Birth control.

[Irenaeus]

Or how about, for the sake of everybody's soul, not just yours, and for the sake of sanity and blood pressure, you just make the marriage work? How on earth can there be sin in that?

One can't do evil that good may come of it. No matter what that evil is, and no matter what good is intended as a result.

You are no way close to being on this page with me, are you? You really think divorce in Catholicism is an option? And you think it is an option over one spouse realizing the limitations of the other and meeting them where they are at and making a marriage work?

I think divorce with a non-Sacramental marriage is an option. Look up the Pauline and Petrine privledges. That is Catholic teaching. Read Paul's words on the subject.

Is Saint Paul being unpastoral? Was his point of view an emotional disorder?

Of course I would prefer that they try to work it out in a non-sacramental marriage. But if they can't, they may part. This is Scriptural, not just my own two cents.

 

[MikeK]

But then, I ask you: did St. Paul know this when he counselled the exact same thing to the Corinthian believers, several of whom undoubtedly were in the same situation?

Did St Paul know the effects of divorce on children? Quite likely not, at least not in the quantifiable, predictable way we do today.

 

[Irenaeus]

What you're suggesting will harm the children. Neither parent is unfit. To divorce for the sake of one's own soul seems selfish. Maybe instead of asking the parents to sperate, we could ask God to bend a bit for them? Maybe loosen up the requirements a bit so that they aren't choosing between damnation and raising their children in a two parent home?

Mike, please look back on my question on what St. Paul said. Was Saint Paul being unpastoral or not? Presumably Christians in the 1st century married to pagans were having children, and this was also a problem back then. What did he say, and since he did say it, what priority did Paul place on the immortal soul?

 

[Irenaeus]

Did St Paul know the effects of divorce on children? Quite likely not, at least not in the quantifiable, predictable way we do today.

So what, Mike? Are you going to argue with Scripture? Divorce of any stripe is not preferable, but in this circumstance with a non-Christian and a Christian, if it must be done, let it be done amiably as far as that is possible.

 

[benedictaoo]

I am. I'm not saying this is going to be easy on everyone. There is going to be hurt and upset. The parents would have to do the best they can to dissolve any tension, and to make sure the kids would see both of them as much as they can.

But then, I ask you: did St. Paul know this when he counselled the exact same thing to the Corinthian believers, several of whom undoubtedly were in the same situation?



Hell is terrible for a reason. But hell is not the only reason for avoiding sin. That is basic Catholic theology. It is also part of the Catholic tradition that the bars of hell are locked from the inside.

Catholics do not get divorced Ireneaus. We do have the option to stay with the unbeliever. So, if so, don't we have the option to making it work by comprehending the other person can not give what they just do not have to give, which in this case would be compliance with the Church's teaching on contraception?

Didn't I speak on the good of marriage lope hole?

And what Mike was talking about in his masturbation post was at what point do we realize in our quest to be the righteous Catholic, we cause a whole lot more sin on the other person? If they aren't with us, they will do all kind of other things and that will end in divorce over time which, I am sorry can't be good sin wise for anyone.

and we know all this.. humans are human and can only do what we can do. Paul says we don't do the good we want but instead, do the bad we don't want. We do everyone here a disservice when we log on here and posture ourselves as if we are some Saint in the making.

 

[benedictaoo]

So what, Mike? Are you going to argue with Scripture? Divorce of any stripe is not preferable, but in this circumstance with a non-Christian and a Christian, if it must be done, let it be done amiably as far as that is possible.

?? huh? Since when we taught that?

 

[MikeK]

Mike, please look back on my question on what St. Paul said. Was Saint Paul being unpastoral or not? Presumably Christians in the 1st century married to pagans were having children, and this was also a problem back then. What did he say, and since he did say it, what priority did Paul place on the immortal soul?

What priority did he place on the souls of the children - the children who in this case would be observing that, in essence, they will be bouncing between homes and their content, traditional home life shattered because God says Mom and Dad can't use condoms or they'll burn in hell. What are the odds that the children will grow to have any use for that God?

 

[Irenaeus]

Catholics do not get divorced Ireneaus. We do have the option to stay with the unbeliever.

They have an option to stay. They do not have to if there is good reason.

So, if so, don't we have the option to making it work by comprehending the other person can not give what they just do not have to give, which in this case would be compliance with the Church's teaching on contraception?

We can understand that they can't give something, but if they are trying to coerce us into doing something that we know is wrong, we cannot, and must not, comply. It doesn't matter if it's family, friends...or spouse.

Didn't I speak on the good of marriage lope hole?

The marriage loophole? No.

And what Mike was talking about in his masturbation post was at what point do we realize in our quest to be the righteous Catholic, we cause a whole lot more sin on the other person? If they aren't with us, they will do all kind of other things and that will end in divorce over time which, I am sorry can't be good sin wise for anyone.

Are you equivocating sin and psychological duress? They are not the same thing.

and we know all this.. humans are human and can only do what we can do. Paul says we don't do the good we want but instead, do the bad we don't want. We do everyone here a disservice when we log on here and posture ourselves as if we are some Saint in the making.

Paul says we do wrong, that is true. No one here is denying that. But that does not mean we counsel people to do wrong. That is the difference.

?? huh? Since when we taught that?

Centuries. Could you please hop on Google and look up the Petrine and Pauline privledges, or at least look at this...

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7272

 

[Irenaeus]

What priority did he place on the souls of the children - the children who in this case would be observing that, in essence, they will be bouncing between homes and their content, traditional home life shattered because God says Mom and Dad can't use condoms or they'll burn in hell. What are the odds that the children will grow to have any use for that God?

Mike, divorce is not the complete end for children. Even proponents of divorce constantly tell us it is better for children ultimately that they have peace between their parents than that they fight.

But the fact remains, what Paul said is Scripture. If there is a problem here, it is with Divine Revelation.

 

[MikeK]

So what, Mike? Are you going to argue with Scripture? Divorce of any stripe is not preferable, but in this circumstance with a non-Christian and a Christian, if it must be done, let it be done amiably as far as that is possible.

The only reason that it must be done is because God is threatening to send one of the persons - not the non-believer and not the children - to hell if they do not obey Him. We trust the non-believer's soul to God, perhaps he or she was invincibly ignorant. The faithful Catholic who consents to sin so that her children can be raised with their father in the home? That's a damning. That mother is a special kind of martyr, I figure. Most martyrs only give this finite life, the mother in this case is risking eternal damnation for the good of her children.

 

[MikeK]

These conversations are important, but not easy. At the end of the day, God starts to look like a monster....that or maybe we've been wrong about Him. It will be interesting to watch the related doctrines as they continue to develop.

 

[benedictaoo]

One can't do evil that good may come of it. No matter what that evil is, and no matter what good is intended as a result.

You are so legalistic, wow. No. Loving a person and having a loving marriage is not doing evil. what's evil is leaving a person who loves you but does not share the same beliefs as you. That is what is evil.

I think divorce with a non-Sacramental marriage is an option. Look up the Pauline and Petrine privledges. That is Catholic teaching. Read Paul's words on the subject.

Sorry. While that may apply in some cases where, I dunno, one spouse refuses the other to practice their faith and locks them in a closet so they can't go to Mass. I think it's, excuse me but bull to think you can leave them because they do not believe as you do. There is a bigger picture here and you are missing it.

Is Saint Paul being unpastoral? Was his point of view an emotional disorder?

FYI- some folks turn to Catholicism out of a unfulfilled emotional need and will be sticklers out of that emotional need and not out of a true calling.

Of course I would prefer that they try to work it out in a non-sacramental marriage. But if they can't, they may part. This is Scriptural, not just my own two cents.

and I have my personal suspicions about non sacramental marriages.

 

[benedictaoo]

We can understand that they can't give something, but if they are trying to coerce us into doing something that we know is wrong, we cannot, and must not, comply. It doesn't matter if it's family, friends...or spouse.

Bingo brother. But yet so many others have lope holes. So how freakin' is it that we can't comply for the sake of our own marriage?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

The reality that the Church needs to accept, and I think it has, is that not everyone is capable of supporting half a dozen or more children, especially considering the economic times we live in. Yes, of course, it's wonderful when you bring new life into the world, we get it. But on the other hand, what's the point of cranking out babies if you simply haven't the money to take care of them? What kind of life are you going to be giving them as they grow up?

Matthew 6:25-34

 

[Gwendolyn]

Maybe this is the reason some saints say that most people go to hell. Most people just can't live up to God's demands even if they desperately want to.

 

[benedictaoo]

so what the heck Gwen? We do go to hell anyway when we tried our very best? When we have given ourselves a nervous breakdown trying to do what is right in a world where everybody does what is wrong?

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Maybe this is the reason some saints say that most people go to hell. Most people just can't live up to God's demands even if they desperately want to.

Please. There are people who misconstrue Scripture or try to redefine it into their own little box, or they try to pretend to act impartial or ignorant to certain matters...and that's on top of all the people out there who don't care what others think or say but follow the beat of their own drummer.

I'm not caught off-guard by people who fall victim to one of the deadly sins or whatever emotions or feelings they may fall prey to; it happens, one problem with being human. It's approaching it from every direction feasible and trying to rationalize a way God would throw an exception to the rule our way and then stretching that out to everyone.

 

[MikeK]

Maybe this is the reason some saints say that most people go to hell. Most people just can't live up to God's demands even if they desperately want to.

Ever read The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved by St Leonard of Port Maurice? It doesn't give me much hope. Thankfully, other Saints, like St Faustina, have painted a brighter picture.

 

[Gwendolyn]

I've already given myself one nervous breakdown trying to live up to God's demands.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Ever read The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved by St Leonard of Port Maurice? It doesn't give me much hope. Thankfully, other Saints, like St Faustina, have painted a brighter picture.

The Chaplet of Divine Mercy is one of my favourite Catholic things.