Birth control.

[Gwendolyn]

Still to me it seems insane that condoms cannot be used within the confines of marriage. They aren't perfect, a child can still come from them. I've heard a lot of arguments about people preventing God's will for them having a child but really if God wants a child to be born wouldn't that happen weather or not people use a condom? I can't remember which scripture it is but there's one that speaks about it's better to be married then to sin outside of marriage...I believe it's speaking about sex. I just don't see how God would create something for two married people to enjoy and you can only do it to create a child. Forgive me for being blunt and I'm trying to say this in the most polite way possible but if it wasn't supposed to be enjoyed and purely meant for procreation why would it be pleasurable? Animals get no pleasure and they create. The desire to have children would be the same I'm sure if sex wasn't enjoyable. It's all just confusing.

There is a difference between doing God's will and actively putting a barrier in the way, telling God you know better.
"Hey, God, you can do anything, right? So it doesn't matter if I disobey you because you could just do anything to get around my disobedience, right?"

 

[ourladyoftherosary]

This video explains the issue somewhat if anyone is interested.

Natural Family Planning: What is it, Why is it Good, How does it actually work? - YouTube

 

[The Fire Rises]

I'm going to try this again:

The theology of the Humane Vitae is not based directly on Biblical principles

It's based, almost solely, on Natural Law.

You are not asking the right question.

The right question is: What is the theological basis for the Churches prohibition of artificial birth control methods ?

That has an answer. The answer is Humane Vitae, an encyclical written on the subject by Pope Paul VI.

It can be found here

It is the best explanation on the subject and it's own theological defense.

Read it.

or not.

I don't really care, but it you do read it be advised: you won't completely understand it.

That's ok, but at least then we have a context on which to educate you on the subject.

Well, please excuse my ignorance. I've been reading up on Catholicism, a subject so vast that people devote their entire lives to it, for approxamitely three days.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Well, please excuse my ignorance. I've been reading up on Catholicism, a subject so vast that people devote their entire lives to it, for approxamitely three days.

Well, then you must by now understand that not all Catholic Theology is based solely, and some times not at all, on the Bible

 

[Michie]

Well, please excuse my ignorance. I've been reading up on Catholicism, a subject so vast that people devote their entire lives to it, for approxamitely three days.

I don't think he meant any harm Fire. Just being his usual self.

 

[The Fire Rises]

Well, then you must by now understand that not all Catholic Theology is based solely, and some times not at all, on the Bible

But there is some Biblical foundation to this issue, is there not? The story of Onan?

 

[Michie]

But there is some Biblical foundation to this issue, is there not? The story of Onan?

I think there is something to that but I just have a very vague memory of it in RCIA.

 

[The Fire Rises]

Gen 38: 8 - 10.

That was the one and only Biblical support that Catholic sites have offered thus far.

And what is RCIA?

 

[The Fire Rises]

There is one rather interesting point made by a site I was browsing:

"Pope Paul VI predicted grave consequences that would arise from the widespread and unrestrained use of contraception.

He warned, "Upright men can even better convince themselves of the solid grounds on which the teaching of the Church in this field is based if they care to reflect upon the consequences of methods of artificially limiting the increase of children.

Let them consider, first of all, how wide and easy a road would thus be opened up towards conjugal infidelity and the general lowering of morality. Not much experience is needed in order to know human weakness, and to understand that men—especially the young, who are so vulnerable on this point—have need of encouragement to be faithful to the moral law, so that they must not be offered some easy means of eluding its observance.

It is also to be feared that the man, growing used to the employment of anti-conceptive practices, may finally lose respect for the woman and, no longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, may come to the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion" (HV 17).

"No one can doubt the fulfillment of these prophetic words. They have all been more than fulfilled in this country as a result of the widespread availability of contraceptives, the "free love" movement that started in the 1960s, and the loose sexual morality that it spawned and that continues to pervade Western culture.

Indeed, recent studies reveal a far greater divorce rate in marriages in which contraception is regularly practiced than in those marriages where it is not."

 

[Michie]

Gen 38: 8 - 10.

That was the one and only Biblical support that Catholic sites have offered thus far.

And what is RCIA?

Yeah I knew the verse. I have a vague memory of it mentioned in RCIA. Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults. I'm a convert. I know I have an RCIA paper on this subject. I'll see if I can dig it up this weekend.

 

[The Fire Rises]

Please do lol. Anything I can get my hands on at this point would be appreciated. I've knocked down a lot of barriers in regards to a possible conversion to Catholicism, so far this has been the most controversial and stubborn one I've encountered.

 

[Michie]

Please do lol. Anything I can get my hands on at this point would be appreciated. I've knocked down a lot of barriers in regards to a possible conversion to Catholicism, so far this has been the most controversial and stubborn one I've encountered.

Oh I can relate. It was the same for me. I still tend to look over my shoulder every once in awhile but I guess I felt led there for a reason. I kept all my papers & will definitely grab my 20 pound notebook full of them & dig it up! LOL! Nothing is ever short & sweet with Catholicism.

 

[The Fire Rises]

It's a toughy, no doubt about that. I can definitely understand the moral and logical points behind it, I don't think it's unfounded or anything. What I struggle with is this: If I accept contraception (any and all kind of contraception) as being mortal sin, then many of the people I have looked up to in my life are culpable of terrible sin. (Granted, we're all sinners anyways, but still). What about people who are born non-Catholic, and never really hear about this Church doctrine? Can they commit a sin they've never heard of?

To my surprise, Martin Luther actually agreed with the Church on this issue. Pretty sure he called it an "abomination" and that anyone who does it deserves to be "struck dead by God", much like Onan was in the OT. That's hard for me to reconcile.

 

[Michie]

It's a toughy, no doubt about that. I can definitely understand the moral and logical points behind it, I don't think it's unfounded or anything. What I struggle with is this: If I accept contraception (any and all kind of contraception) as being mortal sin, then many of the people I have looked up to in my life are culpable of terrible sin. (Granted, we're all sinners anyways, but still). What about people who are born non-Catholic, and never really hear about this Church doctrine? Can they commit a sin they've never heard of?

No, not in my opinion. You cannot be judged on something you are ignorant of.

To my surprise, Martin Luther actually agreed with the Church on this issue. Pretty sure he called it an "abomination" and that anyone who does it deserves to be "struck dead by God", much like Onan was in the OT. That's hard for me to reconcile.

You'll probably be surprised to learn protestants stood with Catholics on this issue until the 1930's. I'll be back in a bit. I have to scoop the litter pan.

 

[The Fire Rises]

Yeah, that's what the same article was saying. The Anglicans were apprently the first ones to cave in (according to the site).

Haha I love that emoticon face. That's why I don't have cats. (Although being allergic probably has something to do with it too).

Here's something truly nasty: My neighbor picks up his dog's poo...with his bare hands. I was just strolling along one day, saw him outside. He just casually bends over and scoops it up, like it's nothing. And there's a perfectly good shovel 5 feet away.

I always get the weird neighbors : l

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Are you using this site:

Birth Control | Catholic Answers

 

[The Fire Rises]

Are you using this site:

Birth Control | Catholic Answers

Yeah, I think that's what we were both talking about. It was the first one that popped up with a Google search.

 

[Michie]

Yeah, that's what the same article was saying. The Anglicans were apprently the first ones to cave in (according to the site).

Haha I love that emoticon face. That's why I don't have cats. (Although being allergic probably has something to do with it too).

Here's something truly nasty: My neighbor picks up his dog's poo...with his bare hands. I was just strolling along one day, saw him outside. He just casually bends over and scoops it up, like it's nothing. And there's a perfectly good shovel 5 feet away.

I always get the weird neighbors : l

Oh... that is NASTY!

Good grief, he should bring a plastic grocery bag or something.

I'll get on those papers sometime this weekend. Right now I'm researching some WWII items I found at an estate sale.

 

[The Fire Rises]

What kind of items? My grandfather (the one I usually go to mass with) fought in the European theater, and eventually arrived at Berlin where he found this superbly designed German leather belt that had belonged to a solider , whoever made it put so much time and detail into it, it was amazing. Anyways he brought it home, and one day my grandmother threw it out by accident...suffice to say, he wasn't too pleased with that.

 

[Michie]

What kind of items? My grandfather (the one I usually go to mass with) fought in the European theater, and eventually arrived at Berlin where he found this superbly designed German leather belt that had belonged to a solider , whoever made it put so much time and detail into it, it was amazing. Anyways he brought it home, and one day my grandmother threw it out by accident...suffice to say, he wasn't too pleased with that.

1 piece is an old field hand crank phone generator. The other I'm still researching. It's battlefield equipment.