Birth Control

[JacksLadder]

Jack, if you're a "liberal semi-Calvinist," it sounds as if there are probably quite a few differences you have from Catholicism.

And it also sounds as if you are an idealist. Never lose your idealism.

I'm glad you're on a spiritual search. I think God will respect your struggles and your striving, and that, ultimately, you will be blessed for taking the time and effort to find Him rather than taking whatever you've been taught as a child at face value.

If you said that your beliefs matched Catholicism in every other way except birth control I might respond differently, but it seems as if you are in a different place right now. Blessings to you.

As I stated in another thread I usually am too liberal for the conservatives and too conservative for the liberals. I am unbending to my own ideals but its my own ideals that are always shifting.

 

[2Cosmic2Charlie]

And yet your response has not been to refrain from either....but rather to embrace what the Church clearly states is illicit all circumstances, save one involving one's spouse.

(you know I love you, but I gotta me..)

Well, flawed logic is flawed logic. If you can't determine what is morally correct from the argument given then on what basis do I have to determine the morality of either NFP or BC ?

And...

..to my credit I was an NFP'er for about 10 years.

I found its effectiveness questionable, its use difficult in a marriage where the women worked rotating shifts and its effect on my marriage as result detrimental.

And....

...at the moment menopause has stepped in made the whole thing an academic argument in my life anyway.

 

[Fantine]

but look at the problems in Japan and Europe due to shrining native populations? Growth is need for both nations and religions, people do not think about the common good anymore
this theory leaves out the many theological reasons why contraception is bad
even if it was just done for that reason, the Church still has the authority to make rules

Yes, countries encounter economic problems when not enough children are born to insure a stable or slightly growing population.

On the other hand, average family sizes of 5 or 6 children would create different disastrous conditions for overpopulated countries like Japan, where there is very little land.

Nature had its ways of overcoming overpopulation in the past--famines, war, disease, plagues....

What I see in the industrialized world is that the pendulum has swung too far in one direction, but immigration is providing plenty of young hardworking citizens in countries with less population growth (including the US.)

I think that NFP is more respectful of the "common good," even when there might not be pressing need in an individual family.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

And....

...at the moment menopause has stepped in made the whole thing an academic argument in my life anyway.

Ahhhh--the promised land of Menopause!!! Personally I've chosen to use pregnancy as contraception...lol!

 

[Rhamiel]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, and in fact Europe's trend on all social issues of family is very troubling.

they do seem to value the children they do have a lot, there are lots of nice parks and playgrounds, many of the museums and historical sites have discounts for families, so while they have a lot of problems, it is not all bad

 

[lucyclaire]

neither do I.. show me where i said that?

All i said is what constitutes mortal sin and not being free to go to Communion.

If you use ABC to prevent pregnancy, you may not go to Communion. I mean you can but you take it in judgement of your sins, not in forgiveness of them.

it does not matter if you have no kids or a 100 kids.

and if I am lying, I'm dying.

Fortunately you don't actually decide that, you are not a confessor, you are not a priest and you are not a man either, so it is not your decision or your place to suggest who can and can't receive communion... You don't know who is using ABC or NFP to prevent pregnancy and both are used to prevent pregnancy, so I can't see why it is any better or worse actually....You don't know if the women in your church are using NFP or ABC, unless you have lots of large families I would think they are using something other then NFP, I would hate to know what you think of families with two children, when they come to church... but I'll bet their parents are welcome .....
As long as Cherie Booth is not ex-communicated and she admitted to using contraception in her book, she has had audiences with The Pope and her husband can be come a Catholic after starting a war...ABC users are safe...They have openly attack Pope Benedict XVI and they are still not ex-communicated...There would be very little church left if the church seriously ex-communicated people for it only single men and elderly, conservative women will be left..
Nobody goes to Communion free from sin, nobody....for some it is getting the snip or using condoms, for others it is judging others or not putting others before themselves...
And the reasons for preventing pregnancy maybe because of money worries, which went people are losing the their homes and health insurance.. some because they suffer very bad Post-Natal Depression or clinical depression or had a bad pregnancy and fear another or they have a child that has problems such as autism, leaving them exhausted and another child would be too much and maybe kill their marriage....calling them "weak and frail" is robbing them of love and understanding...

 

[Rhamiel]

Well, that's the issue isn't it ?

Many Catholics don't see BC as de facto a problem with their spouses or their relationship with God.

However, many Catholics have evidence that the use of NFP does cause problems with their marriages and their relationship with God.

Then there's me:

I think the logic that states that NFP is a licit form of birth control and non-abortive ABC is not is convoluted and unconvincing.

I am an unmarried man, so I do not want to be to harsh in judging those who use NFP, but it does not make 100% sense to me either, I see what they mean, but parts of it does not ring true.
but as I have stated before, when my conscience and the Church do not agree, I show deference to the Church, even if I can not see the effects of sin, I should trust that it is there because I can not see everything, and niether can you 2C2C

 

[Rhamiel]

They have openly attack Pope Benedict XVI and they are still not ex-communicated

a link between sin and open rebellion, not that shocking

There would be very little church left if the church seriously ex-communicated people for it only single men and elderly, conservative women will be left..

a lot of young people do not use contraception, a friend of mine from school is getting married and they are planning to use NFP

 

[Rois]

hmmm no one my age (that I know of) has really heard of NFP....I took a morality class in h.s., which covered some pretty outdated methods. Non-religious people use methods of NFP too, if you don't like the fake hormones in BCPs (or for other reasons).

 

[benedictaoo]

Fortunately you don't actually decide that, you are not a confessor, you are not a priest and you are not a man either, so it is not your decision or your place to suggest who can and can't receive communion... You don't know who is using ABC or NFP to prevent pregnancy and both are used to prevent pregnancy, so I can't see why it is any better or worse actually....You don't know if the women in your church are using NFP or ABC, unless you have lots of large families I would think they are using something other then NFP, I would hate to know what you think of families with two children, when they come to church... but I'll bet their parents are welcome .....
As long as Cherie Booth is not ex-communicated and she admitted to using contraception in her book, she has had audiences with The Pope and her husband can be come a Catholic after starting a war...ABC users are safe...They have openly attack Pope Benedict XVI and they are still not ex-communicated...There would be very little church left if the church seriously ex-communicated people for it only single men and elderly, conservative women will be left..
Nobody goes to Communion free from sin, nobody....for some it is getting the snip or using condoms, for others it is judging others or not putting others before themselves...
And the reasons for preventing pregnancy maybe because of money worries, which went people are losing the their homes and health insurance.. some because they suffer very bad Post-Natal Depression or clinical depression or had a bad pregnancy and fear another or they have a child that has problems such as autism, leaving them exhausted and another child would be too much and maybe kill their marriage....calling them "weak and frail" is robbing them of love and understanding...

Lucy- you are so talking to the wrong Chick here.

i have a son with autism and two of my other kids have one learning disability or another. and I have a husband who is non practicing himself but not as non practicing as I see some folks. So i have every excuse in the book to use ABC or sterilization. I even had a OBGYN beg me to get sterilized, claimimg I was risking my life not doing it.

I 'm high risk. I'm not supposed to get pregnant again. But i do not use ABC and I use NFP. I was told after #3 anymore pregnancies can kill me. Guess what? they didn't.

But you have totally missed the point.

the Catholic Church teaches officially that ABC's of all kinds and any kind are always immoral.

The Catholic Church teaches that we are never free to use evil if we have a good reason for using it.

The Catholic Church also teaches us that if we commit a Mortal sin we are not free to o to the Communion unless we have reconciled ourselves back to the Church (sacramental Confession).

these are facts.

You seriously need a CCC.

You seriously need to stop speaking on behalf of the Church.

 

[lucyclaire]

I don't accept your argument.

Growth is an a de facto virtue nor is it required for the common good.

Populations ebb and follow. They have shrunk and grown over time.

There are almost 7 billion people on this planet and its supporting them is harming it. 7 billion people is an unattainably large human population, yet growth is still being argued as a common good.

I just don't get it. At some point the morality of more children beyond a certain point has to be considered just as the morality of no children or a small number of them has to be considered.

I actually agree with that...outside of our cosy, western world that most here on this board live in.. there are millions of children with nothing to eat, who are sold to feed their families....I also think that as we are in serious economic trouble (what ever the UK and US suffer it will be ten times worse for the third world or even the small European countries such as Italy), people do not want children, when they are losing their jobs and can't afford to feed them... pregnancy under those circumstances is not a joyful event it is a crisis and can destroy a marriage and family security...

My parish seems to have a don't ask, don't tell approach..it seems that parish priests are generally not dogmatic because they meet the people and understand the issues...

 

[benedictaoo]

dp

 

[benedictaoo]

I actually agree with that...outside of our cosy, western world that most here on this board live in.. there are millions of children with nothing to eat, who are sold to feed their families....I also think that as we are in serious economic trouble (what ever the UK and US suffer it will be ten times worse for the third world or even the small European countries such as Italy), people do not want children, when they are losing their jobs and can't afford to feed them... pregnancy under those circumstances is not a joyful event it is a crisis and can destroy a marriage and family security...

My parish seems to have a don't ask, don't tell approach..it seems that parish priests are generally not dogmatic because they meet the people and understand the issues...

This is so unbelievable anti catholic.

Ate you new to this forum?

You are not free to promote understandings that are contrary to Church teachings.

You really are breaking the rules here.

 

[Rhamiel]

I actually agree with that...outside of our cosy, western world that most here on this board live in.. there are millions of children with nothing to eat, who are sold to feed their families....I also think that as we are in serious economic trouble (what ever the UK and US suffer it will be ten times worse for the third world or even the small European countries such as Italy), people do not want children, when they are losing their jobs and can't afford to feed them... pregnancy under those circumstances is not a joyful event it is a crisis and can destroy a marriage and family security...

My parish seems to have a don't ask, don't tell approach..it seems that parish priests are generally not dogmatic because they meet the people and understand the issues...

poverty is not an excuse for sin, I know that sounds harsh, but it is true, the economy is getting bad, but that does not mean we can steal from people or commit other crimes, evil is not justified by hardships

 

[benedictaoo]

Just something to keep in mind....none of the folks responding in this thread have ANY formal education or training in the Faith, whatsoever. (barring myself who has very minimal formal training)

We also DO NOT have the grace specific to the sacrament of Holy Orders in regards to shepherding souls.

God gave us priests to care for our souls...and you'll notice that when that is brought up a certain type of person will then carry on about how shoddy priests are, that the knowledge and counsel which they offer here is somehow superior or more authentic.

Please- PLEASE- do not use this board as a measure of Catholicism or of how to deal with your troubles and struggles. It is absolutely not representative of the Church, nor Her pastoral approach.

Oh Please.

Answer my question Shannon.. What does the Church teach us officially about ABC? Are they always evil or only sometimes evil or are they only evil for strong willed ppl and not evil for poor little weaklings?

If any preist tells a couple becuase of ordinary hardships we all face in life, they are free to use any kind of ABC, even abortifacients like pills, shots and implants, you are telling me they are correct?

Give me a serious break.

Get out of this subjective relativism world you are living in. The rules do not change depending on the person.

 

[benedictaoo]

poverty is not an excuse for sin, I know that sounds harsh, but it is true, the economy is getting bad, but that does not mean we can steal from people or commit other crimes, evil is not justified by hardships

Stop being afraid you sound harsh Alex. if it's true, shout from the roof top.

 

[benedictaoo]

n/m

 

[Rhamiel]

Stop being afraid you sound harsh Alex. if it's true, shout from the roof top.

I do not want to drive people away from the Church, it is better for people to be inside the Church then outside the Church, they are more likely to hear correct teaching inside the Church, the Sacrements are offered.

It does amaze me how some people just ignore what the Church teaches on this issue, if you believe that the Spirit of God protects the Church from error how can you put your own oppinion above the teachings of the Church, everybody thinks what they are doing is the right thing, some of the most horrible people in history saw themselves are heros and many of the hurtful and abusive people I know in my life will talk about themselves like they are just "normal guys" who "do what they have to do to get by". The cry that poverty is forcing people to use ABC is the same cry the drug dealer and the theif uses, times are hard, i mean if I do not do it someone else will so it does not really matter...

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Oh Please.

Answer my question Shannon.. What does the Church teach us officially about ABC? Are they always evil or only sometimes evil or are they only evil for strong willed ppl and not evil for poor little weaklings?

If any preist tells a couple becuase of ordinary hardships we all face in life, they are free to use any kind of ABC, even abortifacients like pills, shots and implants, you are telling me they are correct?

Give me a serious break.

Get out of this subjective relativism world you are living in. The rules do not change depending on the person.

I posted what the Church teaches in regards to guiding confessors in this area. If that is insufficient for you, it seems likely that nothing will satisfy you. Of course it just seems like you rather enjoy being angry and unsatisfied....but that is likely just a false impression given by the negative tone of nearly all of your posts on this forum.

What a priest tells a couple is between them and their priest...

Remind us again, what is your formal training in Church matters? How many years have you gone to seminary or ponitifcal university??

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Stop being afraid you sound harsh Alex. if it's true, shout from the roof top.

That's right--ignore what Scripture tells us about sharing the Gospel in love and reverence!!!