Birth Control

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Thanks for posting that link, Shannon.

At the risk of sounding impertinent may I ask you a question?

I was posting on this board last year and the year before when you were suffering with post-natal depression, following the birth of your seventh child. I was one of the people who (I hope) helped you through that difficult stage in your life. I was worried about you, at that time.

You said, then, that you were concerned about the fact that you had five children, living in a 2 bedroom house. This, coupled with your post natal depression, painted a picture of someone who was struggling to cope.

I wonder how it is that you feel able to cope with an eighth child. Surely, the Church, through Her priests have advised you about this? I would have thought that a person in your situation would have strong grounds for receiving permission to use some form of non-abortifacient contraception such as condoms or tubal ligation.

It is not a sin to ask for help.

The short answer is...grace. Scientifically speaking I ought not be pregnant, but alas...here I am with a day 5 baby and a day 10 ovulation.

And there have already been many past wrongs made right...my husband has bought me flowers when I told him, and again as I was struggling...and has just treated me like I am the sacred vessel I am. He actually is excited. Not just thinking we'll muddle thrugh somehow--but actually excited. That might seem like nothingness to some people---but to me those things are immeasurable gifts which I would have never received, had I chopped out part of my body.

I have an amazing support system and group of friends now too---and they are helping me really ratify a plan of action for my post partum times. A written down plan of who is coming to help me do what and when....and the things to look for as a warning that I need more help. Again that is such, such, such an amazing gift--to experience being surrounded by people who love me, not just in word--but in action.

And yes, I have talked to my spiritual director about my struggles immensely and every step of the way....and never. not once. has he said that contraception or sterilisation is the answer or permissible or advisable----but always been sure to remind me that while those alternatives are attractive, in the end they would remove my sexual expression from the ongoing healing and proper expression which it has now. Rather he encouraged other things to lend to my personal and deeper conversion, so that I might be able to better reside in trust--knowing that all of it--even the greatest sufferings--are all transformative and bringing new life to my soul.

I have and do ask for help---but I don't want help which enslaves me....I want true and authentic freedom---even if I have to suffer and struggle my entire life striving for it. What a gift it is to have this beautiful little being growing within my womb....how very blessed I am.....lol and as I write that one my 6 year old is in the next room singing a song saying "Thank you Lord for this day! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank for the baby in my mommy's belly! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! "

 

[2Cosmic2Charlie]

You may be a Christian and a Catholic one but you are very secularized and your way is the way of the world.

If that is out of line for me to say, sorry, but you know how hard it is to have a frank discussion here.

The deal is, and forgive me again for saying, but the deal is sin, as it is with us all.

That is what makes us perceived the bar being set too high.

it's not set too high, we are just reaching way to low.

You can take as many swings at me as you want.

(You should know that by now)

But it doesn't change the fact that getting married and being Catholic by your standards means nothing to toil, tears, and sweat - all of it a the whims of your reproductive system.

I don't think anybody would get married if they really felt that way, which is why your arguements are doomed to failure.

That's really my point in my over the top manner of posting




which get me into trouble on a regular basis.

 

[Rhamiel]

Why do so many Catholics practice birth control?

If Catholics who aren't practicing birth control have an air of martydom about their lives, talking about how they refuse to practice ABC despite near death experiences, too many children, disabled children, economic problems, health problems, etc. then of course young couples get a negative opinion about NFP.

It also seems to me that having an air of martyrdom about oneself can be as sinful as practicing ABC, because it creates a poisonous atmosphere in the home that casts a pall on the whole family.

This post is just an observation, not directed at any individual or individuals.

Joy is contagious. Joyful large families attract others. Joyful small families attract others.

I appreciate the sacrifices that people make to be faithful, but if they are accompanied by resentment for those who choose not to risk their lives, health, and economic stability then those people seek being witnesses and, instead, are just kvetchers.

I do not see at as people who practice NFP have an "air of martyrdom" about them, it is just life, you know? there are ups and downs, these people are just being honest about them

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I hope this won't sound insensitive......

but if it's really hard to go without birth control, (as i'm sure it is for some people) - why does that mean the Church is wrong in teaching against birth control? All Christian churches taught against it until around last century.. the ECFs were against it too.. the Church is the only church that still upholds the ancient teaching.

I understand it can be very hard.

the question is, is it worth it?

I think if someone really believes it's worth it, all the pain and hardship will help to sanctify them... and they can still be a "joyful family", even with the difficulties..

when we do difficult things for God, that doesn't destroy joy.. for the Saints, it even increased their joy.. but that's only if we actually do it for God and not just because we "have to". It's the intention that matters maybe?

I don't know. Just some thoughts.

If I ever get married I don't plan on using birth control except NFP. I think children are a blessing.

 

[colleen]

Shannon, it truly is amazing what God can accomplish! And, the little baby inside you is already blessed with a wonderful family.

 

[benedictaoo]

Why do so many Catholics practice birth control?

becuase they think they can.

If Catholics who aren't practicing birth control have an air of martydom about their lives, talking about how they refuse to practice ABC despite near death experiences, too many children, disabled children, economic problems, health problems, etc. then of course young couples get a negative opinion about NFP.

only when they look it through the eyes of the world and not through the eyes of faith.

This post is just an observation, not directed at any individual or individuals.

yeah right...

how did the Saints ever make it in your opinion, Fantine? According to you anyone who lives n trust in god and who lives on faith that they are doing what is right in spite of what the world says, is a crack pot to you.

You know Jesus did say that the world would not understand us and criticize us. Boy he wasn't kidding.

Joy is contagious. Joyful large families attract others. Joyful small families attract others.

I agree. I'm sad that HB failed to see the joy in Shannon's family and think she should be contracepting. I'm sad that she does not believe her 8th baby should be here.

I appreciate the sacrifices that people make to be faithful, but if they are accompanied by resentment for those who choose not to risk their lives, health, and economic stability then those people seek being witnesses and, instead,

No, that;s just your over active imagination.

what is resented is folks undermining the Church's unaffected teaching.

are just kvetchers.

is this English?

 

[benedictaoo]

You can take as many swings at me as you want.

(You should know that by now)

But it doesn't change the fact that getting married and being Catholic by your standards means nothing to toil, tears, and sweat - all of it a the whims of your reproductive system.

I don't think anybody would get married if they really felt that way, which is why your arguements are doomed to failure.

That's really my point in my over the top manner of posting




which get me into trouble on a regular basis.

I wasn't taking a swing at you- my post was sincere. and FYI- contracepting couples have troubles in life too.

 

[Rhamiel]

What about if her priest and confessor told her that she could get her tubes tied and it would be OK with the Church?

a priest should not advise people to do evil things

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Shannon, it truly is amazing what God can accomplish! And, the little baby inside you is already blessed with a wonderful family.

Thank you....just keep praying for me...for us...

 

[Rhamiel]

I hope this won't sound insensitive......

but if it's really hard to go without birth control, (as i'm sure it is for some people) - why does that mean the Church is wrong in teaching against birth control? All Christian churches taught against it until around last century.. the ECFs were against it too.. the Church is the only church that still upholds the ancient teaching.

I understand it can be very hard.

the question is, is it worth it?

I think if someone really believes it's worth it, all the pain and hardship will help to sanctify them... and they can still be a "joyful family", even with the difficulties..

when we do difficult things for God, that doesn't destroy joy.. for the Saints, it even increased their joy.. but that's only if we actually do it for God and not just because we "have to". It's the intention that matters maybe?

I don't know. Just some thoughts.

If I ever get married I don't plan on using birth control except NFP. I think children are a blessing.

you do not sound harsh at all sister, the place of redemtive suffering has been forgotten by many

 

[benedictaoo]

The short answer is...grace. Scientifically speaking I ought not be pregnant, but alas...here I am with a day 5 baby and a day 10 ovulation.

And there have already been many past wrongs made right...my husband has bought me flowers when I told him, and again as I was struggling...and has just treated me like I am the sacred vessel I am. He actually is excited. Not just thinking we'll muddle thrugh somehow--but actually excited. That might seem like nothingness to some people---but to me those things are immeasurable gifts which I would have never received, had I chopped out part of my body.

I have an amazing support system and group of friends now too---and they are helping me really ratify a plan of action for my post partum times. A written down plan of who is coming to help me do what and when....and the things to look for as a warning that I need more help. Again that is such, such, such an amazing gift--to experience being surrounded by people who love me, not just in word--but in action.

And yes, I have talked to my spiritual director about my struggles immensely and every step of the way....and never. not once. has he said that contraception or sterilisation is the answer or permissible or advisable----but always been sure to remind me that while those alternatives are attractive, in the end they would remove my sexual expression from the ongoing healing and proper expression which it has now. Rather he encouraged other things to lend to my personal and deeper conversion, so that I might be able to better reside in trust--knowing that all of it--even the greatest sufferings--are all transformative and bringing new life to my soul.

I have and do ask for help---but I don't want help which enslaves me....I want true and authentic freedom---even if I have to suffer and struggle my entire life striving for it. What a gift it is to have this beautiful little being growing within my womb....how very blessed I am.....lol and as I write that one my 6 year old is in the next room singing a song saying "Thank you Lord for this day! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank for the baby in my mommy's belly! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! "

and to think ppl want to take that away from you.

 

[April Angel]

I agree. I'm sad that HB failed to see the joy in Shannon's family and think she should be contracepting. I'm sad that she does not believe her 8th baby should be here.

Thanks for speaking for me, but it really isn't necessary.

NO I DID NOT SAY THAT I DO NOT THINK THAT SHANNON'S 8TH CHILD SHOULD BE HERE.

BUT, you must have a very short memory if you cannot remember the state that Shannon was in about a year ago, with her POST NATAL DEPRESSION. I am dreading her going through that again and I am not even related to her. But I am just dreading it.

I thank the Lord that Shannon did get through that stage in her life, but at the time, it was very frightening for anyone reading this board.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

FTR-- the whims of my reproductive system have allowed me to become a far, far better human being than I was...it forces me to keep stretching and growing, and looking deep within myself to access the depths of what I've been created to be. The whims of my reproductive system have allowed me to understand truly the value of following my own pursuits and interests, and being fully me outside of motherhood. The whims of my reproductive system have brought me a couple gifts of the most immense joy I have ever experienced in any sustained way.

Our marriage sucked far, far, far more 5 pregnancies ago...and likely would have ended had there not been the impetus to fight like hell for our kids---and now I have a marriage which is truly a gift to me, and helps me to be me in the fullest sense of who I am.

I understand well and deeply the struggles with contraception. I do not think contraception is some special sin---but rather one amongst a whole host of sins with which the faithful might struggle in an ongoing way. I think the Church extends mercy and JEsus understands the depth of our struggles...no matter what our struggles, even if they include our fertility.

 

[benedictaoo]

Thanks for speaking for me, but it really isn't necessary.

NO I DID NOT SAY THAT I DO NOT THINK THAT SHANNON'S 8TH CHILD SHOULD BE HERE.

BUT, you must have a very short memory if you cannot remember the state that Shannon was in about a year ago, with her POST NATAL DEPRESSION. I am dreading her going through that again and I am not even related to her. But I am just dreading it.

I thank the Lord that Shannon did get through that stage in her life, but at the time, it was very frightening for anyone reading this board.

I do remember it and she will get through it again, have some faith. everything happens for a reason HB. for those who love God that is and are open to his grace.

 

[2Cosmic2Charlie]

Ok, this is my last post in this thread because I swore of contraeptive threads a couple of years ago

But.....

Its been awhile since I made my points while bare knocking the subject so..

..just a little slip won't kill me.

I hope this won't sound insensitive......

but if it's really hard to go without birth control, (as i'm sure it is for some people) - why does that mean the Church is wrong in teaching against birth control?

Its not that it hard, it that its that its both hard and (at least to many) pointless.

Humane Vitae is just not convincingly written and the more people that actually analyze it, the more obvious this becomes. Thelology of the Body did nothing to help, it just expanded on the basis, which is the problem in the first place.

All Christian churches taught against it until around last century.E]

The Christian Chruch taught against credit, taught that a vacuum couldn't exist, that the stars moved around the the earth and that the slavery was a good idea.

Our interpretation of how the world should work and our relationship with each other changes as we learn more about Natural Law. (See the CCC on this)
Humanae Vitae is based almost solely on a speciific interpretation of Natural Law.

This is also an issue because the interpretation of Natural Law has changed across history.

. the ECFs were against it too.. the Church is the only church that still upholds the ancient teaching.

1) The ECF smokes crack on the subject of marriage, sex and women generally. This need to be taken into account when interpreting their words.

2) The chruch also reputated Galielo teaching until about 1920. The chruch moves kind of slowly. This is also a fact with people who think HV may be "clearified" in the future.

Which it may be since it is based on Natural Law and interpreting Natural Law is an ongoing process.

I understand it can be very hard.

People say this like married people are just to horny for words.

Its hard, not because it forces people to put off sex its hard because:

1) NFP just isn't very effective in practice. This should be obvious to anyone with a passing knowledge to gynocology. Every female reproductive system is different. While the generalities of the menstrual cycle may be effective for all women the specifices of actaully using them as a predictor of fertility (or more to the point infertility) are not.

The simple truth is: NFP is not anywhere near effective enough for every women across the span of her reproductive lifetime.

This means that as a birth control method is has a high failure rate.

This makes in hard to use. Hard being defined here as: untrustworthy

the question is, is it worth it?

The answer for a lot of couples, no.

When I was an NFP'er my wife and I could go weeks with knowing whether we were in an infertile time or not.

Does this mean we were pracing around like rabbits in cages unable to get to each other ?

No, but the marriage got quiet and it got cold and for a while the only thing holding us together was the kids.

This isn't a good situation. But it is predictable. Married people were meant by biology, psycology and (I will argue) by Natural Law to have sex with each other.

Lack thereof for long period of time leads to divorce.

I think if someone really believes it's worth it, all the pain and hardship will help to sanctify them... and they can still be a "joyful family"

Good for you.

Pracitical application suggests otherwise, however.

when we do difficult things for God, that doesn't destroy joy.. for the Saints, it even increased their joy.. but that's only if we actually do it for God and not just because we "have to". It's the intention that matters maybe?

You do not want to go down the road of intent with me on the subject of ABC.

I've wrestled better minds than yours to the ground on the subject.

(not knocking you, but I have)

I don't know. Just some thoughts.

If I ever get married I don't plan on using birth control except NFP.

Due respect:

You say that now.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Thanks for speaking for me, but it really isn't necessary.

NO I DID NOT SAY THAT I DO NOT THINK THAT SHANNON'S 8TH CHILD SHOULD BE HERE.

BUT, you must have a very short memory if you cannot remember the state that Shannon was in about a year ago, with her POST NATAL DEPRESSION. I am dreading her going through that again and I am not even related to her. But I am just dreading it.

I thank the Lord that Shannon did get through that stage in her life, but at the time, it was very frightening for anyone reading this board.

Heck yes---I was a mess. I was really, really in bad shape. But being me---I just chose to breathe down into the pain....and feel it...and let it wash over me....and not try to force it to abate. I did what I could do at the time to try to heal---but healing as it so often does, takes awhile and is painful. Blessedly--once again in a pretty amazing way--I was saved from any action which would be a permanent deep loss which with I must deal.

And give me a little credit---I don't not learn anything from the past. I am taking all steps I can to alleviate my suffering-nutritionally, exercising, supplementing, and support--being really forthright in my communication with my husband in regards to my emotional state on any given day. I mean I might be belligerent, but I am not steadfast in repeating the same things wishing for different results over and over again.

 

[benedictaoo]

FTR-- the whims of my reproductive system have allowed me to become a far, far better human being than I was...it forces me to keep stretching and growing, and looking deep within myself to access the depths of what I've been created to be. The whims of my reproductive system have allowed me to understand truly the value of following my own pursuits and interests, and being fully me outside of motherhood. The whims of my reproductive system have brought me a couple gifts of the most immense joy I have ever experienced in any sustained way.

Our marriage sucked far, far, far more 5 pregnancies ago...and likely would have ended had there not been the ompetus to fight like hell for our kids---and now I have a marriage which is truly a gift to me, and helps me to be me in the fullest sense of who I am.

I understand well and deeply the struggles with contraception. I do not think contraception is some special sin---but rather one amongst a whole host of sins with which the faithful might struggle in an ongoing way. I think the Church extends mercy and JEsus understands the depth of our struggles...no matter what our struggles, even if they include our fertility.

I know where you are coming from. Each child brings with it a healing and these ppl will never undersand it becuase they have chosen to not live it.

And I do recall trying to convey this to you a long time ago but you would have nothing to do with me.

Remember... I have been where you are at- I am a little further down the road and I do not want to tell you (becuase you refuse to listen to me) what lies ahead. There will always be trouble, some kind or another.

Life is lived in stages but you never seem to believe I have any wisdom at all- it's too bad becuase really and truly I am probably the only one who can really empathize with you.

 

[Rhamiel]

Its not that it hard, it that its that its both hard and (at least to many) pointless.

Humane Vitae is just not convincingly written and the more people that actually analyze it, the more obvious this becomes. Thelology of the Body did nothing to help, it just expanded on the basis, which is the problem in the first place.

what ever happened to simple faith? so Humane Vitae does not appeal to your intelect, so what? it is still the teaching of the Church that Christ gave to us so that all mankind might be brought to Him

 

[Rhamiel]

shannon

And give me a little credit---I don't not learn anything from the past. I am taking all steps I can to alleviate my suffering-nutritionally, exercising, supplementing, and support--being really forthright in my communication with my husband in regards to my emotional state on any given day. I mean I might be belligerent, but I am not steadfast in repeating the same things wishing for different results over and over again

i am very happy to hear that you are planning for possible problems

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Ok, this is my last post in this thread because I swore of contraeptive threads a couple of years ago

But.....

Its been awhile since I made my points while bare knocking the subject so..

..just a little slip won't kill me.



Its not that it hard, it that its that its both hard and (at least to many) pointless.

Humane Vitae is just not convincingly written and the more people that actually analyze it, the more obvious this becomes. Thelology of the Body did nothing to help, it just expanded on the basis, which is the problem in the first place.

The Christian Chruch taught against credit, taught that a vacuum couldn't exist, that the stars moved around the the earth and that the slavery was a good idea.

Our interpretation of how the world should work and our relationship with each other changes as we learn more about Natural Law. (See the CCC on this)
Humanae Vitae is based almost solely on a speciific interpretation of Natural Law.

This is also an issue because the interpretation of Natural Law has changed across history.

1) The ECF smokes crack on the subject of marriage, sex and women generally. This need to be taken into account when interpreting their words.

2) The chruch also reputated Galielo teaching until about 1920. The chruch moves kind of slowly. This is also a fact with people who think HV may be "clearified" in the future.

Which it may be since it is based on Natural Law and interpreting Natural Law is an ongoing process.

People say this like married people are just to horny for words.

Its hard, not because it forces people to put off sex its hard because:

1) NFP just isn't very effective in practice. This should be obvious to anyone with a passing knowledge to gynocology. Every female reproductive system is different. While the generalities of the menstrual cycle may be effective for all women the specifices of actaully using them as a predictor of fertility (or more to the point infertility) are not.

The simple truth is: NFP is not anywhere near effective enough for every women across the span of her reproductive lifetime.

This means that as a birth control method is has a high failure rate.

This makes in hard to use. Hard being defined here as: untrustworthy

The answer for a lot of couples, no.

When I was an NFP'er my wife and I could go weeks with knowing whether we were in an infertile time or not.

Does this mean we were pracing around like rabbits in cages unable to get to each other ?

No, but the marriage got quiet and it got cold and for a while the only thing holding us together was the kids.

This isn't a good situation. But it is predictable. Married people were meant by biology, psycology and (I will argue) by Natural Law to have sex with each other.

Lack thereof for long period of time leads to divorce.


Good for you.

Pracitical application suggests otherwise, however.

You do not want to go down the road of intent with me on the subject of ABC.

I've wrestled better minds than yours to the ground on the subject.

(not knocking you, but I have)

Due respect:

You say that now.

well I'm choosing to follow the Church teaching on this. This is faith and morals.. not like Galileo. And it's something the entire early Church agreed on, not just 1 or 2 ECFs.

there are things the Church teaches that are difficult for me to follow or to believe in... does that mean I shouldn't follow them? I don't think so.. if God lead me here He'll surely take me through the rest, even if it'll be really hard. And yea I do think that children are a blessing.. however many God will decide to give me, that's in His hands. NOt in mine. Shouldn't be in mine. We live for Christ and do His will in all things, and we need to trust Him, that even if we'll suffer, He'll make use of that suffering and in the end we'll see we did the right thing in obedience.