Blind

[Michael]

Those are also the tools of choice for imagining things that don't exist.

Says who? Buddhists meditate too and most of them are atheists. Meditation is akin to mentally exercising your brain to learn to 'control' it better. You're confusing meditation with *imagination*.

So how do you determine if something is real or imagined?

We seem to already be covering that topic in the Naturalism thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7759763-64/#post63828389

 

[Loudmouth]

I did not say a different world, I said a different reality.

They are still in the same reality, not a different one.

The point is we make assumptions and those assumptions maybe right or wrong.

How do we determine if an assumption is right or wrong? If we believe that an assumption is true, and believe really, really hard, does it magically become true?

But all math and all of science is based on assumptions. This is why science can have what they call paradigm shifts.

Paradigm shifts in science are caused by the discovery of new evidence. For example, Mendel's discovery that genes are passed on as independent units caused a major paradigm shift in genetics. Einstein's discovery that light can act as both a wave and a particle was also a game changer. These are discovery of facts, not changes in assumptions.

The assumptions of science have been the same since the invention of the scientific method. You can read about the assumptions here:

Basic assumptions of science

This is what makes science such a powerful method. It relies on evidence instead of what we want to be true.

 

[Loudmouth]

Says who? Buddhists meditate too and most of them are atheists. Meditation is akin to mentally exercising your brain to learn to 'control' it better. You're confusing meditation with *imagination*.

It still begs the question of whether you are experiencing something real or something that is imagined.

 

[Loudmouth]

In the Bible we check everything against what Moses said because God gave Moses ALL of His plan of Salvation.

How did you determine that this gives you the correct answers?

While Science goes though constant change the Bible has not changed in 3700 years.

The Iliad has not changed either, but that doesn't mean it is true.

 

[Coelo]

How did you determine that this gives you the correct answers?

I am talking about grade school math here. Do you remember what your teacher taught you to check your answer to see if it was correct or not? This is very very simple. Perhaps your missing it because it is all so very simple that a fifth grader can do it. We should put you on that program on TV to see how well you do with the fifth graders.

The Iliad has not changed either, but that doesn't mean it is true.

The Bible is a collection of 66 books written by about 40 authors, in three different languages, on three different continents, over approximately 1600 years. If the Bible is NOT true then you have NOTHING to worry about. IF the Bible is true THEN you will be held accountable. It is your choice. You are the one taking the chance on the Bible NOT being true. Perhaps we all take a chance because few of us live the Bible to the degree we could or should.

Notice I am not telling you what the Bible says. It is up to you to figure that out for yourself. We do not need man to teach us. We have the Holy Spirit of God to guide us and to lead us into all truth. He is our teacher.

 

[Loudmouth]

I am talking about grade school math here.

I don't remember my math teacher telling me to check my answers against the Bible.

The Bible is a collection of 66 books written by about 40 authors, in three different languages, on three different continents, over approximately 1600 years.

If the Bible is NOT true then you have NOTHING to worry about. IF the Bible is true THEN you will be held accountable. It is your choice. You are the one taking the chance on the Bible NOT being true.

Pascal's Wager is a pretty poor argument:

Pascal's wager - RationalWiki

Notice I am not telling you want the Bible says. It is up to you to figure that out for yourself. We do not need man to teach us. We have the Holy Spirit of God to guide us and to lead us into all truth. He is our teacher.

How did you determine that God or the Holy Spirit is teaching you anything? What evidence do you have to support this claim?

 

[Coelo]

How do we determine if an assumption is right or wrong?

Do you mean the scientific method?

If we believe that an assumption is true, and believe really, really hard, does it magically become true?

When it comes to the theory of evolution it sure looks like that is they way they do it.

Paradigm shifts in science are caused by the discovery of new evidence.

That means Science is relative where the Bible is absolute truth. Yet the evidence in Science remains consistent. The Bible remains consistent and true, the physical evidence in Science remains consistent and true. But our opinions are in a constant state of change. Although you say new evidence comes along and that is the reason for the change in belief.

 

[Loudmouth]

Do you mean the scientific method?

We could use your carpenter example. If a carpenter wants to check the length of a board, what does the carpenter do? Does the carpenter pray about it until he believes it is the right size, or does the carpenter use empirical evidence to check it?

When it comes to the theory of evolution it sure looks like that is they way they do it.

Red herring.

If we believe that an assumption is true, and believe really, really hard, does it magically become true? To put it another way, is reality forced to conform to our beliefs?

That means Science is relative where the Bible is absolute truth.

No, it means that science is tentative while the Bible is dogmatic. Not changing is only a sign of stubborness, not correctness. You also have not presented any evidence that the claims in the Bible are truth.

Yet the evidence in Science remains consistent.

New evidence is always being discovered, and results from previous experiments are always being questioned and retested.

Although you say new evidence comes along and that is the reason for the change in belief.

Are you saying that if new evidence emerges that demonstrates you are wrong that you should just ignore it and still claim that you are right? Would you trust science more if it ignored new evidence and didn't change?

 

[Freodin]

I am talking about grade school math here. Do you remember what your teacher taught you to check your answer to see if it was correct or not? This is very very simple. Perhaps your missing it because it is all so very simple that a fifth grader can do it. We should put you on that program on TV to see how well you do with the fifth graders.

I remember my math lessons quite well... up to university.

Never was mentioned that the correct method to check your results is: look it up in a book.

 

[Coelo]

Pascal's Wager is a pretty poor argument

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wagerAccording to your link: "even though this cannot be proved or disproved through reason." That is not what I am saying. Reason AND Science tells us that the life God calls us to live is the best life to live. Not just the Christian faith any faith. People have better health and they live longer. They do not smoke or drink and all of that. I am not even promoting a belief in God. I just say to live the life that the Bible tells us to live. Of course we can not do that without God's help.

 

[Loudmouth]

That is not what I am saying. Reason AND Science tells us that the life God calls us to live is the best life to live.

Where did God do any calling? Last I checked, the Bible was written by men.

Not just the Christian faith any faith. People have better health and they live longer. They do not smoke or drink and all of that. I am not even promoting a belief in God. I just say to live the life that the Bible tells us to live. Of course we can not do that without God's help.

So without God we are forced to drink and smoke? Really? Have anything to back that up?

 

[Coelo]

Where did God do any calling? Last I checked, the Bible was written by men.

The Bible was written by men that were inspired by God. That is why the Bible has no error.

we are forced to

I am running out of time.

 

[BarryDesborough]

The Bible was written by men that were inspired by God.

Fallible men say that the Bible was written by men who were inspired by God.

Why do you believe them?

 

[Coelo]

Why do you believe them?

I believe God not man. I tried everything man has to offer. We have a covenant with God, if we do our part then you can be sure that God does His part.

 

[BarryDesborough]

I believe God not man. I tried everything man has to offer. We have a covenant with God, if we do our part then you can be sure that God does His part.

Why do you believe that scripture is the word of a god, rather than the word of men? Are you sure it is not merely that you want to believe it is? Why?

 

[Coelo]

Why do you believe that scripture is the word of a god, rather than the word of men?

I already answered that question. I tired everything man has to offer and none of it works. That is why they told me to try God. I had nothing to lose so I tried God. With man I have poverty and failure, with God I have prosperity and success.

 

[Loudmouth]

The Bible was written by men that were inspired by God.

Again, according to the writings of men.

That is why the Bible has no error.

So all I need to do is claim divine inspiration and everything I say from that point forward is true, no matter what?

 

[BarryDesborough]

I already answered that question. I tired everything man has to offer and none of it works. That is why they told me to try God. I had nothing to lose so I tried God. With man I have poverty and failure, with God I have prosperity and success.

Bully for you. Atheism has worked out pretty well for me. Individual anecdotal "evidence" has little value.

 

[Coelo]

Atheism has worked out pretty well for me.

Then we both have found something we are happy with.

 

[quatona]

I already answered that question. I tired everything man has to offer and none of it works. That is why they told me to try God. I had nothing to lose so I tried God. With man I have poverty and failure, with God I have prosperity and success.

I wouldn´t have guessed that you were a pragmatist.