Birth Control

[Rhamiel]

when someone on this board says a woman with Tublagation, is ex-communicated... How many men get threatened with ex-communication for having a vescetomy... I can guess it is none...

this is not about gender, it is the same for men as it is for women, contraception is evil

Apparently talking about reality, makes me anti-Catholic,

sin is in the world, it is a reality, I do not think you are evil, but I do think you are wrong about some of these issues, you seem to be making an argument based on utilitarianism, and Christianity has always been very idealistic, you point out that most people do this or that, I do not really think that matters in determining if something is right or wrong, at a time, most of the Church in the East and a sizable minority of the Church in the West was gnostic

 

[benedictaoo]

Geez Louise...

A women who has had a tubal commits a sin- I'm not getting into specifics here, if the sin mortal or not. Heck if i know BUT objectively speaking (something y'all have such a hard time grasping, I'm speaking objectively here) it is a GRAVE sin. DO you know what that is?

DO you understand what I'm telling you?

IT IS A SIN OF GRAVE MATTER. Nothing on earth can change that.

If it is for reasons, like she just made up her mind one day that she was not having any more kids so she wanted to make her life easy- just get sterilized, then in all probability her sin is mortal.

If she never sees the error of her ways and she just totally disregards the teaching and keeps on taking Communion anyway- in her arrogance-- she incurs more sin. Her soul is in a bad way.

What she thinks and feels about it does not decide the state of her soul. If the women knows the teaching but just does not care about it, she has a problem.

Why no one can wrap their brains around this.. i do not know.

Now if the women has a bunch of kids, has a illness of some sort and NFP truly and really does not work, then she needs to figure out what to do.

we are not talking about those women.

We are talking about women who just ignore the Church out of arrogance and rebellion.

Y'all are throwing around culpability like it's nothing.

The culpability factor is is very narrow.

"It's hard..." is not a culpability factor.

"I'm tired and broke" is not either.

"The world sucks right now" isn't either.

"I just suck at using NFP" is not it either.

This isn't gym class we are trying to get out of so we look for an excuse.

If you choose against it for these reasons--- why on earth can't you just admit you are dissenting and then just let the chips fall where they may?

 

[lavenderbees]

The culpability factor is is very narrow.

"It's hard..." is not a culpability factor.

"I'm tired and broke" is not either.

"The world sucks right now" isn't either.

"I just suck at using NFP" is not it either.

This isn't gym class we are trying to get out of so we look for an excuse.

If you choose against it for these reasons--- why on earth can't you just admit you are dissenting and then just let the chips fall where they may?

What about if her priest and confessor told her that she could get her tubes tied and it would be OK with the Church?

 

[benedictaoo]

What about if her priest and confessor told her that she could get her tubes tied and it would be OK with the Church?

If she knows better, and there really is no true and real actul grave reason to do it- then she is a fool to listen to him.

he's way out of line.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Just about as many as you have.

But here... and you tell me what is so wrong with telling pp about this?

You know it was written for the lay faithful right? It's recommened we all have one and read one.



So you are trying to tell me i have no business to tell pp about this teaching?

The Catechism was actually written with primarily Bishops and secondly priests as it's target audience.

I am saying that your interpretation and application of teaching...and your assertions of who carries what culpability for their sins is far, very far, from definitive in any way.

I have been trained as a master catechist, when our diocese still had a more orthodox Bishop than we have now. That's my limited training....which I mentioned was limited.

 

[benedictaoo]

The Catechism was actually written with primarily Bishops and secondly priests as it's target audience.

I am saying that your interpretation and application of teaching...and your assertions of who carries what culpability for their sins is far, very far, from definitive in any way.

I have been trained as a master catechist, when our diocese still had a more orthodox Bishop than we have now. That's my limited training....which I mentioned was limited.

How you make it sound subjective is what I object to. Come on Shannon, you know it's not. This is not Orthodoxy.

There are moral rights and moral wrongs.

You have no right with your limited training and all, to lead ppl to believe this is subjective. In Catholicism, it's not.

If a couple has to dissent- you know they do it with fear and trembling. They are never "allowed."

Further more, How you turn every thread into an attack against my character is really getting old.

You talking a big game about 'love' and 'compassion' but your speech against me is anything but. It's angry and hateful.

And I do not recall you ever one time ever apologizing to me.

But that's okay, throw your fiery darts right at me. I forgive you anyway and look the past the way you lash out at me every time this issue is brought up.

 

[lavenderbees]

If she knows better, and there really is no true and real actul grave reason to do it- then she is a fool to listen to him.

he's way out of line.

What about if she has a medical problem? What medical problem is grave enough?

How about hyperemesis gravidarum (excessive vomiting in pregnancy)?

Is that a good enough reason?

 

[lavenderbees]

I forgot to add:

POST NATAL DEPRESSION


Is that a good enough reason?

 

[benedictaoo]

Oh Lord... if you would have bothered to read my posts you would see that i already addressed that.

You ppl need to stop thinking that any one of you can entrap me or trip me up.

Look, this is what the Catholic Church teaches. Not what I teach. If you have a problem with it- don't get mad at me.

If you think there is an exception to this teaching then by all means post it for me.

Freak- why are y'all so stubborn? What is so difficult with comprehending what I am saying?

Just becuase a person may not be culpable for their sin, it does not mean they do not sin. They still commit sin, it just may not be a sin that kills the life of grace in them, but heck-- it's still a sin. It still will land them in purgatory.

It in no way means there is an exception to the teaching.

The teachings always, always stands and if a person is not at fault for not obeying thus committing a sin it has no baring on the teaching itself.

 

[2Cosmic2Charlie]

"I'm tired and broke" is not either.

It isn't ?

Since when is marriage a suicide pact ?

And if it is why should anyone get married ?

 

[benedictaoo]

I forgot to add:

POST NATAL DEPRESSION


Is that a good enough reason?

why don't you tell me if it is and why?

Does it make what is intrinsically evil, all of sudden not evil?

You tell me, is the teaching subjective? evil for one group of ppl and not the other?

 

[benedictaoo]

It isn't ?

Since when is marriage a suicide pact ?

And if it is why should anyone get married ?

if they can't afford to marry (support themselves) and are unable to receive children, they shouldn't get married.

The Church teaches that also.

 

[April Angel]

Excommunication is a formal canonical penalty.


There is such a thing known as culpability. Luckily it's not up to you to decide the culpability of anyone else.

And the Vademecum to Confessors seems to indicate that there is a time when non-abortive contraception (when involving a spouse) is a licit thing.

For those interested in what the Church teaches to Her confessors in regards to this area can read the document here:
Life and Family: Vademecum for Confessors concerning Some Aspects of the Morality of Conjugal Life :: CNA


Yes- contraception is a bad moral action (but as with all bad moral acts, one's culpability can be diminished), and yes someone can have sincere contrition and yet contracept again. There can be both moral certitude, and human weakness and frailty. It's why we're allowed to go to confession repeatedly. The whole situation also is far more complicated when spouses are not on the same page in regards to contraception, and the Church in Her wisdom recognises such.

It's why the Church rocks---She BOTH sets forth the Truth in no uncertain terms--the point of which is so that we can live in authentic freedom, not enslaved to disorder and sin....AND she recognises that it takes us time--sometimes our whole lives--to combat the ties which bind us, and so She offers us compassion and understanding in that struggle.

Thanks for posting that link, Shannon.

At the risk of sounding impertinent may I ask you a question?

I was posting on this board last year and the year before when you were suffering with post-natal depression, following the birth of your seventh child. I was one of the people who (I hope) helped you through that difficult stage in your life. I was worried about you, at that time.

You said, then, that you were concerned about the fact that you had five children, living in a 2 bedroom house. This, coupled with your post natal depression, painted a picture of someone who was struggling to cope.

I wonder how it is that you feel able to cope with an eighth child. Surely, the Church, through Her priests have advised you about this? I would have thought that a person in your situation would have strong grounds for receiving permission to use some form of non-abortifacient contraception such as condoms or tubal ligation.

It is not a sin to ask for help.

 

[2Cosmic2Charlie]

if they can't afford to marry (support themselves) and are unable to receive children, they shouldn't get married.

The Church teaches that also.

How many children do you have to be ready to receive before you can get married ?

On second thought forget it.

I'll just advise people who ask not to get married. It bar is set too high by the Chruch.

Single life is easier and requires a lot less in the way of moral quandaries.

People should live a lifestyle in which they are not tempted. Married is just to tempting a lifestyle from the standpoint of mortal sinning.

Clubbing until you drop.

That's a lifestyle I can get into.

 

[benedictaoo]

How many children do you have to be ready to receive before you can get married ?

On second thought forget it.

I'll just advise people who ask not to get married. It bar is set to high by the Chruch.

Single life is easier and requires a lot less in the way of moral quandaries.

People should live a lifestyle in which they are not tempted. Married is just to tempting a lifestyle from the standpoint of mortal sinning.

Clubbing until you drop.

That's a lifestyle I can get into.

I do appreciate your opinion, believe it or not.

and I DO understand that for secularized folks, the bar is set waay waay to high...

but for Christians, it's not set to high. With God, there isn't any bar set we can't reach.

 

[benedictaoo]

Thanks for posting that link, Shannon.

At the risk of sounding impertinent may I ask you a question?

I was posting on this board last year and the year before when you were suffering with post-natal depression, following the birth of your seventh child. I was one of the people who (I hope) helped you through that difficult stage in your life. I was worried about you, at that time.

You said, then, that you were concerned about the fact that you had five children, living in a 2 bedroom house. This, coupled with your post natal depression, painted a picture of someone who was struggling to cope.

I wonder how it is that you feel able to cope with an eighth child. Surely, the Church, through Her priests have advised you about this? I would have thought that a person in your situation would have strong grounds for receiving permission to use some form of non-abortifacient contraception such as condoms or tubal ligation.

It is not a sin to ask for help.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

O.k. so most Catholics I know say you can be a Catholic and take birth control.

From what I know the offical teaching is no birth control.

Would someone have to give up birth control to be Catholic?

I know of a relative that left the Catholic church because she could not bare to have more children after a really drawn out and painful birth. Should she have stayed?

yes, if you're Catholic you can't use birth control.

 

[2Cosmic2Charlie]

I do appreciate your opinion, believe it or not.

and I DO understand that for secularized folks, the bar is set waay waay to high...

but for Christians, it's not set to high. With God, there isn't any bar set we can't reach.

I'm a Christian.

I'm Catholic.

I've been married to the same person for 23 years.

The bar is set

too

damn

high.

I've never heard a sermon on the "calling" and "responiblities" for single people.

Married:

Don't have sex unless in a safe time, if you can't determine a safe time, tough.

Accept poverty, exhaustion, endless daipers, 100,000 dollars in educational expenses for a Catholic School that is going to close and move the suburbs anyway, support your parish, your community and if you don't want any more kids stop having sex

and if you don't like it


you're excommunicated.


Seriously, the Chruch is out of its mind on this.


You want my advise.

Take the money and have some fun before you die because marriage is just a 40 year pull with very little upside.

At least that's the way your portraying it.

Which, I'll give you your props, is the way the Chruch portrays it.

 

[benedictaoo]

You may be a Christian and a Catholic one but you are very secularized and your way is the way of the world.

If that is out of line for me to say, sorry, but you know how hard it is to have a frank discussion here.

The deal is, and forgive me again for saying, but the deal is sin, as it is with us all.

That is what makes us perceived the bar being set too high.

it's not set too high, we are just reaching way to low.

 

[Fantine]

Why do so many Catholics practice birth control?

If Catholics who aren't practicing birth control have an air of martydom about their lives, talking about how they refuse to practice ABC despite near death experiences, too many children, disabled children, economic problems, health problems, etc. then of course young couples get a negative opinion about NFP.

It also seems to me that having an air of martyrdom about oneself can be as sinful as practicing ABC, because it creates a poisonous atmosphere in the home that casts a pall on the whole family.

This post is just an observation, not directed at any individual or individuals.

Joy is contagious. Joyful large families attract others. Joyful small families attract others.

I appreciate the sacrifices that people make to be faithful, but if they are accompanied by resentment for those who choose not to risk their lives, health, and economic stability then those people seek being witnesses and, instead, are just kvetchers.