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Blameless in the Law

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

  • Yes. Only Yahshua can follow the example that he called us to follow.

  • No. Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.


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bbbbbbb

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idk. Supposedly 'neither life can separates us from God' also 'i will give them eternal life' and 'none will perish', but on the other hand you have things like galatians with falling away things, if you fell is because you were standing before right??? i don't understand very well that scripture.
Peter addresses this problem in II Peter 2 -

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”


From my perspective, these false teachers were never believers (otherwise the Lord would have protected and rescued them like He did Noah and Lot from their errors), but were, by nature, dogs and sows - both detestable creatures. In time these creatures reveal their true natures.
 
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ladodgers6

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The difference is between pride and humility. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey law, and in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that mercy is one of the weightier matters of the law, so being a doer of the law is the way rely on God's sheer grace and mercy. It is contradictory to think that we should rely on God, but not rely on what He has instructed.
Exactly! This is precisely what Paul is talking about in Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. But why can't Abraham boast before God? Because no flesh will be justified through the Law because of sin. The Law brings knowledge of sin. And who on earth besides Christ is not charged with sinning under the Law? Not even Abraham himself could be justified through the Law and his works before God. Those seeking to establish their own righteousness, do not submit to God's righteousness. This is pride & self-deceit thinking they possess some goodness and holiness they can merit favor with God, placing God in owing them a debt. But this is foolish and futile thinking.

The convicted sinner like the tax collector knows he cannot provide anything to God because he is a wretched sinner. He's so ashamed that he is beating his chest, cannot look at God. And begs and humbles himself before God to have Mercy on such a sinner. He doesn't rely on his works, but on God's Mercy! Follow?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Explain Romans 7 where Paul himself struggle with sin.
Not a problem. Not once in the entire chapter does he even hint at the possibility of losing his salvation. In fact, at the end of the chapter he thanks God most heartily for Jesus Christ who is the One who delivers him from sin. In chapter 8 he assures the Romans of their salvation and makes it quite clear that God has predestined His children.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
 
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Soyeong

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Exactly! This is precisely what Paul is talking about in Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. But why can't Abraham boast before God? Because no flesh will be justified through the Law because of sin. The Law brings knowledge of sin. And who on earth besides Christ is not charged with sinning under the Law? Not even Abraham himself could be justified through the Law and his works before God. Those seeking to establish their own righteousness, do not submit to God's righteousness. This is pride & self-deceit thinking they possess some goodness and holiness they can merit favor with God, placing God in owing them a debt. But this is foolish and futile thinking.

The convicted sinner like the tax collector knows he cannot provide anything to God because he is a wretched sinner. He's so ashamed that he is beating his chest, cannot look at God. And begs and humbles himself before God to have Mercy on such a sinner. He doesn't rely on his works, but on God's Mercy! Follow?
Works can be done for any number of reasons other than to earn a wage or to give us something to boast about, such as when Abraham was justified by his works done in faith (James 2:21-24). We would not earn our justification as a wage even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), so sin has nothing to do with why we won't earn our justification by obeying it. No one can earn their justification by obeying God's law because it was never given as a means of doing that. That was never the reason why God gave the law. I don't know how else to get this point through to you. Obeying God's law has always been testifying about God's righteousness, never about establishing our own. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so relying on God's law is relying on God, not on ourselves.
 
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ladodgers6

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Not a problem. Not once in the entire chapter does he even hint at the possibility of losing his salvation. In fact, at the end of the chapter he thanks God most heartily for Jesus Christ who is the One who delivers him from sin. In chapter 8 he assures the Romans of their salvation and makes it quite clear that God has predestined His children.
Can you expand on these comments? Your earlier comments stated a sheep becoming a goat, correct? This is why I brought up Paul, as believers will continue to struggle with sin until we receive our glorified bodies. The flesh and the Spirit are in a raging war as you can see with Paul account in Romans 7.

15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Notice the power of sin in our flesh. Which is why it's only by Grace Alone that can save us.

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
I love the golden chain of salvation. I also love this passages.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.​

In Christ through Faith by the Holy Spirit we persevere and walk according to the Spirit, always giving thanks and praise to God who rescued us from this body of death!
 
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ladodgers6

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Works can be done for any number of reasons other than to earn a wage or to give us something to boast about, such as when Abraham was justified by his works done in faith (James 2:21-24). We would not earn our justification as a wage even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), so sin has nothing to do with why we won't earn our justification by obeying it. No one can earn their justification by obeying God's law because it was never given as a means of doing that. That was never the reason why God gave the law. I don't know how else to get this point through to you. Obeying God's law has always been testifying about God's righteousness, never about establishing our own. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so relying on God's law is relying on God, not on ourselves.
Okay which works brings justification for a sinner?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Can you expand on these comments? Your earlier comments stated a sheep becoming a goat, correct? This is why I brought up Paul, as believers will continue to struggle with sin until we receive our glorified bodies. The flesh and the Spirit are in a raging war as you can see with Paul account in Romans 7.

15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Notice the power of sin in our flesh. Which is why it's only by Grace Alone that can save us.


I love the golden chain of salvation. I also love this passages.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.​

In Christ through Faith by the Holy Spirit we persevere and walk according to the Spirit, always giving thanks and praise to God who rescued us from this body of death!
I really think we are in agreement on this issue. I used the sheep/goat paradigm to illustrate the dilemma posed by those who believe that a Christian can, by various means, cease to be a Christian. I think we agree that, even in the midst of the battle against sin, the grace of God is more than sufficient to grant victory through Jesus Christ.
 
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ladodgers6

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I really think we are in agreement on this issue. I used the sheep/goat paradigm to illustrate the dilemma posed by those who believe that a Christian can, by various means, cease to be a Christian. I think we agree that, even in the midst of the battle against sin, the grace of God is more than sufficient to grant victory through Jesus Christ.
Amen well said. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith!
 
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ladodgers6

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The ones done through faith in God.
So, no mention of Christ and merits? It's what I do that merits God's debt. It is not a free gift, but my works through Faith that justify. Even though Paul says in Romans, 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works
Your thoughts?
 
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Strong in Him

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The only work that saves, and justifies, is the work of Christ on the cross - his offering his life as a sacrifice for our sin.

Otherwise, those who accepted Christ on their death beds, on death row or when seriously ill or disabled would never be saved.
 
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ladodgers6

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The only work that saves, and justifies, is the work of Christ on the cross - his offering his life as a sacrifice for our sin.

Otherwise, those who accepted Christ on their death beds, on death row or when seriously ill or disabled would never be saved.
And the imputed Righteousness of Christ. Through the Gospel God gives freely the righteousness of Christ received through Faith Alone! And it's by this righteousness given to us that God can be the Just and the Justifier of the ungodly!
 
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Soyeong

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So, no mention of Christ and merits? It's what I do that merits God's debt. It is not a free gift, but my works through Faith that justify. Even though Paul says in Romans, 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works
Your thoughts?
Christ is God and experiencing the works that we do through faith in him is the free gift. Romans 4 speaks against earning our justification as a wage, which I completely agree with. Can you recognize that works can be done for reasons apart from trying to earn our justification as a wage, such as faith?
 
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ladodgers6

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Christ is God and experiencing the works that we do through faith in him is the free gift. Romans 4 speaks against earning our justification as a wage, which I completely agree with. Can you recognize that works can be done for reasons apart from trying to earn our justification as a wage, such as faith?
Paul is making a juxtaposition between works and faith. You stated before that works through faith is what justifies a sinner, yes?
 
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Soyeong

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Paul is making a juxtaposition between works and faith. You stated before that works through faith is what justifies a sinner, yes?
In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith upholds God’s law, so he was contrasting works done through faith with works done in order to earn a wage. For instance, all of the examples of works listed in Hebrews 11 are examples of justifying faith apart from earning a wage.
 
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Strong in Him

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In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith upholds God’s law, so he was contrasting works done through faith with works done in order to earn a wage. For instance, all of the examples of works listed in Hebrews 11 are examples of justifying faith apart from earning a wage.
Are you saying that if a Christian believes that God wants them to be, say, a doctor, they work hard and do that job for the Lord, it somehow doesn't count because they get paid for it?
Paul worked as a tentmaker so as not to be a financial burden to his churches - was that work "less valid" than his preaching ministry because he got paid?
Can't a Christian do their paid job through faith?
 
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ladodgers6

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In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith upholds God’s law, so he was contrasting works done through faith with works done in order to earn a wage. For instance, all of the examples of works listed in Hebrews 11 are examples of justifying faith apart from earning a wage.
Soyeong, read it in context.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.​
 
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ladodgers6

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In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith upholds God’s law, so he was contrasting works done through faith with works done in order to earn a wage. For instance, all of the examples of works listed in Hebrews 11 are examples of justifying faith apart from earning a wage.
Again sir, you are pitting scripture against scripture, because verse 28 which precedes verse 31 is clear. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Can you explain what Paul means?​
 
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Soyeong

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Again sir, you are pitting scripture against scripture, because verse 28 which precedes verse 31 is clear. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Can you explain what Paul means?​
To become righteous means to become someone who practices righteous, so you should not interpret Romans 3:28 as saying that we become righteous apart from becoming someone who practices righteousness because that would be contradictory. Rather, we become righteous by faith apart from having done any works that result in becoming righteous. God’s law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to result in becoming righteous. For example, God’s law reveals that it is righteous to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the one and only way to become righteous is through faith, through becoming a helper of the poor is part of what it means to become righteous.
 
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