large number of Muslims who would not lend themselves at all to terror or violence but who, nevertheless, share these ideas; the idea, for example, that the west hopes to destroy Islam, that the Jews are the puppet masters of the west; that the Arab and Muslim world is the historic victim of the west; the idea that Israel is an illegitimate incursion into Arab and Muslim historic territory. These are false. These ideas should be faced down in public. The people should be told that these ideas are simply wrong.
I think the doctrine of multiculturalism is a very important part of our problem because it basically has hollowed out British national identity and we can’t fight the threat from outside if we are busy undermining our own culture and indeed no longer know or wish to defend what it is.
While the state believes that they are welcome to set up communities of faith without interference by the state, the quid pro quo is that the minority faith makes no demands upon the state and on western society. That is the basis on which all minority faiths are accommodated in this country. Consequently, there can be no accommodation by the state to the demands made upon it by any minority faith. There can be no exceptions made to any minority faith. Those are the kind of ground rules that have to be laid down and administered. - http://www.madrid11.net/article/ukmuslims070207

also how would you define the ethinic and cultural identity of the British?

-

Q: When you talk about being "British" what do you mean?

A: We mean the bonds of culture, race, identity and roots of the native British peoples of the British Isles. We have lived in these islands near on 40,000 years! We were made by these islands, and these islands are our home. When we in the BNP talk about being British, we talk about the native peoples who have lived in these islands since before the Stone Age, and the relatively small numbers of peoples of almost identical stock, such as the Saxons, Vikings and Normans, and the Irish, who have come here and assimilated. BNP FAQ section

I am a member of this host population and foriegn labour is not against my wishes.

but you're not everyone- http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/omi060101069_1.pdf

...becuase they are all valid ideas in competition against each other. from Christianity to Islam and from Roman Gods to Aboriginal Australian religions.

- Some may have an equal view in your eyes but to others it can be completely different i.e. as a Christian I certainly don't think the passages of that Koran that state Jews and Chrisitans should be subjected to taxation and persecution have the same moral standing as the Bible.

Why don't you just leave them alone. what has the practises of two men or two women got to do with you. are you so insecure in your own self that you can't allow two people happiness and freedom.

- I love the insecure arguement . I didn't realise you knew me, my life and my character so well. I'm not insecure in the slightest, I just don't agree with what they are doing as I believe it goes against the Bible.

Yeah, and so what? I was raised in an unstable single parent household. is that also a problem?

- nope, I was/still am too.

But many, many people do not agree with you. many people do not believe that homosexuality leads to sin. I don't believe in such a thing as sin and just becuase you do gives you no right to force your beliefs on others.

- i'm not forcing my ideas, i'm just saying what I think is wrong in society. I can see by your icon you an atheist and I respect your right to believe what you want (no matter how much I disagree with it). If you look back you'll also find i'm not advocating forcing everyone to comply with my beliefs, i'm just standing up for what I believe in. If everyone was like me, then there'd be no ***political ideology removed*** to debate with. It'd be boring as.

How very noble of you.

- thanks

and you think this is a good thing?

***answer removed***

 

[Pogue]

What exactly is a British nation identity? I've read the quotes posted from the BNP website, and visited the site myself, but haven't found anything that applies to anyone I know, and most people I know are British. Their definition of Britishness doesn't appear to fit anything which exists in reality. What do they mean when they say that 'We have lived on these islands for 40,000 years'? Surely nobody's that old?? (I'm not being entirely serious on that last point)
But does anyone know any British person whose family has been solely British for more than, say, 300 years? Even if you can think of somebody, does it matter? Do you have any more right to live somewhere just because your ancestors have lived there? I don't see it that way, myself.

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] where on earth did that come from?

While never stated outright the pagan part is hinted at

Schools in England will be encouraged to celebrate May Day and other ancient festivals, whilst the other folk nations of the British Isles will be encouraged to resurrect their ancestral folk traditions.

Social Darwinism? Don't know but you never know with such parties, I wouldn't be surprised if they did go down the road of eugenics.

 

[JRW1989]

What exactly is a British nation identity? I've read the quotes posted from the BNP website, and visited the site myself, but haven't found anything that applies to anyone I know, and most people I know are British. Their definition of Britishness doesn't appear to fit anything which exists in reality. What do they mean when they say that 'We have lived on these islands for 40,000 years'? Surely nobody's that old?? (I'm not being entirely serious on that last point)

-

10 Core Values of British Identity



I. The rule of law. Our society is based on the idea that we all abide by the same rules, whatever our wealth or status. No one is above the law - not even the government.
II. The sovereignty of the Crown in Parliament. The Lords, the Commons and the monarch constitute the supreme authority in the land. There is no appeal to any higher jurisdiction, spiritual or temporal.
III. The pluralist state. Equality before the law implies that no one should be treated differently on the basis of belonging to a particular group. Conversely, all parties, sects, faiths and ideologies must tolerate the existence of their rivals.
IV. Personal freedom. There should be a presumption, always and everywhere, against state coercion. We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
V. Private property. Freedom must include the freedom to buy and sell without fear of confiscation, to transfer ownership, to sign contracts and have them enforced. Britain was quicker than most countries to recognise this and became, in consequence, one of the happiest and most prosperous nations on Earth.
VI. Institutions. British freedom and British character are immanent in British institutions. These are not, mostly, statutory bodies, but spring from the way free individuals regulate each other's conduct, and provide for their needs, without recourse to coercion.
VII. The family. Civic society depends on values being passed from generation to generation. Stable families are the essential ingredient of a stable society.
VIII. History. British children inherit a political culture, a set of specific legal rights and obligations, and a stupendous series of national achievements. They should be taught about these things.
IX. The English-speaking world. The atrocities of September 11, 2001, were not simply an attack on a foreign nation; they were an attack on the anglosphere - on all of us who believe in freedom, justice and the rule of law.
X. The British character. Shaped by and in turn shaping our national institutions is our character as a people: stubborn, stoical, indignant at injustice. "The Saxon," wrote Kipling, "never means anything seriously till he talks about justice and right." - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/07/27/dl2701.xml

But does anyone know any British person whose family has been solely British for more than, say, 300 years?

- yep, been in this neck of the woods for just under 500 years and been in the British Isles/Northern Germany for roughly 1300 years (family tree gets very sketchy that far back lol)

Even if you can think of somebody, does it matter?

- yes. These islands are my home

Do you have any more right to live somewhere just because your ancestors have lived there?

- yes. How can you logically compare 500 years of work, tax-paying and public service with a family of, for example, Pakistani or Polish nationals. My roots go deep here, theirs barely scratch the topsoil.

I don't see it that way, myself

- the pros of being in a democracy. I'd, naturally, have to disagree with you though.

 

[JRW1989]

While never stated outright the pagan part is hinted at

- where's it hinted at?

Social Darwinism? Don't know but you never know with such parties, I wouldn't be surprised if they did go down the road of eugenics.

- where'd that come from?

 

[Pogue]

-


- yep, been in this neck of the woods for just under 500 years and been in the British Isles/Northern Germany for roughly 1300 years (family tree gets very sketchy that far back lol)

So nobody in the past 500 years in your family has come from outside Britain? Ever? This makes you more British than the Queen. Wow.

- yes. These islands are my home

A home's just where you live. My home was once Colchester. After I moved house, it wasn't anymore. In a couple of years, my home will become Germany, after that the Netherlands, and then I move back to Sheffield. None of that has anything to do with my family history. It's got everything to do with where I actually am and to some extent, how much I give back to the community.

- yes. How can you logically compare 500 years of work, tax-paying and public service with a family of, for example, Pakistani or Polish nationals. My roots go deep here, theirs barely scratch the topsoil.

Because the 500 years of work has as much to do with me as it does to do with the Pakistani or Polish nationals. I've got no claim to feel proud of the achievements of people who died long before I was born, just because we share a nationality. To spin it round a bit: do you feel personally responsible for the negative things that Britain has been responsible for in the past? You probably shouldn't feel any more responsible than anyone else, because it was nothing to do with you. The same goes for positive acheivements.

Regarding the British character- I really don't see that your character directly depends on your nationality. Maybe on your upbringing, but I don't see that it's an innate thing that you have simply because of what your passport has written on it. I interact with people from different countries on a regular basis (the pros of being a modern languages student ) and honestly, any differences that there are in terms of character are purely cultural, not innate.

 

[JRW1989]

So nobody in the past 500 years in your family has come from outside Britain? Ever? This makes you more British than the Queen. Wow.

Nope, been here ages and i've got the family tree too. Wasn't the queen of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (e.g. north german) lineage? Queen Vics husband was one of them I think?

A home's just where you live. My home was once Colchester. After I moved house, it wasn't anymore. In a couple of years, my home will become Germany, after that the Netherlands, and then I move back to Sheffield. None of that has anything to do with my family history. It's got everything to do with where I actually am and to some extent, how much I give back to the community.

- There's a difference between Houses and your country though....

Because the 500 years of work has as much to do with me as it does to do with the Pakistani or Polish nationals.

- no it doesn't. My family is the one who's been in these lands for that long and i'm not going to bow down to a 1st or 2nd generation immigrant with a VISA and a cousin in Bradford.

I've got no claim to feel proud of the achievements of people who died long before I was born, just because we share a nationality.

- my points not about acheivement. It's about identity and culture

To spin it round a bit: do you feel personally responsible for the negative things that Britain has been responsible for in the past? You probably shouldn't feel any more responsible than anyone else, because it was nothing to do with you. The same goes for positive acheivements.

- what has that got to do with proving my claim to Britain is worth more than that of a foreign national? I'm proud of the empire and not ashamed if thats what you mean

Regarding the British character- I really don't see that your character directly depends on your nationality. Maybe on your upbringing, but I don't see that it's an innate thing that you have simply because of what your passport has written on it. I interact with people from different countries on a regular basis (the pros of being a modern languages student ) and honestly, any differences that there are in terms of character are purely cultural, not innate.

- The character doesn't neccessarily refer to individuals at birth but most probably institutions and way of thinking

 

[TemperateSeaIsland]

- where's it hinted at?

- where'd that come from?

The BNP are a pagan party who hate Israel and endorse social Darwinism.

You answered with

[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] where on earth did that come from?

And then I said

While never stated outright the pagan part is hinted at....

Schools in England will be encouraged to celebrate May Day and other ancient festivals, whilst the other folk nations of the British Isles will be encouraged to resurrect their ancestral folk traditions.

Social Darwinism? Don't know but you never know with such parties, I wouldn't be surprised if they did go down the road of eugenics.

Got it?

 

[JRW1989]

OK, I better re-phrase it a little...

While never stated outright the pagan part is hinted at

...then...

manifesto
Schools in England will be encouraged to celebrate May Day and other ancient festivals, whilst the other folk nations of the British Isles will be encouraged to resurrect their ancestral folk traditions.

I don't know if you've noticed but May Day and folk traditions aren't neccessarily pagan. They're as much about tradition as religion. Sort of along the same lines as Christmas festivites and Easter and easter eggs - loosely based on religion (i.e. religion is the underlying point) yet they're fun and anyone (regardless of religion) can take part.

Social Darwinism? Don't know but you never know with such parties, I wouldn't be surprised if they did go down the road of eugenics.

- if you've got a quote or reference to back that up it would be helpful. Otherwise it's just hearsay.

Got it?

I have now

 

[Pogue]

Nope, been here ages and i've got the family tree too. Wasn't the queen of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (e.g. north german) lineage? Queen Vics husband was one of them I think?

Yeah, I think the Queen's pretty much German. Aber leider spricht sie wahrscheinlich kein deutsch

- There's a difference between Houses and your country though....

True enough, but you can feel at home in a different country.

- no it doesn't. My family is the one who's been in these lands for that long and i'm not going to bow down to a 1st or 2nd generation immigrant with a VISA and a cousin in Bradford

But why does the fact that your family have been here longer make your right to the land any stronger? We can't give or deprive people of rights just based on the length of time their families have been in one place.

- my points not about acheivement. It's about identity and culture

But why should people who I never knew have anything to do with my culture?
I don't think culture's something that remains static in the past and needs to be preserved. On the contary, it's something which changes with time. 'British' culture has changed throughout history, and it's changed partly due to the influence of other cultures. Most of our customs originate from elsewhere.

- what has that got to do with proving my claim to Britain is worth more than that of a foreign national? I'm proud of the empire and not ashamed if thats what you mean

Well, my point was that if you're going to feel personally proud of the acheivements of dead British people, you've got to take on the responsibility for all of the negative things that every British person has ever done. It has to work both ways, logically. But it doesn't work either way.

- The character doesn't neccessarily refer to individuals at birth but most probably institutions and way of thinking

Not quite sure what you mean here. By institutions, do you mean political ones? Because that would mean that every person who lived in a democracy would have the same character, and so on. And I don't see much difference in 'ways of thinking' between different nationalities.

 

[JRW1989]

Yeah, I think the Queen's pretty much German. Aber leider spricht sie wahrscheinlich kein deutsch

- Yeah, what sort of german can't speak there only language?

But why does the fact that your family have been here longer make your right to the land any stronger? We can't give or deprive people of rights just based on the length of time their families have been in one place.

- It's not just the time, it's the contribution the country over that time.

But why should people who I never knew have anything to do with my culture?

- because they helped shape current society.

I don't think culture's something that remains static in the past and needs to be preserved.

- I respect your opinion but I believe that it's a shame to overwrite hundreds (if not thousands) of years of history. If that starts to happen, they might as well build a motorway through stonehenge.

On the contary, it's something which changes with time. 'British' culture has changed throughout history, and it's changed partly due to the influence of other cultures.

- have to agree with you there. Wether that change is good or bad is a different matter

Most of our customs originate from elsewhere.

- from where?

Well, my point was that if you're going to feel personally proud of the acheivements of dead British people, you've got to take on the responsibility for all of the negative things that every British person has ever done. It has to work both ways, logically. But it doesn't work either way.

- I know. I am proud of my counties history and all the things its done. Before I get people calling me evil and inhumane you've got to remember that there is good and bad history in all nations. None are free of blemishes.

Not quite sure what you mean here. By institutions, do you mean political ones?

and public service organisations

Because that would mean that every person who lived in a democracy would have the same character, and so on.

- not neccessarily. People don't always confirm to what those institutions declare to be right; and being in a democracy only enhances their right to do that (provided they're not breaking the law)

And I don't see much difference in 'ways of thinking' between different nationalities.

- compare the treatment of women in the United Kingdom and Iran. I can't think of a more different way of national thinking