Birth Control Methods

[All4Christ]

We do not find a single saint endorse sex irrespective of procreation.

No problem here with the saints putting emphasis on procreation and with it being critical. That often is the purpose they discuss.

The saints do however say there is more than one purpose, including St Paul - who incidentally happened to not mention procreation at all.

The marriage prayer talks about chastity, a pure marriage bed, bearing of children and giving to others (paraphrased quickly as I am heading to work). That’s what is endorsed by the saints in relation to this. Chastity. Procreation. Unity. Service.

 

[All4Christ]

Certainly no Father says that //pleasure// is one of the God-given purposes of sex.

Agreed.

 

[abacabb3]

No problem here with the saints putting emphasis on procreation and with it being critical. That often is the purpose they discuss.

The saints do however say there is more than one purpose, including St Paul - who incidentally happened to not mention procreation at all.

The marriage prayer talks about chastity, a pure marriage bed, bearing of children and giving to others (paraphrased quickly as I am heading to work). That’s what is endorsed by the saints in relation to this. Chastity. Procreation. Unity. Service.

Yes, the saints endorse many things. It is consistent if they are all combined ideals, none exclusive of the other. It is inconsistent to divide them. Hence birth control methods radically divorce the several God-honoring aspects in which marital relations may rightfully be enjoyed within marriage.

 

[All4Christ]

Hence birth control methods radically divorce the several God-honoring aspects in which marital relations may rightfully be enjoyed within marriage.

Agreed that birth control methods radically divorces God-honoring aspects wherein marital relations may be rightfully enjoyed.

While I maintain that chastity also is a purpose of marital relations ordained by God (as is outlined in Scripture), we must always be open to having children, and consider it to be one of the greatest treasures God can give. Children are a natural fruit from marital relations - and using birth control prevents that.

 

[whatisinausername]

Hope I am not intruding... but as a Catholic we believe birth control as medication is different from avoiding having children.

Meanwhile, most families at Church have 2-3 children when their grandparents had 15.
Things that make you go hmmm.

 

[abacabb3]

Hope I am not intruding... but as a Catholic we believe birth control as medication is different from avoiding having children.

Meanwhile, most families at Church have 2-3 children when their grandparents had 15.
Things that make you go hmmm.

Well, even the natural family planning thing is really not traditional, as it is an intentional frustration of the procreative act. Yet, I think pretty much any EO priest would permit it economically, please correct me otherwise resident clergy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, even the natural family planning thing is really not traditional, as it is an intentional frustration of the procreative act. Yet, I think pretty much any EO priest would permit it economically, please correct me otherwise resident clergy.

it’d depend on the person. yes, it is the preferred method though.

 

[ArmyMatt]

what is allowable is up to the bishops, so they’d be the ones to ask.

 

[rusmeister]

what is allowable is up to the bishops, so they’d be the ones to ask.

It seems that in practice, the bishops allow everything. I see next to nothing to assure me that any kind of standard is really being upheld. I don’t see everything, of course, but judging by the fruits of what I do see, either most people don’t bother asking their bishops most of the time, or else very often the bishops and priests quickly cave on anything parishioners want. In any event, I don’t see the philosophy of our teachings being applied. If it were, then priests would be telling parishioners that birth prevention goes against our teachings in general. I grant exceptions, that certainly there are priests who do hold the line of standards and make sure their parishioners know them, but they tend to be exceptions, and when they do, they most often get flak, as Heers is getting, and/or the parishioners go seek out another priest or bishop who will greenlight their desires.
Also, in real terms, bishops simply can’t deal with the large number of people seeking approval of all manner of things, and in practice delegate the question-asking to the local priests.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It seems that in practice, the bishops allow everything. I see next to nothing to assure me that any kind of standard is really being upheld. I don’t see everything, of course, but judging by the fruits of what I do see, either most people don’t bother asking their bishops most of the time, or else very often the bishops and priests quickly cave on anything parishioners want. In any event, I don’t see the philosophy of our teachings being applied. If it were, then priests would be telling parishioners that birth prevention goes against our teachings in general. I grant exceptions, that certainly there are priests who do hold the line of standards and make sure their parishioners know them, but they tend to be exceptions, and when they do, they most often get flak, as Heers is getting, and/or the parishioners go seek out another priest or bishop who will greenlight their desires.
Also, in real terms, bishops simply can’t deal with the large number of people seeking approval of all manner of things, and in practice delegate the question-asking to the local priests.

well, the fact that the practice is abused is a different issue. that doesn’t change that according to the canons, the determination of applying what is allowable does rest with them, and then should be executed by his priests and deacons.

 

[All4Christ]

It seems that in practice, the bishops allow everything. I see next to nothing to assure me that any kind of standard is really being upheld. I don’t see everything, of course, but judging by the fruits of what I do see, either most people don’t bother asking their bishops most of the time, or else very often the bishops and priests quickly cave on anything parishioners want. In any event, I don’t see the philosophy of our teachings being applied. If it were, then priests would be telling parishioners that birth prevention goes against our teachings in general. I grant exceptions, that certainly there are priests who do hold the line of standards and make sure their parishioners know them, but they tend to be exceptions, and when they do, they most often get flak, as Heers is getting, and/or the parishioners go seek out another priest or bishop who will greenlight their desires.
Also, in real terms, bishops simply can’t deal with the large number of people seeking approval of all manner of things, and in practice delegate the question-asking to the local priests.

There certainly are times where they say no. I can think of multiple times when our priest told us “no” when seeking guidance, based off of the teaching of the bishop and the Church fathers. We didn’t go to the bishop directly - we went to our priest.

One example is the other side of this topic - what is acceptable in order to procreate when it doesn’t naturally. The answer pretty much ruled out all the remaining medical options available, as we exhausted the ones acceptable to the Church. It isn’t always easy to accept No, but it was very important to find out the answer.

 

[ArmyMatt]

* I know you said there are exceptions, but this is relevant in that my bishop is also Fr Matt’s bishop.

you’re under His Beatitude?

 

[All4Christ]

you’re under His Beatitude?

Apparently I was wrong - I thought you were under Bishop Mark.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Apparently I was wrong - I thought you were under Bishop Mark.

no, but he is one of my favorite bishops. I was his acting subdeacon a few times while in seminary.

 

[abacabb3]

what is allowable is up to the bishops, so they’d be the ones to ask.

That's a non sequitur, no one was debating whether the Bishops are tasked with applying the canons are not. The issue is whether they should be and that is a topic of conversation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's a non sequitur, no one was debating whether the Bishops are tasked with applying the canons are not. The issue is whether they should be and that is a topic of conversation.

it’s not a non sequiur. they are the only ones who can answer the question. what they should or shouldn’t be allowing is what they must answer for, therefore they are the only ones who can answer.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Apparently I was wrong - I thought you were under Bishop Mark.

also, sidebar, but if you want to get His Eminence going, bring up the intertestamental period of Israel. he loves that stuff.

 

[ArmyMatt]

next he stops by your parish, bring it up, open some popcorn, and enjoy.

 

[abacabb3]

it’s not a non sequiur. they are the only ones who can answer the question. what they should or shouldn’t be allowing is what they must answer for, therefore they are the only ones who can answer.

Father, with all due respect, this is a dodge. We have the capacity of weighing moral issues as a matter of conversation. As I already said, we already know bishops apply the canons. Additionally, we also know that there are a lot of "bad eggs," bishops flat-out serving with Roman Catholics (OCU in Ukraine, EP has had more than a few vesper services and such), so simply appealing to the bishop really does not address the issue. There is the issue of simple ethics, is it right or wrong, and sadly our bishops being mere mortal often miss the mark.

And so, the point of this thread is to discuss what that mark even is--simply saying the bishop will decide really is not the point at issue.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Father, with all due respect, this is a dodge. We have the capacity of weighing moral issues as a matter of conversation. As I already said, we already know bishops apply the canons. Additionally, we also know that there are a lot of "bad eggs," bishops flat-out serving with Roman Catholics (OCU in Ukraine, EP has had more than a few vesper services and such), so simply appealing to the bishop really does not address the issue. There is the issue of simple ethics, is it right or wrong, and sadly our bishops being mere mortal often miss the mark.

And so, the point of this thread is to discuss what that mark even is--simply saying the bishop will decide really is not the point at issue.

it’s not a dodge. we have spoken quite at length about this here and in other threads concerning birth control. you said you can’t fathom how methods other than natural family planning are allowable. well, no offense, but who cares what you (or I, for that matter) can or cannot fathom? I simply stated where the answer lies, because the Church has put this charge in the hands of the bishops.