"Black Lives Matter"

[gzt]

These are all issues that are relevant, and there are structural issues that make it hard to get out of that sort of situation, and these are all the sorts of things that people want to discuss when they say that black lives matter. What we can't do is just say, well, stop having kids out of wedlock, stop having abortions, and stop getting into "gangsta culture" and then we'll talk to you guys, then we'll believe that black lives matter. In the meantime, we would continue with mass incarceration (for, say, drug offenses, when evidence suggests equal use between black and white but very unequal enforcement), unequal access to health care, housing, and education, etc. Some of these issues are conflated with the issue of poverty, some are generational issues (if your parents are poorly educated, guess what this suggests about your education), some are purely issues of systemic racism. We can't use what we say are "the problems" with the black community as reasons not to listen to what they say about what is wrong in their community and in their relationship with the whole of society. If you really think that the things you're talking about above are major problems, then don't we all need to get on board to start addressing them?

As an aside directly about the issue of single parents and abortion: one thing I've noticed is that the rate of abortion as a result of unplanned pregnancy varies based on socioeconomic status. In fact, it is the higher socioeconomic statuses that have a higher rate of abortion. However, they have a much lower rate of unplanned pregnancy, even though they get married much later and as a population are having just as much sex. This suggests to me that a major issue is contraceptive access, and that a fast way to drastically reduce the incidence of both abortion and single parenthood is to make contraception readily available to all people.

 

[Dorothea]

I agree that talks go nowhere with that approach, gzt. We really do need REAL talks on racial issues in this country. One where there are serious discussions about this and compassion and understanding is at the center, and this is not just for African Americans, but for Native Americans and Latinos as well. I don't think our country has ever really gotten a community together to sit down and really discuss our terrible history that continues on in one way or another (incarceration is one example) and hash out the issues and really try and find solutions that are doable and are fair. I think a truth and reconciliation committee that Dr. Jill Stein talks about, is a good idea.

With regards to the socioeconomic issues....the divide of the haves and have nots continues to grow, and this will only get worse unless something in our oligarchal system radically changes. Just my opinions here.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

These are all issues that are relevant, and there are structural issues that make it hard to get out of that sort of situation, and these are all the sorts of things that people want to discuss when they say that black lives matter. What we can't do is just say, well, stop having kids out of wedlock, stop having abortions, and stop getting into "gangsta culture" and then we'll talk to you guys, then we'll believe that black lives matter. In the meantime, we would continue with mass incarceration (for, say, drug offenses, when evidence suggests equal use between black and white but very unequal enforcement), unequal access to health care, housing, and education, etc. Some of these issues are conflated with the issue of poverty, some are generational issues (if your parents are poorly educated, guess what this suggests about your education), some are purely issues of systemic racism. We can't use what we say are "the problems" with the black community as reasons not to listen to what they say about what is wrong in their community and in their relationship with the whole of society. If you really think that the things you're talking about above are major problems, then don't we all need to get on board to start addressing them?

As an aside directly about the issue of single parents and abortion: one thing I've noticed is that the rate of abortion as a result of unplanned pregnancy varies based on socioeconomic status. In fact, it is the higher socioeconomic statuses that have a higher rate of abortion. However, they have a much lower rate of unplanned pregnancy, even though they get married much later and as a population are having just as much sex. This suggests to me that a major issue is contraceptive access, and that a fast way to drastically reduce the incidence of both abortion and single parenthood is to make contraception readily available to all people.

Though frequently touted as a solution, there is little evidence that increased availability of contraception would reduce single motherhood amongst African Americans. Divorce rates for blacks are higher than amongst other ethnic groups, so a lot of people are having babies they want, but then not staying together. Also, disproportionally high incarceration of black men leaves black mothers single, a problem more contraception would not correct.

I agree it is complex. I would resolve part of the incarceration problem by decriminalising most drugs.

But culturally, blacks still accept single motherhood as a legitimate family structure much more than other ethnic groups. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_structure

That cultural attitude must change.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Have you ever lived in a city with a large black population? Perhaps you might like to talk to some people who have, I know there are some people at your seminary who have.

yes I have. I also spent time working at the Emmaus House in Harlem, and living with those who work and live there. all of whom were ex convicts that the House tries to get back on their feet. many of whom were African American. my issue with BLM is the movement from what I personally have seen. until I see them protesting abortion clinics, marching for black cops who are killed in the street, or holding rallies to stop black on black crime. maybe I am wrong, but that is not what I have seen.

 

[gzt]

Well, Matt, I simply think you're wrong, but at least we have a principled disagreement.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I couldn't help it. This busted me up! I'm a child of the 80's. What can I say!? LOL

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Which part is he wrong about?

Well, Matt, I simply think you're wrong, but at least we have a principled disagreement.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, Matt, I simply think you're wrong, but at least we have a principled disagreement.

if you can show any evidence of the BLM movement holding rallies and protests en masse that don't involve a white man shooting a black man, I would love to see it. I am not claiming to be right, only pointing out what I have seen.

 

[gzt]

I think you're wrong to have those as your criteria.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

I think you're wrong to have those as your criteria.

Right everyone wrong, and your right

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Bureau of Land Management holds rallies?

if you can show any evidence of the BLM movement holding rallies and protests en masse that don't involve a white man shooting a black man, I would love to see it. I am not claiming to be right, only pointing out what I have seen.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think you're wrong to have those as your criteria.

well, I gathered that which is fine. and I don't think I am wrong. but for me to see the error of my thinking, you have to show me why I am wrong, not simply repeating that I am wrong.

 

[gzt]

well, I gathered that which is fine. and I don't think I am wrong. but for me to see the error of my thinking, you have to show me why I am wrong, not simply repeating that I am wrong.

I've talked a fair bit about my thoughts, you've talked a fair bit about your thoughts, the two sets don't agree, what more is there to say? I suppose I could add that my experiences differ (though I certainly haven't seen them protest outside abortion providers, but I wouldn't demand that they do, it does fat little good anyway).

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

The Bureau of Land Management holds rallies?

Wait there shootings at the Bureau of Labor Management rallies?

 

[gzt]

BLM would be land management - thank God the Bundys and their nutters didn't ever open fire.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

BLM would be land management - thank God the Bundys and their nutters didn't ever open fire.

Al Bundy? Are the nutters No MA'AM

 

[ArmyMatt]

I suppose I could add that my experiences differ (though I certainly haven't seen them protest outside abortion providers, but I wouldn't demand that they do, it does fat little good anyway).

well yeah. if you can show me the BLM protesting en masse whenever black lives are marginalized, it would at least give me something to think about. twas why I added black on black crime, or black police officers getting shot.

 

[gzt]

well yeah. if you can show me the BLM protesting en masse whenever black lives are marginalized, it would at least give me something to think about. twas why I added black on black crime, or black police officers getting shot.

Generally, whenever I've seen an activist asked about crime in their community, the general response is, "For crying out loud, you really think we're not concerned about this?!" I mean, their activism is about reaching out to us, the majority, not internal to their community, you know?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Better Al Bundy than Ted! Lol

Al Bundy? Are the nutters No MA'AM

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

Better Al Bundy than Ted! Lol

Lol at least their a greater chance to leave in one piece