Bill Johnson's Theology and Movement Examined Biblically.

[DaveM]

 

[Pavel Mosko]

OK started listening. It's a lot more fair and even handed than I expected!

I've had some issues with the Prophetic/Apostolic Movement. Lots of problems. What I've heard about Bill Johnson from some sources I respect, like the late Nabeel Qureshi, Johnson and his church has a lot more going for them than most folks in that movement!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I'm less than a third way through the video. I've heard some stuff I agree with and the other half of stuff I would nit pick.

But "Biblically" speaking, I think the movement has problems especially on the issue of prophecy. This is something, I mentioned in a thread last month.


There is a rule of thumb often cited by folks like Joyner that due to problems concerning experience and maturity there often is only a 70% accuracy rate on prophecy (In those situations when they can actually be tested, because many of times they are very general with nothing specific that can be checked.). That kind of reasoning is very problematic if you consider a number of passages: 1) Saint Paul in an epistle mentions we have a better covenant in every way than the OT one, 2) in the OT however, Samuel's "Word were said to have never fallen to the ground". 3) Besides the ones in the Pentateuch that mandate 100% accuracy for a word. 4 People often cite Jonah and Nineveh but even there are some extenuating circumstances. The word for destroy also means overturn in Hebrew so Nineveh repenting could be said of fulfilling that secondary meaning.


So far to me the only thing we have better as far as the new covenant goes on the narrow subject of prophecy is there is no threat for stoning! But I do think this is an issue. Many people quote the verse of

2 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


And apply it to the NT (which is good), but often are very dismissive of those OT verses that mandate prophetic accuracy and so on. The real irony is when that verse was written it was speaking about the OT, because the NT was currently being written and would take 3 centuries later to be canonized and called scripture by the early christians (the books were always called by their author and not "scripture" even though they were regarded as being inspired etc.).

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The teaching that Jesus heals all the time is a horrible teaching. Great in theory, but awful in practice. That sort of thing, when applied to other areas of Faith really led me to get burn out from the Faith movement and seek more balanced pastures elsewhere. But if you pay attention, Faith leaders themselves do not actually live up to this sort of preaching. (People like Ken Hagin and some other tend to die from illnesses that resist being healed!)

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I very much agree with what the speaker says about "The Full Counsel of God". And it reminds me of some stuff, I've Blogged about.


Today’s Soft Marcionism 2 (from an older Wall post of mine)

I realized in writing my first entry griping about the Low regard that people have for the Old Testament I did not really flesh out my reasons for calling such people “Marcionite” in their attitude. Marcion was the first person to really make a theological system of the Old Testament vs. the New Testament. Some of the old Gnostics did have some ideas like that but they were not that nearly crystallized. Some of the Gnostics for instance could see some positive things in the Old Testament. For instance, concerning the Fall of Man in the book of Genesis, many Gnostics saw this in positive terms much like Latter Day Saints that followed them. In Mormon terms this was a “Fall Forward”., and the Gnostics would agree but frame it as the Serpent bringing man Gnosis (enlightenment) that would free him from the evil power of the Demiurge Creator God.

Marcion, however constructed a much more simplistic theological system that thoroughly equated the material of the Old Testament with something that was consistently bad or evil, while that of the New Testament as universally good. And strangely it is this kind of oversimplified dichotomist thinking where the Similarities between Marcionites and some theologically impoverished Christians come in. Because many Christians can have a lop-sided view of the Old Testament. It’s like these people took what saint Paul said in the 3rd chapter of Romans describing how the Law was put their by God to bring us to Christ (by showing us we cannot fulfill it in its entirety). And basically, ignored and forgot everything else that saint Paul said regarding the Old Testament! Where they seem to equate everything out of the Old Testament in a knee jerk way “as legalism”. Such a picture is not even true to the much of the work of Saint Paul let alone the other apostles. For it is saint Paul in the book of Hebrews that mentions that “the Gospel” was preached to the Old Testament believers. The Exodus for instance is a Type and Shadow of the Gospel. And Likewise, many of the other heroes of the old Testament likewise give us lessons in regards to the Gospel.
Saint Paul also derives his philosophy of ministry from the Old Testament. For Him the Old Testament was a work that showed God’s intention for humanity and the Church. Like many of the rabbis of his day, Saint Paul could draw forth abstract principles from seemingly obscure verses that many today would see as being dated and obsolete.
1 Corinthians 9
3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don’t we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who lack the right to not work for a living?
7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk? 8 Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.

 

[Alithis]

All i know is that when scripture says the body is built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets ..it meanscthe old Testament prophets whosecwritingsvthe 12 apostles studied in prayer and taught from.

The apostles and The prophets.

Not any guy that wanders along today calling themselves an apostle or a prophet.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I finished the main presentation of the video, but skipped the Q & A. I agree with the speaker on Fake healing, and prophesying out of your own imagination, and seen that sort of thing myself.


One big issue the Speaker doesn't raise is the nature of "the Apostolic Movement" itself. That movement came from Bill Hamon of Christian International. It is a interpretation of Church History that is largely ahistorical. But Bill Johnson is another reasons why it and its unofficial theology is problematic. You have people who believe they are "Foundational Gifts" teaching on the nature of the Church, the Gospel etc. even though they have many misconceptions about those things.

 

[lismore]

There is a rule of thumb often cited by folks like Joyner that due to problems concerning experience and maturity there often is only a 70% accuracy rate on prophecy (In those situations when they can actually be tested, because many of times they are very general with nothing specific that can be checked.).

Charismatic fortune cookies!

When God gives a genuine word it's 100% accurate, pure and powerful to be the extent of being the most reliable thing you'll ever hear.

 

[jiminpa]

I see problems with Bill Johnson and the guy "exposing" him. But I'll go a step further and ask who other than God has a perfect theology. This guy is off base, Bill Johnson is off base, I'm off base, (I don't know where, but I am), the Calvinists who claim to be the keepers of true doctrine aren't even on the field, so no one would would be found blameless under this guy's microscope, except himself because he wouldn't recognize his own faults or he would correct them.

 

[lismore]

I see problems with Bill Johnson and the guy "exposing" him. But I'll go a step further and ask who other than God has a perfect theology. This guy is off base, Bill Johnson is off base, I'm off base, (I don't know where, but I am), the Calvinists who claim to be the keepers of true doctrine aren't even on the field, so no one would would be found blameless under this guy's microscope, except himself because he wouldn't recognize his own faults or he would correct them.

Several times in the New Testament it mentions 'sound doctrine'. You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1).

So I disagree strongly with what you are saying. If anyone is 'off base' they should keep quiet. Sound doctrine should be taught. Leaders who are teaching false doctrine must not be defended or tolerated.

We are to be like the Bereans and test everything according to the word and see if the new teaching is indeed sound doctrine.

What Bill Johnson is teaching is clearly not sound doctrine.

God Bless

 

[Alithis]

Several times in the New Testament it mentions 'sound doctrine'. You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1).

So I disagree strongly with what you are saying. If anyone is 'off base' they should keep quiet. Sound doctrine should be taught. Leaders who are teaching false doctrine must not be defended or tolerated.

We are to be like the Bereans and test everything according to the word and see if the new teaching is indeed sound doctrine.

What Bill Johnson is teaching is clearly not sound doctrine.

God Bless

I can honestly say i no longer know what bill and bethal is teaching these days.
I know from a decade back.. And got delivered. These days i can't say i know or want to know.
The very fact that people keep following people and pay them for the privilage of following them is just disturbing

 

[hislegacy]

All i know is that when scripture says the body is built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets ..it meanscthe old Testament prophets whosecwritingsvthe 12 apostles studied in prayer and taught from.

The apostles and The prophets.

Not any guy that wanders along today calling themselves an apostle or a prophet.

QFT

 

[jiminpa]

Several times in the New Testament it mentions 'sound doctrine'. You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1).

So I disagree strongly with what you are saying. If anyone is 'off base' they should keep quiet. Sound doctrine should be taught. Leaders who are teaching false doctrine must not be defended or tolerated.

We are to be like the Bereans and test everything according to the word and see if the new teaching is indeed sound doctrine.

What Bill Johnson is teaching is clearly not sound doctrine.

God Bless

Well, then we should all remain totally silent, because we are all human. I challenge you to show me any teacher with flawless doctrine that never varies one bit from scripture, not one tiny bit, ever.

 

[lismore]

Well, then we should all remain totally silent, because we are all human. I challenge you to show me any teacher with flawless doctrine that never varies one bit from scripture, not one tiny bit, ever.

I quoted from one in Titus 2:1.

 

[jiminpa]

I quoted from one in Titus 2:1.

I understand that sound doctrine is important, but how powerful of a microscope do we put each other under? What hairs are important enough to split? Do we make an international case out of what the Bible doesn't specify? If a teacher points us to Jesus, but has a fault in his doctrine, do we throw out our growth too?

 

[worshipjunkie]

The teaching that Jesus heals all the time is a horrible teaching. Great in theory, but awful in practice. That sort of thing, when applied to other areas of Faith really led me to get burn out from the Faith movement and seek more balanced pastures elsewhere. But if you pay attention, Faith leaders themselves do not actually live up to this sort of preaching. (People like Ken Hagin and some other tend to die from illnesses that resist being healed!)

They all do tend to die from something, don't they?


In all seriousness, this was a huge stumbling block for me. I went to a Pentecostal church that pushed physical healing. I remember one time I was very ill and went to the ER and they told me that God would have healed me if I had waited one more hour (I was a teenager at the time and it was my parents' call anyways). They used the verse (among others) "By His stripes we are healed" to say that we had a right to expect healing under the new covenant. As someone with health problems, it was part of why I fell away for a LONG time. I wonder if groups like Bethel tend to attract those from a more well off, healthy demographic anyways. I can't imagine a poor or ill person feeling comfortable there.

 

[lismore]

I understand that sound doctrine is important, but how powerful of a microscope do we put each other under? What hairs are important enough to split? Do we make an international case out of what the Bible doesn't specify? If a teacher points us to Jesus, but has a fault in his doctrine, do we throw out our growth too?

Hello Jim. So, we are to lay scripture aside and follow the odd teachings of self-appointed 'leaders' just because they mention 'Jesus' in their sermons?

The words of the Apostle could well describe what you're talking about:

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough (2 Cor 11:4).

Islam points people to Jesus, but it's not the Jesus of the bible.

Some of what 'Bill Johnson' said in those clips was so far from the scriptures as to be frightening.

God Bless

 

[jiminpa]

Hello Jim. So, we are to lay scripture aside and follow the odd teachings of self-appointed 'leaders' just because they mention 'Jesus' in their sermons?

The words of the Apostle could well describe what you're talking about:

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough (2 Cor 11:4).

Islam points people to Jesus, but it's not the Jesus of the bible.

Some of what 'Bill Johnson' said in those clips was so far from the scriptures as to be frightening.

God Bless

I didn't say we throw out scripture. I believe in quite the opposite, but it takes a good bit for me to throw out the entirety of someone's teaching for part of it being wrong.

 

[lismore]

I didn't say we throw out scripture. I believe in quite the opposite, but it takes a good bit for me to throw out the entirety of someone's teaching for part of it being wrong.

That's what makes false teachings so dangerous- they contain some part of the truth. But we have the plumbline, the word of God, by which to measure things. When the truth of the gospel has been laid out so clearly, should we accept 'leaders' whose teaching is at best partially right? If a leader can't teach truth but must be kept in leadership for PC reasons, why doesn't he just read out scripture? God Bless

 

[jiminpa]

That's what makes false teachings so dangerous- they contain some part of the truth. But we have the plumbline, the word of God, by which to measure things. When the truth of the gospel has been laid out so clearly, should we accept 'leaders' whose teaching is at best partially right? If a leader can't teach truth but must be kept in leadership for PC reasons, why doesn't he just read out scripture? God Bless

Even then, by amplifying some scripture and ignoring others a teacher can mislead.

Cessationists love that in Acts 2 everyone heard in their own dialect, and to select verses from 1 Cor 14, while avoiding, (forbidding), the verses in the same chapter that point out that there are tongues that only God understands and that Paul prohibits the forbidding of tongues. They love to point out that tongues and prophesy will cease, but will not see 4 verses later in the same thought that they will end when we know as we are known and see face to face.

You can teach straight from the scriptures and still lie, so if someone is benevolently imperfect, but inspires me, I will listen, and consider, and keep what is consistent with the context of the whole of scripture, to the best of my ability.