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Bill Johnson

sunlover1

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This sort of thing is why I posted the quotes I did. I was very impressed with Rob Bowman's book, The Word-Faith Controversy. I am no fan of WoF. I think some of its doctrines and practices are unscriptural and potentially harmful to physical and emotional health. I can document some of its leaders from "my time" (the 1980s) making false prophecies and having false visions. But none of that makes any of those persons heretics, and certainly does not make the movement as a whole heretical.

Bowman characterized it as "a mess," and I think that's still valid. His reason for preferring that description was that their doctrines are inconsistent and disorganized. The official Statements of Faith of their ministries are usually fine. In the heat of preaching, they can easily say wacky or heretical things. Their books are often adapted from transcripts of spoken sermons, so the same stuff can end up in print. At other times, you could easily hear or read the same preacher address the same topic in a completely sane and orthodox way.

Walter Martin was a well-known apologist who was the first head of the Christian Research Institute. (The current head is the vastly inferior Hank Hanegraaff.) Bowman worked at CRI for a time. Virtually anyone would recognize Martin as an orthodox believer, with perhaps a few nonstandard beliefs, certainly not a heretic. Bowman used Martin as an example to demonstrate that if someone says, "Jesus worked His miracles and performed His earthly ministry as a man dependent on the Father (and/or the Spirit)," you cannot properly extrapolate that to mean that the person who said that believes Jesus stopped being God, and that therefore the person is a heretic. If the person also explicitly says that Jesus remains eternally God, the *most* one can honestly claim is that the person is inconsistent or unclear.
Thanks for clarifying that for all involved.
I don't like to sound ignorant, but I am not well read on WOF or really much of anything church or denomination related.
However, I do believe that "faith" is/can be the one deciding factor in
whether circumstances change or remain the same.
Faith in GOD that is, faith that God is true to His Word and that He truly does
"hear us" (if we pray according to HIS Will) and if He hears us, that we know
that we have what we've asked.
I also believe that we have much more say in things than we know or use.
(authority in the spiritual world)
A LOT of people are fearful of such a statement because they THINK that it
undermines God, as in trying to "usurp" His authority/power etc., not realizing
that God Himself has called us to be CO laborers WITH Him.
So I am betting that the WOFers are onto something but that they're too
..corinthianish lol.
"Name it claim it" is probably just faith on steroids (manmade) Man taking
God's truths and adding some of their own carnality to it perhaps.
Same with any group, any time.
Legalists have PART of it right, but they go out there and hunt down men
of God smh.
Grace without limits have MUCH of it right, but they mistake grace for license.
So balance is key, and we really need to know GOD!
Anything less is just a club , men trying to make the cut.

imo

One question.
What is the one book that you've read, that really
helped you to "see" God better?
(besides the Bible)

Thanks in advance.
 
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sunlover1

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heheh.. appreciate your humour esp re: the tongues debate at the dinner table.. that gave me a good chuckle.
The way I see it however, is that if they are believers, they need to know there's more.
They have Bibles.
They know what they say. I can't shove gifts down their throats lol.
TBH, most Christians do not want to hear about gifts anyhow, becasue
they're scared of the supernatural.
God's able to deal with my friends and family and if He wants me to speak
to them, He moves and I do what He tells me to.
He's given me prophesies, WOK's and dreams/visions, as well as doing
miracles in the lives of a couple with me being the gap stander.
Cool thing is that when HE does it, it turns out with them weeping and
thanking you. :bow:

The Lord saw what my family would do to me when I told them about the dreams He gave me and how He was teaching me to interpret them. At that time it had not dawned on me for a moment that they, (those in my fam who are Christian people) would find dreams & dream interpreting to be non scriptural.. huh? Nor did I expect an entire family to declare that what happened to me as a child to have never happened. It took the Lord telling me Himself that I was actually being persecuted for me to clue in to the fact that indeed, this is persecution... Later on as things snowballed I had nooo problems believing it. ha!
Well, I have no family to speak of and it took me a long time to come
to terms with that but I now realize that it's all good.
I can pray for them, yet I don't have to be caught up in the world junk

Thing is, who's going to educate the body if we don't? Not their church if they go to a church which doesn't believe in the gifts.
God's the only one who can. Have you seen a tongues thread? ^_^
We sometimes try to "be" the Holy Spirit, but if we ask God He's
happy to tell us how to proceed.
Sometimes ours is just to "be there".
Sometimes He likes to show out through us.
:)
IMO

I'd start a thread on this topic but I fear all the charismatic haters would show up and trample us underfoot... Now that fear is wisdom, not the fear of man (or is it? :scratch:)
bawk?
^_^
No idea.
 
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NorrinRadd

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...One question.
What is the one book that you've read, that really
helped you to "see" God better?
(besides the Bible)

Thanks in advance.

Y'know, I don't think I can answer that, especially the "one" part.

Gordon Fee's "How to..." book series was really helpful in my approach to Scripture. And his Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God was a very good book on the Holy Spirit in Paul's writings. Several of Malcolm Smith's tape series were helpful when I was transitioning out of Word-Faith theology and legalistic versions of Pentecostalism, but I was never able to get into his books.
 
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HisSparkPlug

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They have Bibles.
They know what they say. I can't shove gifts down their throats
I wasn't suggesting you "shove gifts" down anyone's throats, lol
They have bibles...well...yes, ok....

Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” - Acts 8:29-31

Just sayin' ;)

TBH, most Christians do not want to hear about gifts anyhow, becasue
they're scared of the supernatural. God's able to deal with my friends and family and if He wants me to speak to them, He moves and I do what He tells me to.
True that we are only to do that which we are led to do. Perhaps the Lord knows they would listen to someone else in lieu of you and He will send them another to do the work.

He's given me prophesies, WOK's and dreams/visions
So you do have dreams and visions? - You'd told me not long ago when I asked that you don't have these at all.

God's the only one who can. Have you seen a tongues thread? ^_^
Lol, yes.. and there is the warning for us to not cast our pearls before swine to be trampled

We sometimes try to "be" the Holy Spirit, but if we ask God He's
happy to tell us how to proceed.
This is true, however, for all the debating some do regarding other God-topics, I can't help but wonder, are all those other arguments/debates the result of how Holy Spirit is advising one to proceed?

Just some food for thought to get you thinking on a deeper level, that's all.

blessings
:)
 
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sunlover1

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So you do have dreams and visions? - You'd told me not long ago when I asked that you don't have these at all.
I used to have a lot of visions and some dreams.
Then no dreams for many years.
Recently i was having dreams again! YAY.
SO exciting lol.


Lol, yes.. and there is the warning for us to not cast our pearls before swine to be trampled

This is true, however, for all the debating some do regarding other God-topics, I can't help but wonder, are all those other arguments/debates the result of how Holy Spirit is advising one to proceed?

Just some food for thought to get you thinking on a deeper level, that's all.

blessings
:)
^_^
Which people are you referring to?
Perhaps their business is between
them and God as well.

Sorry I don't always agree with you.
It's going to happen again too, I can guarantee it.
We're different people and we have different
experiences, no worries. It's all good.
 
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Craig de CrossWise

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...Virtually anyone would recognize Martin as an orthodox believer, with perhaps a few nonstandard beliefs, certainly not a heretic. Bowman used Martin as an example to demonstrate that if someone says, "Jesus worked His miracles and performed His earthly ministry as a man dependent on the Father (and/or the Spirit)," you cannot properly extrapolate that to mean that the person who said that believes Jesus stopped being God, and that therefore the person is a heretic. If the person also explicitly says that Jesus remains eternally God, the *most* one can honestly claim is that the person is inconsistent or unclear.

While I disagree with Martin's stance, he was, at least, consistent in his claim that Jesus retained all divine attributes, yet chose not to exercise the Omni- traits while Incarnate. Johnson, on the other hand, is not teaching that Jesus did not exercise His divine attributes, since Johnson's explicit claims are that Jesus had "no ability", was "unable", etc. even to the point of making the statement, "He had so emptied himself that He was incapable of doing what was required of Him by the Father – without the Father’s help." This implies that Jesus had no divine attributes at all, for if Jesus had merely chosen not to use them, he'd still have the latent ability, though unutilized. This is consistent in the myriad statements Johnson makes, including, "He had NO supernatural capabilities whatsoever!" (all emphasis Johnson's). Certainly, God has supernatural capabilities!

However, there is a way to take his seemingly ambiguous and/or contradictory statements, such as "While Jesus is eternally God, He emptied Himself of divinity and became man..." and harmonizing them. It's the Manifest Sons of God doctrine. Bill Britton, in a booklet titled Tent to Temple, has a subsection titled "A Man in Two Worlds" - essentially, meaning Jesus lived in the eternal world, as well as, separately, in the temporal. In the following, Britton is referencing the 'longer' version of John 3:13, as in the N/KJV, including the final clause "who is in Heaven' (most modern versions omit it (I think erroneously, but that's a whole different subject)):

Jesus told Nicodemus a very strange thing in John 3:13. He said that He was living in heaven at the same time he was living on earth. It was too much for Nicodemus to comprehend, as well as for many of God’s people today. But it was true. Hebrews 10:20 tells us that the Veil that separated heaven and earth was His flesh.

One side of the Veil faced the sanctuary with its candlestick and the priests who ministered daily. This was his earthly existence, living under a skin covering. But the other side of the same veil faced the Holy of Holies and the Skekinah Presence of His Father. So he could say “I do only those things I see my Father do – I say only those things that please Him”. He lived on the earth where men could see him, in an earth body. But in that body He also walked continually in a heavenly place on the other side of the veil. And I see a people who live in “tent” bodies which have been redeemed from the sense realm, a people who walk victoriously because they walk in the spirit. Jesus showed us the way.

Someone adhering to Britton's belief could very easily state, "While Jesus is eternally God, He emptied Himself of divinity and became man..." with the intention of positing an eternal Jesus separate from a non-divine temporal Jesus - two different realms, two different 'Jesuses'. And this is what I believe Johnson is teaching. This accounts for Jesus being "eternally God" (God in the eternal realm) and for Jesus also having "emptied Himself of divinity and became a man (man in the temporal realm).

As I've shown in other quotes used earlier on this thread:

1) Johnson's Jesus did not, in fact, could not receive the title of Christ until baptism (contradicting Luke 2:11), aka, "the anointing." This baptism, aka "the anointing" is also known as the "Christ anointing." In Christian theology, most usually, the term "Christ" denotes divinity. This means, according to Johnson, implicitly, Jesus wasn't 'divine' until baptism. Which accounts for Johnsons' statement, "...The anointing is what linked Jesus, the man, to the divine enabling Him to destroy the works of the devil." So, Johnson's Jesus wasn't actually 'divine' even at baptism, for He was only divine by this "the anointing" 'linking' "Jesus, the man, to the divine"; hence, Jesus was not actually divine at all, as it is "the anointing" that is 'divine'. To see that this is so, it was only "the anointing" that "enabled Him...", which implies that Jesus had "NO supernatural capabilities" without "the anointing, which means He had no divine attributes, latent or otherwise. This is certainly not the doctrine Walter Martin adhered to.

2) In Johnson's theology, others can, and should receive this same "Christ anointing." Carrying this to its logical conclusion, any and everyone receiving this "Christ anointing" should receive the title of Christ, just as Jesus did.

3) This reduces Jesus to a man - just as Johnson asserts above: "He emptied Himself of divinity and became a man."

So, to reiterate, in Johnson's theology, we have a Jesus who is temporally a non-divine man, concurrent with a Jesus who is "eternally God" = Manifested Sons of God teaching.
 
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Craig de CrossWise

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This sort of thing is why I posted the quotes I did. I was very impressed with Rob Bowman's book, The Word-Faith Controversy. I am no fan of WoF. I think some of its doctrines and practices are unscriptural and potentially harmful to physical and emotional health. I can document some of its leaders from "my time" (the 1980s) making false prophecies and having false visions. But none of that makes any of those persons heretics, and certainly does not make the movement as a whole heretical.

Bowman characterized it as "a mess," and I think that's still valid. His reason for preferring that description was that their doctrines are inconsistent and disorganized. The official Statements of Faith of their ministries are usually fine. In the heat of preaching, they can easily say wacky or heretical things. Their books are often adapted from transcripts of spoken sermons, so the same stuff can end up in print. At other times, you could easily hear or read the same preacher address the same topic in a completely sane and orthodox way...

Where Bowman failed is his lack of research into the specifics of some of the individual's Christological teachings (Hagin, Copeland, et al.), the meaning of "the anointing," and attempting to harmonize some of those doctrines that are contradictory. As I've state on another thread on here, Copeland's believe is that God Himself used the "force of [His] faith" in creation, and this informs the rest of his theology:

God did not create the world out of nothing, He used the Force of His Faith.

But, this begs the question: What was this external 'force' (capital "F") that God used? Did God lack the intrinsic power to create? This is the basis for the whole "the anointing" teaching; God himself used "the anointing," according to Copeland and the WoF - not that all adherents necessarily believe that, of course.

From Copeland's own website is info on "the Anointing":

Kenneth Copeland Ministries | Real Help

The word "Christ" is not just another name for Jesus, but a reference to the Anointed and the Anointing that was on Him and in Him. In the same way, the word "Christians" means more than just followers of Jesus. It means "the anointeds." The same yoke-destroying Anointing that was on Jesus is available to you...

No, the word "Christ" (Christos) means Messiah, or "Anointed One" and was an exclusive designation for Jesus. And, "Christians" means Christ followers, and nothing else, in and of itself. Jesus the Christos/Messiah.

And, Copeland's teaching here is very much like Johnson's teaching on this subject, as evidenced by the quotes I've provided on here.
 
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Craig de CrossWise

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I intended to add the following quote from the 2nd century Gnostic book The Gospel of Philip. In this quote, there is a specific distinguishing between water baptism and ‘anointing’ Note:chrisma is the Greek transliterated word meaning anointing, not chrism. The “anointing” here is identified as the mark of a Christian (as opposed to baptism) rather than true Christian conversion upon which one receives the Holy Spirit indwelling:

The chrism is superior to baptism. For from the chrism we were called ‘Christians’, not from baptism. Christ also was (so) called because of the anointing...

Does this not sound like Johnson?:

Christ is not Jesus’ last name. The word Christ means “Anointed One” or “Messiah.” It [Christ] is a title that points to an experience [Spirit resting upon Him, aka "anointing," after baptism in the Jordan]. It was not sufficient that Jesus be sent from heaven to earth with a title [Christ]. He had to receive the anointing [“Christ anointing” resulting in Christ title] in an experience [Spirit resting upon Him] to accomplish what the Father desired.

The word anointing means “to smear.” The Holy Spirit is the oil of God that was smeared all over Jesus at His water baptism. The name Jesus Christ implies that Jesus is the One smeared with the Holy Spirit [after water baptism in the Jordan].
 
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HisSparkPlug

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I used to have a lot of visions and some dreams.
Then no dreams for many years.
Recently i was having dreams again! YAY.
SO exciting lol.
That's good to hear. Papa says dreams are going to play a big part in these end times.. And obviously, for His Spirit to be poured out per the book of Acts with dreams & visions to His people. I've often wondered what shape a person is in spiritually if they do not have dreams at all.. that's not to say something is wrong with them, but it's a good question to find the answer to, amen?

^_^
Which people are you referring to?
Perhaps their business is between
them and God as well.
"Business"? ..hmm, that's a funny retort to make, seems defensive. I'm merely providing food for thought. Should you chose to dismiss thinking on it and inquiring of the Lord that's your choice fully. I know what I would do personally, because I am inquisitive and want to do as Abba desires. But that's me & my train of thought. I'm not sure why you'd suppose I think we were at all alike besides a few foundational beliefs. I've never thought so. I've simply given you material to meditate on before the Lord. You're free to take what you want and leave the rest, I need no explanation of how different we are, lol.
:kiss:
I'll let y'all get back to your debating over God's servant now.
God bless
 
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sunlover1

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That's good to hear. Papa says dreams are going to play a big part in these end times.. And obviously, for His Spirit to be poured out per the book of Acts with dreams & visions to His people. I've often wondered what shape a person is in spiritually if they do not have dreams at all.. that's not to say something is wrong with them, but it's a good question to find the answer to, amen?
Interesting, sure. No idea why some dream more than others :)
I would guess that they're in good shape.
IIRC, ONE of the reasons for God giving us dreams is that we get so
busy during the day that we can't hear Him.
Something like that. But I'm not worried since I spend a great
deal of time in conversation with the Father during my waking hours :)

"Business"? ..hmm, that's a funny retort to make, seems defensive. I'm merely providing food for thought. Should you chose to dismiss thinking on it and inquiring of the Lord that's your choice fully. I know what I would do personally, because I am inquisitive and want to do as Abba desires.
It made no sense since I'd just said:
...if we ask God He's happy to tell us how to proceed.

No worries.
Have a good day.
 
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simonthezealot

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Craig I just wanted to welcome you here to the forums and thank you for the well thought out and detailed responses, these issues are critical to understand and dangerous if left untouched. You speak with grace and are well studied on these topics.
Thanks much.
 
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I heard a gentleman state that those that believe in the doctrine of cessation interpret God's Holy Word in relation to that which they have not experienced (gifts of the Holy Sprit) and those that believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit interpret God's Holy Word in relation to what they have experienced (gifts of the Holy Spirit).
 
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Craig de CrossWise

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Craig I just wanted to welcome you here to the forums and thank you for the well thought out and detailed responses, these issues are critical to understand and dangerous if left untouched. You speak with grace and are well studied on these topics.
Thanks much.

Thanks for the compliment. I try to speak with grace, though I fail at times, and it's sometimes difficult to interpret tone. I endeavor to write each comment in an emotionally neutral tone.
 
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simonthezealot

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I heard a gentleman state that those that believe in the doctrine of cessation interpret God's Holy Word in relation to that which they have not experienced (gifts of the Holy Sprit) and those that believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit interpret God's Holy Word in relation to what they have experienced (gifts of the Holy Spirit).

And what if your a partial cessationist, who has experienced the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
 
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Craig de CrossWise

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I heard a gentleman state that those that believe in the doctrine of cessation interpret God's Holy Word in relation to that which they have not experienced (gifts of the Holy Sprit) and those that believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit interpret God's Holy Word in relation to what they have experienced (gifts of the Holy Spirit).

I'm sure that's true on some cases, but, I myself interpret the Scriptures to teach continuationism. The question is just what that entails. For me, quite simply:

11 All these [gifts of the Spirit] are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. (1 Cor 12:11, NIV)

Gordon Fee does an excellent job of 1 Cor 12-14 in his commentary on First Corinthians.
 
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sunlover1

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Thanks for the compliment. I try to speak with grace, though I fail at times, and it's sometimes difficult to interpret tone. I endeavor to write each comment in an emotionally neutral tone.
I welcome you too Craig.
It is hard to interpret tone.
Some are very good at communicating neutrality though,
I'd say you do a good job. :)

And what if your a partial cessationist, who has experienced the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
Which gifts have you experienced? :)
 
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NorrinRadd

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I'm sure that's true on some cases, but, I myself interpret the Scriptures to teach continuationism. The question is just what that entails. For me, quite simply:



Gordon Fee does an excellent job of 1 Cor 12-14 in his commentary on First Corinthians.

IIRC, he adapted much of that material for the comparable section in God's Empowering Presence. Very useful indeed. Not exactly in keeping with Pentecostal tradition at several points, but pretty solidly exegetical.
 
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sunlover1

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Y'know, I don't think I can answer that, especially the "one" part.

Gordon Fee's "How to..." book series was really helpful in my approach to Scripture. And his Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God was a very good book on the Holy Spirit in Paul's writings. Several of Malcolm Smith's tape series were helpful when I was transitioning out of Word-Faith theology and legalistic versions of Pentecostalism, but I was never able to get into his books.
I think I have a couple of Fee books.
Will have to dig them up (kindle) I'm
good at finding books and then poor
at reading them past the first couple
pages...

Is that the only book you've read on The Spirit?

Studying Scripture alone seems to have put me
at a disadvantage when folks are discussing
such fancy doctrines that are, imo kind of ...
unimportant, in the overall scheme of things.

Perhaps that's a 'charismatical' ^_^ fault of mine.
I may have made up a word.

But it would seem to me that we have been
a bit too heavy handed with labels.
Maybe some things are better left alone.
 
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