Blah! Confounded NIV!

[Lotuspetal_uk]

In a virtual sense I'm about ready to chuck my NIV Bible. It's great for me to quickly find a verse but any deeper considerations is getting frustrating.

But before I do, could anyone help me with the more accurate translation of Bereshit 1:30 and 2:7. Specifically the term "breath of life". The Jewish Virtual Library has it as "living soul" for Bereshit 1:30 and "breath of life" for 2:7. My NIV Bible has it as "breath of life" in both verses.

I did a quick search earlier and came across this Q&A website - would you agree with their break-down as to why this appears to be inaccurately translated as "breath of life"?

Many many thanks in advance for any help offered.

 

[Qnts2]

In a virtual sense I'm about ready to chuck my NIV Bible. It's great for me to quickly find a verse but any deeper considerations is getting frustrating.

But before I do, could anyone help me with the more accurate translation of Bereshit 1:30 and 2:7. Specifically the term "breath of life". The Jewish Virtual Library has it as "living soul" for Bereshit 1:30 and "breath of life" for 2:7. My NIV Bible has it as "breath of life" in both verses.

I did a quick search earlier and came across this Q&A website - would you agree with their break-down as to why this appears to be inaccurately translated as "breath of life"?

Many many thanks in advance for any help offered.

I haven't looked at the Q&A.

NIV, In Genesis (Bereshit) 2:7-

7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Clearly God breathed into the nostrils of Adam, giving the 'breath of life', making Adam a living soul.

Living soul (being from NIV), broken down nephesh (soul) Chai(ah) (living).

Bereshit 1:30 also uses the term Nephesh Chai(ah), which would mean living soul. So, living soul is the literal translation. However, a living soul is one who still has the breath of life, or a person who is still breathing.

In Psalms 150:6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD!

So it is not uncommon to see that having breath is often used to mean living or living soul.

My view is NIV is not a literal translation, but their use of breath of life in place of living soul is reasonably equivalent to the intended meaning referencing something which is alive.

 

[Avodat]

In a virtual sense I'm about ready to chuck my NIV Bible. It's great for me to quickly find a verse but any deeper considerations is getting frustrating.

But before I do, could anyone help me with the more accurate translation of Bereshit 1:30 and 2:7. Specifically the term "breath of life". The Jewish Virtual Library has it as "living soul" for Bereshit 1:30 and "breath of life" for 2:7. My NIV Bible has it as "breath of life" in both verses.

I did a quick search earlier and came across this Q&A website - would you agree with their break-down as to why this appears to be inaccurately translated as "breath of life"?

Many many thanks in advance for any help offered.

I have the CJB (David Stern) and the NIV all in one book. The CJB has, in 1:30, 'living soul' and in 2:7 'breath of life'. Buy a copy of the two together - the columns match each other perfectly and you can see line by line any variations!

 

[ananda]

I see how נפש חיה could mean both "living soul" and "breath of life". This is one of the shortfalls of translation; there is inevitably something lost in the process of translation. There is a depth and multiplicity of meaning in every Hebrew word, and it would be virtually impossible to encapsulate every meaning of a Hebrew word in a single, equivalent English word.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

I haven't looked at the Q&A.

NIV, In Genesis (Bereshit) 2:7-

7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Clearly God breathed into the nostrils of Adam, giving the 'breath of life', making Adam a living soul.

Living soul (being from NIV), broken down nephesh (soul) Chai(ah) (living).

Bereshit 1:30 also uses the term Nephesh Chai(ah), which would mean living soul. So, living soul is the literal translation. However, a living soul is one who still has the breath of life, or a person who is still breathing.

In Psalms 150:6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD!

So it is not uncommon to see that having breath is often used to mean living or living soul.

My view is NIV is not a literal translation, but their use of breath of life in place of living soul is reasonably equivalent to the intended meaning referencing something which is alive.

This is why I love this section of CF. Thank you for this!

Yeah, my paper version of the NIV say that they lean towards contextual rather than literal so this now makes sense.

Thank you again.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

I have the CJB (David Stern) and the NIV all in one book. The CJB has, in 1:30, 'living soul' and in 2:7 'breath of life'. Buy a copy of the two together - the columns match each other perfectly and you can see line by line any variations!

Amen. I've got the two versions separate and tend to grab the CJB after finding an obscure verse in the NIV. I then end up going on a cookie trail when I see a difference starting with my KJV, its concordance, then I go online.

It's when my poor baby protests by throwing one of his toys at me (he may be a good bowler in 20 years times) that I mutter "Oy Vei" and pose it here.

I could do with having the two together though.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

I see how נפש חיה could mean both "living soul" and "breath of life". This is one of the shortfalls of translation; there is inevitably something lost in the process of translation. There is a depth and multiplicity of meaning in every Hebrew word, and it would be virtually impossible to encapsulate every meaning of a Hebrew word in a single, equivalent English word.

Very very true. My ex-hubby use to comment about how the Qu'ran would leave some words in Arabic for the sheer fact that it would be difficult to capture the depth of its meaning in another language.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

Guys, I just wanted to thank you all again for your help with this!

 

[yonah_mishael]

deleted

 

[yonah_mishael]

deleted

 

[yonah_mishael]

In a virtual sense I'm about ready to chuck my NIV Bible. It's great for me to quickly find a verse but any deeper considerations is getting frustrating.

But before I do, could anyone help me with the more accurate translation of Bereshit 1:30 and 2:7. Specifically the term "breath of life". The Jewish Virtual Library has it as "living soul" for Bereshit 1:30 and "breath of life" for 2:7. My NIV Bible has it as "breath of life" in both verses.

I did a quick search earlier and came across this Q&A website - would you agree with their break-down as to why this appears to be inaccurately translated as "breath of life"?

Many many thanks in advance for any help offered.

Wow! It's helpful to post the verses out so that we can look at them in comparison... That saves so much confusion.

Genesis 1:30 (NIV)
And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life (נפש חי&#1492 in it—I give every green plant for food. ” And it was so.

Genesis 2:7 (NIV)
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (נשמת חיי&#1501, and the man became a living being (נפש חי&#1492.

The two phrases translated "breath of life" in these verses are different phrases in Hebrew. In the first, it is nefesh chayah, which is the phrase translated "a living being" in Genesis 2:7. In the second, "the breath of life" is a translation of nishmat chayim.

This is due to the ambiguity in the Hebrew words neshamah (נשמ&#1492 and nefesh (נפ&#1513, which are both used for the idea of breath and spirit. It's really, to be honest, not the NIV that is being confusing here but the Hebrew text itself! There is confusion between the terms in the Hebrew Bible, and they are not being used consistently. (Some might attribute this to the text having come from different sources, which understood the phrases differently.)

Chapter 1 is using nefesh chayah as the breath of life that is inside all living things. Chapter 2 is using the same phrase to mean the creature itself that has life in it. The Hebrew terms are used in two different ways, which is why the NIV translated it (correctly) differently in each verse.

Don't throw out the NIV without justification. There are some verses that I think the translated badly on purpose (to justify their theological positions), but overall I cannot but concede that the NIV is a very good translation.

P.S. By the way, why didn't this appear in the Classical Hebrew forum instead?

 

[Lulav]

I thought Neshama meant 'soul'

 

[yonah_mishael]

I thought Neshama meant 'soul'

Especially with these words, there is no one-to-one correspondence between English and Hebrew. It is related to the word נָשַׁם nasham, meaning "breathe." Interestingly, like English, Hebrew has distinct terms for "inhale" (שָׁאַף sha'af) and "exhale" (נָשַׁף nashaf). The word "breathing" is נְשִׁימָה neshima and "breath" is נְשָׁמָה neshama.

It takes on the meaning of "soul" in that we imagine that the breath that a person carries with him in his body provides him with life, and when that breath is gone, he is dead. It was only later that this was infused with the notion of conscience that survives death; this wasn't part of the biblical meaning of "soul."

 

[visionary]

I know of no conscience beyond death.. as there is no thought beyond death.

ECCLESIASTES 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

as David sang to God..

PSALM 6:5 No one remembers You when he is dead. Who praises You from the grave?

PSALM 146:3 Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I know of no conscience beyond death.. as there is no thought beyond death.

ECCLESIASTES 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

as David sang to God..

PSALM 6:5 No one remembers You when he is dead. Who praises You from the grave?

PSALM 146:3 Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Do you believe in life after death? Soul sleep? Annihilation of the soul? Resurrection of the flesh? If you do not believe in the soul's surviving death, what is it that you do believe?

 

[visionary]

Do you believe in life after death? Soul sleep? Annihilation of the soul? Resurrection of the flesh? If you do not believe in the soul's surviving death, what is it that you do believe?

I believe in the resurrection, that is why Yeshua life and death and resurrection is so important. He now holds the keys to life and death.

 

[Marie Lynn]

I believe in the resurrection, that is why Yeshua life and death and resurrection is so important. He now holds the keys to life and death.

Just curious, what exactly will be resurrected if not a body containing a consciousness of some sort? How might thought be excluded from this process since the resurrection according to Christianity will involve judgement, life for those who believe and obey, and damnation for the rest.
What does it mean to have the keys to life and death if a person has no conscious thought as to who they were or how they governed their lives?

 

[visionary]

Just curious, what exactly will be resurrected if not a body containing a consciousness of some sort? How might thought be excluded from this process since the resurrection according to Christianity will involve judgement, life for those who believe and obey, and damnation for the rest.
What does it mean to have the keys to life and death if a person has no conscious thought as to who they were or how they governed their lives?

I agree,, the resurrection is all about the resurrection of the body with a conscience.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

Wow! It's helpful to post the verses out so that we can look at them in comparison... That saves so much confusion.

Apologies. Right now, I am restricted most days by an impatient 12 month old who has a good and accurate bowling throw with toys. Purely time saving on my part.

Genesis 1:30 (NIV)
And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life (נפש חי&#1492 in it—I give every green plant for food. ” And it was so.

Genesis 2:7 (NIV)
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (נשמת חיי&#1501, and the man became a living being (נפש חי&#1492.

The two phrases translated "breath of life" in these verses are different phrases in Hebrew. In the first, it is nefesh chayah, which is the phrase translated "a living being" in Genesis 2:7. In the second, "the breath of life" is a translation of nishmat chayim.

This is due to the ambiguity in the Hebrew words neshamah (נשמ&#1492 and nefesh (נפ&#1513, which are both used for the idea of breath and spirit. It's really, to be honest, not the NIV that is being confusing here but the Hebrew text itself! There is confusion between the terms in the Hebrew Bible, and they are not being used consistently. (Some might attribute this to the text having come from different sources, which understood the phrases differently.)

Chapter 1 is using nefesh chayah as the breath of life that is inside all living things. Chapter 2 is using the same phrase to mean the creature itself that has life in it. The Hebrew terms are used in two different ways, which is why the NIV translated it (correctly) differently in each verse.

Don't throw out the NIV without justification. There are some verses that I think the translated badly on purpose (to justify their theological positions), but overall I cannot but concede that the NIV is a very good translation.

This is very helpful. Thank you so much for this!

P.S. By the way, why didn't this appear in the Classical Hebrew forum instead?

I've just had a look at the Classical Hebrew section and agree that the bulk of my questions would be suited there. Thank you again Yonah.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In a virtual sense I'm about ready to chuck my NIV Bible. It's great for me to quickly find a verse but any deeper considerations is getting frustrating.

It's rather amazing seeing how the newer ones actually leave out A LOT of things that are key in translation..and one of the reasons many are not wanting to buy NIVs anymore.