Blood sacrifice...

[Choir Loft]

The way I see it is: what people have done is one thing.....but what God has modeled for us (or asked for is something else entirely). IOW.....Abel's sacrifice that God was pleased with doesn't necessarily mean it was the slaughter of an animal that pleased God....but perhaps could have been Abel's full devotion to God (even to the point of his OWN death).

You speak from subjective post modernist interpretation and your words are false.

God's Word tells us specifically what God's mind is on the matter.

Your opinion or how you see it, is irrelevant.

God's Law determines the definition for sin, the payment for it and how sin is to be dealt with.

According to GOD,
not you,
the penalty for sin is death - the shedding of blood.

Able's sacrifice involved shedding blood. Taking an animal's life. It was accepted by God.

Cain's sacrifice was unacceptable ACCORDING TO GOD'S LAW, not your opinion on the matter.

You can't get blood out of a fruit or grain of wheat.

God's Law is absolute, not subject to the agreement of a Rabbinic committee or the attitude of some self-important goyim on an internet forum.

Though ten thousand voices argue otherwise, not one point shall be removed from the Law.

The penalty for sin is death.
The payment of this penalty must be in blood because the life of a man or animal is its blood. (Donating your flat screen television to charity won't do it. Sending flowers to heaven by angelic courier won't do it either.)

If you want to know God's mind on a subject, the best way to do it is to consult His Word - The Bible.

GOD is not interested in your opinion. Heaven isn't a democracy.

Wake up and learn what God expects ... because if you wait until you meet Him it may be too late.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Inkfingers]

In order for God to grant forgiveness of sin to humanity, a guiltless innocent perfect human life had to pay the penalty.

That is neither justice nor mercy.

That is the kind of thing that Mafia dons would like to get away with.

 

[Chinchilla]

Can you explain how sending an innocent to die in order to get the guilty off the hook is Justice?

I mean really explain it, not deflect it with quotes that do not address the actual issue there.

Alredy explained it . When Jesus was dying he was not innocent but he took sin on himself and was made sin like Serpent on Pole .

2 Corinthians 5:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[Colter]

Much of the Bible is human speculation and congecture. It’s not God that evolves in the scripture, it’s mans understanding of God. The Old Testament is the Hebrews writing about themselves and for an Israelite audiences. That’s why they are so heavily favored in the story while everyone else (their cousins) are dogs. In doing so they appropriated Mesopotamian lore and sort of made it their own heritage.

 

[Inkfingers]

Alredy explained it . When Jesus was dying he was not innocent but he took sin on himself and was made sin like Serpent on Pole .

2 Corinthians 5:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You really need to rethink the "Jesus...was not innocent" line.

 

[section9+1]

If you willingly sacrificed your live to save someone else's no one would say an injustice occurred. You would be hailed as a hero. If you gave up your life to save humanity, you would be the greatest hero of all. No one would cry about the injustice. Heroes receive posthumous acclaim all the time. No one complains because someone had to die to save others. Instead people are grateful and moved to honor the one who died to save. Death is not the greatest evil. Death can often be the greatest force for good if it is called to be. "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints." Death is in everyone's future. When it is accompanied by grace it has no sting. I think you are imposing your standards of right and wrong in a place where they have no bearing on anything that happened.

 

[Southernscotty]

I just got back, So I need to catch up but The whole of the Old Testament, every book, points toward the Great Sacrifice that was to come—that of Jesus’ sacrificial giving of His own life on our behalf. Leviticus 17:11 is the Old Testament’s central statement about the significance of blood in the sacrificial system. God, speaking to Moses, declares: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”

A “sacrifice” is defined as the offering up of something precious for a cause or a reason. Making atonement is satisfying someone or something for an offense committed. The Leviticus verse can be read more clearly now: God said, “I have given it to you (the creature’s life, which is in its blood) to make atonement for yourselves (covering the offense you have committed against Me).” In other words, those who are covered by the blood sacrifice are set free from the consequences of sin.

Of course, the Israelites did not know of Jesus per se, or how He would die on their behalf and then rise again, but they did believe God would be sending them a Savior. All of the many, many blood sacrifices seen throughout the Old Testament were foreshadowing the true, once-for-all-time sacrifice to come so that the Israelites would never forget that, without the blood, there is no forgiveness. This shedding of blood is a substitutionary act. Therefore, the last clause of Leviticus 17:11 could be read either “the blood ‘makes atonement’ at the cost of the life” (i.e., the animal’s life) or “makes atonement in the place of the life” (i.e., the sinner’s life, with Jesus Christ being the One giving life through His shed blood).

Hebrews 9:11-18 confirms the symbolism of blood as life and applies Leviticus 17:11 to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Verse 12 states clearly that the Old Testament blood sacrifices were temporary and only atoned for sin partially and for a short time, hence the need to repeat the sacrifices yearly. But when Christ entered the Most Holy Place, He did so to offer His own blood once for all time, making future sacrifices unnecessary. This is what Jesus meant by His dying words on the cross: “It is finished” (John 19:30). Never again would the blood of bulls and goats cleanse men from their sin. Only by accepting Jesus’ blood, shed on the cross for the remission of sins, can we stand before God covered in the righteousness of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).

 

[Chinchilla]

You really need to rethink the "Jesus...was not innocent" line.

Was Jesus made Sin ? Yes
Is sin Innocent ? No

You actually died with him .
Romans 6
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


If you believe Jesus was innocent while dying on cross tell me why did God forsake him on cross ?
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

He didn't say Father why you forsaken me but God .

 

[JojoM]

Or its further pointing out our depravity that we would happily accept, and even celebrate, that an innocent man would step forward and take our punishment.

Imagine you have a criminal before you who has done all manner of heinous things. He's about to be executed and another steps forward and says take me instead. The man then leaps for joy as the innocent is taken to the scaffold and the guilty is released. That is every Christian who ever leaps for joy at their salvation if Christ is a substitution sacrifice...

Makes you stop and think doesn't it:
1) on the character of the one celebrating
2) on the definition of Justice being applied by the judge

The thing is we only knew about Jesus’ sacrifice when it already happened. Before Jesus arrived, those who have faith such as Abraham have also already understood that God has decided since Adam sinned that He is going to redeem us through His own sacrifice. They didn’t know how or when but they knew God’s eternal redemption is going to happen.

The world is made in a way that we may understand God. Even we, ourselves, are made in His image. And because of that we have qualities that are like God’s. Like God, we have thoughts of justice and love.

If you’ve ever loved someone that you are willing to die for that person, that is called true love. And that’s what God has for mankind. That’s what He did for us even before we knew him.

And like many have already pointed out, (Leviticus 17:11)the life of the flesh is in the blood. The shedding of blood means the death of the flesh.

 

[Southernscotty]

Is this what you are asking????
“Why did God require a blood sacrifice for sin?” The Christian faith rests squarely and un-alterably on the fact that blood must be shed in order for God’s hot anger toward sinful humans to be appeased. Believers know this to be true. However, the question was not “Is a blood sacrifice required for sin?” We know the Bible states that the answer is unequivocally yes. However, the question was “Why blood?” Before the universe existed, “Why did God plan to have blood as the solution for mankind’s woeful and condemned condition?” Could not of God have come up with some other type of solution? The answer must be no; the only solution was a blood sacrifice (Hebrews 9:22). Here’s why. When Adam and Eve sinned the judgment was that their life would be taken from them. Once they sinned they were instantly dead. Yes, it would take years before they physically died, but spiritually they were instantly cut off from a right relationship with God. They died the moment they sinned. This is an important to meditate on. Sin took our life! For the wages of sin, the Bible says, is death (Romans 6:23). Sin is so awful and so defiant toward a holy God that the only and just action that He could take was to give the guilty sinner death! So what is the remedy? How can a person deserving of death ever get life? The only possible solution is that someone would need to give their life in the place of the guilty sinner. Someone would need to pay the judgment of death on behalf of the condemned sinner. But who would qualify? A sinner cannot pay with his life for the sin of another sinner; he must receive the death penalty for his own sin. The only person who would qualify to give His life on behalf of sinners was the perfect Son of God, Jesus. This now brings us to our question; “Why blood?” Could not Jesus have died simply by lethal injection, hanging, the electric chair, a shooting squad, or even stoning? Here is why I believe that God chose for Jesus to die the way He did. Blood is not only the symbol of life, it is life; it is what keeps a person alive. Blood is messy. Blood is respected and feared. Blood is not something that people take lightly. God wanted us to understand the severity and graveness of our sin and the cost of what it would take to redeem us (buy us back) from our sinful state. He wanted us to know that sin’s nature is so depraved that the only way to bring us back to a place of life was for Christ to suffer the most bloody, the most excruciating, the most graphic death we could think of so that we never lose sight of the wonder of the cross. Blood was in the mind of God as the perfect way to display the supreme cost and infinite value of our salvation!

 

[Ancient of Days]

Christ.
Now hush.

Yeah I said that about 20 posts ago... This thread is a circle jerk.

 

[Ancient of Days]

Is there a discernible reason behind requiring blood sacrifice to atone for sin?

We see it in the OT, with blood of all manner of animals being use as propitiation for sin, and in the NT with the idea of Jesus being a substitutional sacrifice on the cross, but....why? Is there are rational behind the use of blood which we can discern?

On the face of it, blood sacrifice looks pretty barbaric (especially when it uses the blood of an innocent to protect someone guilty - that is a strange definition of Justice at the very least) so I'm wondering if there is a rational behind the specific requirement for it that we can find in scripture...

And please, not "God said so" arguments. I'm not doubting what is written. I'm looking to understand the reasoning behind that choice of process.

Because God said so. That's why. If you don't like the way he does things why don't you just tell him instead of taking the forum members on a merry go round of infantile proportions. I didn't realize I was conversing with a 10 year old...

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That's...just...erm...

So not only are the priests encouraging injustice (telling people to sacrifice another creature for your own sin) they also use it as a way of getting cheap meat to eat.

Sounds like you want to accuse Gods people of evil even if you kill the same animals for your own dinner. That it makes no difference to the animals plays no role. You feel for the animals if they are offered for a sacrifice but not if you eat them. Two different standards. If for your benefit you have no problem. If for someone else’s dinner then it’s bad.

The real reason I gave is that sin is seriously bad. This you ignore.

 

[Chinchilla]

Because God said so. That's why. If you don't like the way he does things why don't you just tell him instead of taking the forum members on a merry go round of infantile proportions...

Actually that's true . If God exist then he makes moral judgements and the laws not us . If Jesus was enought for God as sacrifice then he is enought for us too .

 

[Ancient of Days]

Actually that's true . If God exist then he makes moral judgements and the laws not us . If Jesus was enought for God as sacrifice then he is enought for us too .

Amen!

 

[miamited]

So someone has decided to interpret scripture as Penal Substitution and rather than think about it, and about how it is patently injustice that says its fine for the innocent to be executed in the place of the guilty, you say "just believe" in Penal Substitution interpretation?

No. God did not give us reason for us to ignore it. It's how we are able to understand words and read scripture in the first place.

Hi inkfingers,

Well, you've completely misunderstood my post. I don't care whether you believe in penal substitution or not. I doubt that God cares whether you believe in penal substitution. What I'm saying is that in the specific and only case of Jesus dying for our sin, the just for the unjust, God's word says that that's the only way it can work.

You see, I don't think you've quite grasped God's purpose in creating this realm. The whole purpose for God creating this realm is that He wants to have the same kind of relationship with us that He has with the angelic realm. The Revelation tells us that a day is coming when God is going to judge all men and that those who have put their faith in Jesus, and thereby had their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life, will receive His promise of eternal life.

Now, I can't die for your sin because I have my own sin to atone for. Jesus is the only one who can give his life for sin and account it to someone else. This was always God's plan. The Scriptures say that the only way God can overlook or forgive sin is through the shedding of blood. But it must be innocent blood. Remember the qualifications for the lamb of the Passover. It had to be a spotless, perfect lamb. So, I can't die for someone else's sin. I have my own sin to die for. Only Jesus could be the spotless, perfect Lamb who could give his life as a ransom for others.

Now, is that fair in your understanding? No, and quite frankly it isn't fair in mine either and I agonize that Jesus had to suffer so for my sin. But it is the way that God has worked out that He can reach the ultimate goal of His creating this realm. In His sight it is fair, and since He's the judge, He gets to establish what's fair. Is it fair in human understanding? Of course not and you'll likely drive yourself crazy trying to make it be so. It isn't fair, but that's the whole point of God being merciful. He is giving us what we surely don't deserve through the blood of His Son.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[JojoM]

Do you ever think about what that means though? God requires us to be Just (it's in the Noahide code) but sacrificing an innocent for the benefit of the guilty is categorically unjust. Imagine today child abusers being let off the hook if someone came forward to be punished in their place.

Killing the innocent to protect the guilty is not justice.

It is the polar opposite of justice.

Even Peter did not understand that Jesus had to die. After Jesus told them that He will be killed,

Matthew 16 - 22. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

So no, it’s not like Jesus’ disciples happily looked at Jesus dying on the cross. It was a sorrowful day.

Also it’s not really like someone stood in court and judged guilty and then there’s an innocent man taking the punishment for the guilty person.

It is more like someone who sinned against another person. On his knees he genuinely admitted his sins and made reparations for the damages so that he will not be brought to the court and judged guilty.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. God dwelt with us so that He will make His blood the reparation for our sins. That way, we won’t need to be brought to the court and judged guilty. Instead those who have realised and admitted their sins will be shown this reparation and as a proof that we are free from our accuser forever, we have the seal of the Holy Spirit.

Suddenly a repenting person after much remorse realise what happened. He realised that Jesus shed His blood to redeem him and Jesus conquered death and rose again.

What should the redeemed person feel then? Not at all sadness but the joy of love and freedom.

 

[Inkfingers]

Even Peter did not understand that Jesus had to die. After Jesus told them that He will be killed,

Matthew 16 - 22. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

So no, it’s not like Jesus’ disciples happily looked at Jesus dying on the cross. It was a sorrowful day.

Also it’s not really like someone stood in court and judged guilty and then there’s an innocent man taking the punishment for the guilty person.

It is more like someone who sinned against another person. On his knees he genuinely admitted his sins and made reparations for the damages so that he will not be brought to the court and judged guilty.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. God dwelt with us so that He will make His blood the reparation for our sins. That way, we won’t need to be brought to the court and judged guilty. Instead those who have realised and admitted their sins will be shown this reparation and as a proof that we are free from our accuser forever, we have the seal of the Holy Spirit.

Suddenly a repenting person after much remorse realise what happened. He realised that Jesus shed His blood to redeem him and Jesus conquered death and rose again.

What should the redeemed person feel then? Not at all sadness but the joy of love and freedom.

I we celebrate that an innocent man goes to the cross because of our sin, it would make us a pretty vile specimen with a seared conscience...

 

[Sam91]

I we celebrate that an innocent man goes to the cross because of our sin, it would make us a pretty vile specimen with a seared conscience...

When you further consider that this man was also God and our creator that would make us worse.

However, we celebrate that we have been saved not the fact that He had to die for us. We celebrate that He had victory and is risen.

That fact that He suffered and died moves us and gives us remorse for our sins.

 

[JIMINZ]

I get that when its the guilty party, but when its the innocent sheep, or dove, or cow, or Christ, how then?





I work on the idea though that God gave us complex brains, as far as we know the most complex system in the known universe, to figure things out at a deeper level...hence wanting to understand what it is about blood that makes it the thing to use.

.
As soon as I read you OP my thoughts cane to Covenant, there is no Covenant except there be Blood Shed, then there is the knowledge, all things to be used for Gods use must be sprinkled with Blood.

Heb. 9:19,20
19) For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20) Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Lastly, (For now)

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

The Blood of an innocent victim having life in it, brings life to the situation.
But, the Blood of a lesser than a human, can only purify the flesh, it cannot bring life to it.

Heb. 9:13,14
13) For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:4-9
4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Heb. 13:20
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Rom. 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom. 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Is this to confusing?







The Blood of an innocent victo