Birth Control

[benedictaoo]

Excommunication is a formal canonical penalty.


There is such a thing known as culpability. Luckily it's not up to you to decide the culpability of anyone else.

And the Vademecum to Confessors seems to indicate that there is a time when non-abortive contraception (when involving a spouse) is a licit thing.

For those interested in what the Church teaches to Her confessors in regards to this area can read the document here:
Life and Family: Vademecum for Confessors concerning Some Aspects of the Morality of Conjugal Life :: CNA


Yes- contraception is a bad moral action (but as with all bad moral acts, one's culpability can be diminished), and yes someone can have sincere contrition and yet contracept again. There can be both moral certitude, and human weakness and frailty. It's why we're allowed to go to confession repeatedly. The whole situation also is far more complicated when spouses are not on the same page in regards to contraception, and the Church in Her wisdom recognises such.

It's why the Church rocks---She BOTH sets forth the Truth in no uncertain terms--the point of which is so that we can live in authentic freedom, not enslaved to disorder and sin....AND she recognises that it takes us time--sometimes our whole lives--to combat the ties which bind us, and so She offers us compassion and understanding in that struggle.

I have said nothing against culpability. I referred to out right rebellion.

Are you seriously telling me you have no issues at all with the view points presented here? that it's okay, you are free to merely disagree and you can take Communion and ABC at the same time and all's right with the world?

You do not feel the need to correct this very warped untrue understanding at all?

 

[benedictaoo]

well the CCC does say this

sin is always sin, but through differant factors it can be lessened from mortal to venial

and to teach ppl there is a loop hole also lessens their culpability as well. Where does it ever end?

you are making it sound as if this is open ended... it is not.

Are we really ever free to just disagree if we just can't see ourselves obeying this? Tell me Alex, are we?

Are we ever free to disobey becuase it's a hard teaching?

What if decided i just can't agree with the resurrection anymore? Am I free to just humbly dissent from it?

Dissent is not culpability, darn it. It's dissent and NO ONE is free to do that.

I can not believe we are back to square one again. it happens every time ppl get pregnant.

if you can't agree personally with the teaching, just be honest enough to call it what it is DISSENT! Don't make us excuses where you can act like you are not culpable.

 

[Rois]

I actually agree with that...outside of our cosy, western world that most here on this board live in.. there are millions of children with nothing to eat, who are sold to feed their families....I also think that as we are in serious economic trouble (what ever the UK and US suffer it will be ten times worse for the third world or even the small European countries such as Italy), people do not want children, when they are losing their jobs and can't afford to feed them... pregnancy under those circumstances is not a joyful event it is a crisis and can destroy a marriage and family security...

My parish seems to have a don't ask, don't tell approach..it seems that parish priests are generally not dogmatic because they meet the people and understand the issues...

Lucy, I do understand that feeling---I had a similar response after taking some classes on women and international health (reproductive issues ranked high) a few years ago. They focused mainly on third-world countries.

On one hand, there is poverty, ignorance, illiteracy, social demands, gender roles, etc in countries across the world--name the cause, it's an issue that affects the reproductive health of women. On the other hand, there is the Catholic church's teachings on ABC and family. I think, in general, we can all agree that to be pro-family is not uncommon. I think most countries have that. ABC though is not the factor that will save these women and families from issues of poverty. Ok, it will alleviate the number of children, but for any real change to occur the society they live in has to change. It's too simple to say ABC=less family members=better country and better lives, but that's not always the case. I don't like to making sweeping generalizations, because I do know that pregnancy is not greeted with joy every time.

It's not an easy issue---it's not easy to accept that this is what the Catholic Church teaches and that's what we have to do (no wonder the thread has been so long!). People do it anyway, because when it does come down to it that IS what the Church teaches. If we're going to be a religion of pro-life people here, we can't endorse ABC, it's contradictory. Women for centuries have used other methods to limit birthing, methods that don't involve ABC.

 

[benedictaoo]

It's not an easy issue---it's not easy to accept that this is what the Catholic Church teaches and that's what we have to do (no wonder the thread has been so long!). People do it anyway, because when it does come down to it that IS what the Church teaches. If we're going to be a religion of pro-life people here, we can't endorse ABC, it's contradictory. Women for centuries have used other methods to limit birthing, methods that don't involve ABC.

Thank you Rois.

Lucy just does not get she is promoting non Catholic, pro Margaret Sanger ideals. it has no place here in this forum.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

I have said nothing against culpability. I referred to out right rebellion.

Are you seriously telling me you have no issues at all with the view points presented here? that it's okay, you are free to merely disagree and you can take Communion and ABC at the same time and all's right with the world?

You do not feel the need to correct this very warped untrue understanding at all?

No I don't. I feel the need to present the Church's words, and encourage people to get their answers from some other source than an internet forum, and to work out with their confessor what they ought to do in regards to receiving Communion.

See, I know that the Holy Spirit convicts and converts and draws one into deeper union...and not me. I also know the limitations of my education in the area, and that I lack the specific grace to properly shepherd souls. I have specific grace to teach and educate my own children in the Faith...but that's it.

I don't think the Church is in peril, I do not think the gates of Hell are prevailing against Her. I don't think contraception is somehow endangering the Church, and that given grace and understanding and patience many people will come to better understand the Church's view over time if they are immersed in grace and understanding and patience. And I absolutely believe that while people are working through all of this---that is much better for them to be inside the Church than outside. Revealed Truth..sometimes takes people awhile, but luckily and blessedly we aren't expected to be at the height of understanding the moment we are baptised or confirmed---but rather as Catholics we view this as the work of an entire lifetime.

My view of Church is inclusive--yours is exclusive.

 

[Rhamiel]

and to teach ppl there is a loop hole also lessens their culpability as well. Where does it ever end?

you are making it sound as if this is open ended... it is not.

Are we really ever free to just disagree if we just can't see ourselves obeying this? Tell me Alex, are we?

Are we ever free to disobey becuase it's a hard teaching?

What if decided i just can't agree with the resurrection anymore? Am I free to just humbly dissent from it?

Dissent is not culpability, darn it. It's dissent and NO ONE is free to do that.

I can not believe we are back to square one again. it happens every time ppl get pregnant.

if you can't agree personally with the teaching, just be honest enough to call it what it is DISSENT! Don't make us excuses where you can act like you are not culpable.

i never said dissent would lessen the culpability of a person

 

[benedictaoo]

No I don't. I feel the need to present the Church's words, and encourage people to get their answers from some other source than an internet forum, and to work out with their confessor what they ought to do in regards to receiving Communion.

See, I know that the Holy Spirit convicts and converts and draws one into deeper union...and not me. I also know the limitations of my education in the area, and that I lack the specific grace to properly shepherd souls. I have specific grace to teach and educate my own children in the Faith...but that's it.

I don't think the Church is in peril, I do not think the gates of Hell are prevailing against Her. I don't think contraception is somehow endangering the Church, and that given grace and understanding and patience many people will come to better understand the Church's view over time if they are immersed in grace and understanding and patience. And I absolutely believe that while people are working through all of this---that is much better for them to be inside the Church than outside. Revealed Truth..sometimes takes people awhile, but luckily and blessedly we aren't expected to be at the height of understanding the moment we are baptised or confirmed---but rather as Catholics we view this as the work of an entire lifetime.

My view of Church is inclusive--yours is exclusive.

You need to stand up more for the truth Shannon.

 

[lucyclaire]

Lucy- you are so talking to the wrong Chick here.

i have a son with autism and two of my other kids have one learning disability or another. and I have a husband who is non practicing himself but not as non practicing as I see some folks. So i have every excuse in the book to use ABC or sterilization. I even had a OBGYN beg me to get sterilized, claimimg I was risking my life not doing it.

I 'm high risk. I'm not supposed to get pregnant again. But i do not use ABC and I use NFP. I was told after #3 anymore pregnancies can kill me. Guess what? they didn't.

But you have totally missed the point.

the Catholic Church teaches officially that ABC's of all kinds and any kind are always immoral.

The Catholic Church teaches that we are never free to use evil if we have a good reason for using it.

The Catholic Church also teaches us that if we commit a Mortal sin we are not free to o to the Communion unless we have reconciled ourselves back to the Church (sacramental Confession).

these are facts.

You seriously need a CCC.

You seriously need to stop speaking on behalf of the Church.

Good for you, you are a super woman and have loads of kids, it works for you....but it doesn't work with every woman and in economic crisis it works with even fewer... Some mothers with autistic children chose to not have more to concentrate on the children they have, others find their marriage under pressure and they can't make ends meet if they don't work.. I live in one of the most expensive cities on earth, where people can't afford mortgages unless they are seriously rich....Maybe marriage and sex should be restricted to the rich because they are the only ones that can afford to have lots of children...

I think my views are in the majority, amoung Catholics. So maybe you are one of the few real Catholic and the rest of us are just fakes in your eyes, thankfully Priests are less dogmatic and more about Jesus and what he would do, about the fact Jesus commands us to love one another.......they are well educated and do forgive, counsel and console... Quiet often those that are loudest about CCC and ex-communication and the most Conservative have never been Parish Priests and have often had little contact with ordinary Catholics....That is one of The Popes problems he is an intellectual, who has lived a very sheltered life, which is why it is dangerous when he speaks and he is so gaffe prone....
In fact the Catholic Church is so rich because of it's diversity in opinion and thought.....
I am by far the only one that thinks like it...I have no problem with fact that people are making that choice or the fact that the majority of Parish Priests all over the world seem to be turning a blind eye, because people have been regulating and chosing how many children they have since the 60's... most Catholics my own age, come from families of two or three, some have four but they still stop.....so it is clearly not new, and I don't believe for one minute they stopped having children because they used NFP...It may contradict the CCC, but it is a fact of Catholic living.. even in South America they are having less children...look around you..it is real life..

And for the record, I have to use NFP as I am allergic of latex and The Pill messes me up badly...However I understand that why women will stop having children and I have no issues what I did in the past and my confessor barely batted an eyelid....I have never had on second of judgement ......

 

[benedictaoo]

i never said dissent would lessen the culpability of a person

and i never said culpability was not a factor.

 

[benedictaoo]

Good for you, you are a super woman and have loads of kids, it works for you....but it doesn't work with every woman and in economic crisis it works with even fewer... Some mothers with autistic children chose to not have more to concentrate on the children they have, others find their marriage under pressure and they can't make ends meet if they don't work.. I live in one of the most expensive cities on earth, where people can't afford mortgages unless they are seriously rich....Maybe marriage and sex should be restricted to the rich because they are the only ones that can afford to have lots of children...

I think my views are in the majority, amoung Catholics. So maybe you are one of the few real Catholic and the rest of us are just fakes in your eyes, thankfully Priests are less dogmatic and more about Jesus and what he would do, about the fact Jesus commands us to love one another.......they are well educated and do forgive, counsel and console... Quiet often those that are loudest about CCC and ex-communication and the most Conservative have never been Parish Priests and have often had little contact with ordinary Catholics....That is one of The Popes problems he is an intellectual, who has lived a very sheltered life, which is why it is dangerous when he speaks and he is so gaffe prone....
In fact the Catholic Church is so rich because of it's diversity in opinion and thought.....
I am by far the only one that thinks like it...I have no problem with fact that people are making that choice or the fact that the majority of Parish Priests all over the world seem to be turning a blind eye, because people have been regulating and chosing how many children they have since the 60's... most Catholics my own age, come from families of two or three, some have four but they still stop.....so it is clearly not new, and I don't believe for one minute they stopped having children because they used NFP...It may contradict the CCC, but it is a fact of Catholic living.. even in South America they are having less children...look around you..it is real life..

And for the record, I have to use NFP as I am allergic of latex and The Pill messes me up badly...However I understand that why women will stop having children and I have no issues what I did in the past and my confessor barely batted an eyelid....I have never had on second of judgement ......

get a CCC.

I never said we have to keep having children.. show me where one time I said that?

i said... our circumstances never change the fact the ABC are a evil unusable means if we can not have kids.

You seem to think we have a pass and we do not.

The folks you speak of are in dissent if they choose to ignore the Church out of sheer Margaret Sanger-esque convenience.

and as far as the way you write me off? how dare you assume I am super women? You think it's easy for me to not take the easy way out?

You think it's not hard for me?

 

[Rhamiel]

also, the "majority view" has not always been the moral view, among the incans human sacrifice was supported by the majority, it was still horrible

 

[benedictaoo]

That's right--ignore what Scripture tells us about sharing the Gospel in love and reverence!!!

where have i spoke against that? Stop it Shannon.

Sometimes the truth is a hard pill to swallow... do not be afraid to say what is true.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

You need to stand up more for the truth Shannon.

Luckily--you have zero say in my judgment--nor in that of anyone else here. We are called to give a ready account for the hope that is within us. That's hard to do if you don't seem to posses any hope...

Why would anyone want what you have? Why would anyone be drawn into giving up their lives for what you witness? People are drawn to emanating joy and supernatural peace. Your posts here seem to reflect zero amounts of either of those things.

 

[benedictaoo]

I do not want to drive people away from the Church.

so we keep the truth from them? or water it down? How's that helping?

 

[JacksLadder]

Everyone please chill.....

 

[benedictaoo]

I posted what the Church teaches in regards to guiding confessors in this area. If that is insufficient for you, it seems likely that nothing will satisfy you. Of course it just seems like you rather enjoy being angry and unsatisfied....but that is likely just a false impression given by the negative tone of nearly all of your posts on this forum.

What a priest tells a couple is between them and their priest...

Remind us again, what is your formal training in Church matters? How many years have you gone to seminary or ponitifcal university??

Just about as many as you have.

But here... and you tell me what is so wrong with telling pp about this?

You know it was written for the lay faithful right? It's recommened we all have one and read one.

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.155

2369 "By safeguarding both these essential aspects, the unitive and the procreative, the conjugal act preserves in its fullness the sense of true mutual love and its orientation toward man's exalted vocation to parenthood."156

2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. 157 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:158

Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality.... the difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.159

2371 "Let all be convinced that human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man's eternal destiny."160

2372 The state has a responsibility for its citizens' well-being. In this capacity it is legitimate for it to intervene to orient the demography of the population. This can be done by means of objective and respectful information, but certainly not by authoritarian, coercive measures. the state may not legitimately usurp the initiative of spouses, who have the primary responsibility for the procreation and education of their children.161 It is not authorized to intervene in this area with means contrary to the moral law.

So you are trying to tell me i have no business to tell pp about this teaching?

 

[Rhamiel]

so we keep the truth from them? or water it down? How's that helping?

i am just trying to present the truth with concern, these people are hurting themselves when they use ABC even if they do not know it, how can I present the truth so they are most likely to listen to me?

 

[benedictaoo]

Luckily--you have zero say in my judgment--nor in that of anyone else here. We are called to give a ready account for the hope that is within us. That's hard to do if you don't seem to posses any hope...

Why would anyone want what you have? Why would anyone be drawn into giving up their lives for what you witness? People are drawn to emanating joy and supernatural peace. Your posts here seem to reflect zero amounts of either of those things.

Sorry, but i don't buy it.

PPl do want to be resolved and strong willed.

Not wishy washy, weak and chronically complaining about their lives and lot in life.

 

[benedictaoo]

i am just trying to present the truth with concern, these people are hurting themselves when they use ABC even if they do not know it, how can I present the truth so they are most likely to listen to me?

Just state it and not make apologies for it.

 

[lucyclaire]

Lucy, I do understand that feeling---I had a similar response after taking some classes on women and international health (reproductive issues ranked high) a few years ago. They focused mainly on third-world countries.

On one hand, there is poverty, ignorance, illiteracy, social demands, gender roles, etc in countries across the world--name the cause, it's an issue that affects the reproductive health of women. On the other hand, there is the Catholic church's teachings on ABC and family. I think, in general, we can all agree that to be pro-family is not uncommon. I think most countries have that. ABC though is not the factor that will save these women and families from issues of poverty. Ok, it will alleviate the number of children, but for any real change to occur the society they live in has to change. It's too simple to say ABC=less family members=better country and better lives, but that's not always the case. I don't like to making sweeping generalizations, because I do know that pregnancy is not greeted with joy every time.

It's not an easy issue---it's not easy to accept that this is what the Catholic Church teaches and that's what we have to do (no wonder the thread has been so long!). People do it anyway, because when it does come down to it that IS what the Church teaches. If we're going to be a religion of pro-life people here, we can't endorse ABC, it's contradictory. Women for centuries have used other methods to limit birthing, methods that don't involve ABC.

I know what that church teaches and I know what it's people practice..
I don't expect ABC to be endorsed, but I also don't expect people to be called evil as they have been for making that choice... when someone on this board says a woman with Tublagation, is ex-communicated... How many men get threatened with ex-communication for having a vescetomy... I can guess it is none...
... Nobody id ex-communicated for that reason thankfully...it is a matter between a couple and their priest....
.Apparently talking about reality, makes me anti-Catholic, being concerned about over population, when the world is full of starving children is anti-Catholic, so maybe the millions of Catholics that have two children are also anti-Catholic.... Though I know it would be utterly irresponsible for me to have six children..
I live in a busy city, I would never ever be able to house, clothe or feed them...child care is nearly a months salary but two salaries are often needed .. unless you live on welfare!!... Two, maybe three would be my limit...that is managable and will take me into my forties..
The thing is, what is the difference between ABC and other methods if people use it to ensure they don't get pregnant, if it is successful as it is intended to by then there is no difference...anyone with a brain knows that ...There is no contreception that is 100% reliable...there are more millions of children concieved right now, despite the use of contraception.....In someways NFP if used right is more effective than The Pill than preventing pregnancy, because people on The Pill will be more likely to have sex when they are most fertile... A Catholic using NFP that does not want another child would not take that risk...

I do believe there is a problem with over population seven billion people and dwindling resources.. oddly it is not the Catholic Countries that have the biggest populations... It is not anti - Catholic to look around at the world and see problems, we don't live in a bubble and we are supposed to care..