Bikinis & neurology

[URA]

"...women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness--with good works." -- 2 Timothy 2
​

In this short video, Jason Evert discusses the findings of a Princeton University study on men's brains, when they see pictures of women in various amounts of clothing. The way the brains react to seeing women in 2/10th of a second is not voluntary; it's still reflex at that point. (Jumping back from a ball flying at you isn't a choice; same goes for neurological reactions within such a short amount of time).

As the study found, before a man has seen a woman long enough to make a conscious decision, his brain already associates women in bikinis with 1st person verbs (I push, I take), and modestly dressed women with 3rd person verbs (she walks, she talks, she's in control).

I really appreciate Jason Evert's style, in this & all his talks. He repeatedly mentions that telling women to dress modestly isn't to cover them up because they're dirty or anything negative; it's to free people to see you as more than a body. The woman's body is not meant to be covered up because it's bad; it's created by God to be exceptionally good! Your body's just so good that it distracts from the rest of who you are. Only in marriage, where the man already knows all of who you are & has a lifelong committment to you, should your body be shown in all the splendor & glory that God put into your body.

The video goes into much more detail about the study, I just wanted to mention some of it for those of you who can't watch a video right now.

On a personal note, I'd like to mention that I look for women who dress modestly when I'm looking for someone I'd want to date. I'm more comfortable around a woman when I'm not constantly pushing away temptations; as much as I try to avoid lustful thoughts, my body will still react in a certain way when I see more of a woman than I should, and I want to avoid that conflict for someone I want to date. I'm not sure if I really said what I wanted to say in this last paragraph (some things are tricky to put into words), so please don't read too much into it, just see the general idea that modesty can help decent men avoid temptations that they really don't want to have around you.

May God bless us all, through Jason Evert & all those who try to help us on our path towards Heaven!

Update: Here's a few great videos that discuss modesty in broader terms; considering what the comments have been like, I thought this would be helpful to making the conversation more useful. It's about 12 minutes to watch both of these, and I think they really explain modesty in a very good way, at the very least, as a good conversation starter:

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.". --1 Corinthians 6​

 

[DennisTate]

This may be relevant somehow......

"The corpus callosum and its relation to sex has been a subject of debate in the scientific and lay communities for over a century. Initial research in the early 20th century claimed the corpus to be different in size between men and women. That research was in turn questioned, and ultimately gave way to more advanced imaging techniques that appeared to refute earlier correlations. The new advent of physiologic based imaging has altered the paradigm dramatically, with the relationship between gender and the corpus callosum becoming a subject of increasing numbers of studies in recent years. Both neurologist Roger Gorski of the University of California at Los Angeles and author/brain surgeon Leonard Schlain, M.D. have stated that women have 30% more connections to the left and right hemispheres than men."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Corpus_callosum&oldid=427333904

 

[Brightmoon]

"...women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness--with good works." -- 2 Timothy 2
​

In this short video, Jason Evert discusses the findings of a Princeton University study on men's brains, when they see pictures of women in various amounts of clothing. The way the brains react to seeing women in 2/10th of a second is not voluntary; it's still reflex at that point. (Jumping back from a ball flying at you isn't a choice; same goes for neurological reactions within such a short amount of time).

As the study found, before a man has seen a woman long enough to make a conscious decision, his brain already associates women in bikinis with 1st person verbs (I push, I take), and modestly dressed women with 3rd person verbs (she walks, she talks, she's in control).

I really appreciate Jason Evert's style, in this & all his talks. He repeatedly mentions that telling women to dress modestly isn't to cover them up because they're dirty or anything negative; it's to free people to see you as more than a body. The woman's body is not meant to be covered up because it's bad; it's created by God to be exceptionally good! Your body's just so good that it distracts from the rest of who you are. Only in marriage, where the man already knows all of who you are & has a lifelong committment to you, should your body be shown in all the splendor & glory that God put into your body.

The video goes into much more detail about the study, I just wanted to mention some of it for those of you who can't watch a video right now.

On a personal note, I'd like to mention that I look for women who dress modestly when I'm looking for someone I'd want to date. I'm more comfortable around a woman when I'm not constantly pushing away temptations; as much as I try to avoid lustful thoughts, my body will still react in a certain way when I see more of a woman than I should, and I want to avoid that conflict for someone I want to date. I'm not sure if I really said what I wanted to say in this last paragraph (some things are tricky to put into words), so please don't read too much into it, just see the general idea that modesty can help decent men avoid temptations that they really don't want to have around you.

May God bless us all, through Jason Evert & all those who try to help us on our path towards Heaven!

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.". --1 Corinthians 6​

You do realize that western civilization men are socialized to think of women as objects , prey or victims . Guys are told to tomcat around but the women they have sex with are told they’re [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s . Men are told that No! means maybe . Theyre told if she’s drunk go get some not caring that she might not want sex. Even rape victims are asked what they were wearing as if that was relevant to being assaulted as if the clothes are responsible . They don’t ask what you wearing if the creep attacks you and steals your purse. You’re being attacked in both scenarios.

It taught my two boys that no means no. That if she’s drunk or high don’t victimize her further. And don’t use women’s bodies to touch with if you’re just horny .

 

[spiritualchristian7]

When I think of modesty, I always think of Kate Middleton

 

[Brightmoon]

When I think of modesty I think of women in burkas getting hit because they’re immodest . Honestly if I weren’t in my 60s and still had my figure, I’d be in a bikini at the beach. I don’t think there anything wrong with women’s bodies . Go topless in public like our NYC desnudas and I’m fine with it. Breastfeed in public I’m fine with that too. I guess I saw too many National Geographic magazines when I was younger showing naked and near naked people who weren’t ashamed of their bodies. I envied them as my mother was a hysterical prude.

 

[LaSorcia]

I'm all for modesty (in both sexes), and keeping one's body private. But I'm totally against people blaming others for their own temptations and sins.

And modesty isn't just about covering one's body. It includes not bragging about one's achievements or ostentatiously displaying one's wealth.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Im not sure how I feel about this. On one hand scripture does state that clothing should be modest. You cant get around that.

But both sexes are geared to be sexual in nature. It's not just men that can have an overly active sexuality, but women can too. Yet most of the time its, women shouldnt dress such and such so as to not tempt women.

People just need to take responsibility for their own behaviors and actions. In society today it is near impossible to go anywhere and not see someone of the opposite sex dressed in a very revealing manner. I understand the OP is specifically referenxing Christian women but even then, if a man wants to fantasize about a women, no manner of clothes she is wearing will stop him.

 

[Silmarien]

I do think it's better for both sexes to dress appropriately, but it does need to be pointed out that body type can play a role in what we perceive as modest or immodest clothing. If a woman has large breasts, normal clothing is going to fit her differently than they would someone with a smaller bust. Two women can be wearing the same exact outfit, and one will be seen as modest, and the other as overtly sexualized. There's not much people in the latter category can do to come across as modest short of surgery.

 

[VMaeLove]

Adam and Eve did not cover up until sin twisted their view of what God calls wonderful.

 

[HermanNeutics13]

"...women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness--with good works." -- 2 Timothy 2
​

In this short video, Jason Evert discusses the findings of a Princeton University study on men's brains, when they see pictures of women in various amounts of clothing. The way the brains react to seeing women in 2/10th of a second is not voluntary; it's still reflex at that point. (Jumping back from a ball flying at you isn't a choice; same goes for neurological reactions within such a short amount of time).

As the study found, before a man has seen a woman long enough to make a conscious decision, his brain already associates women in bikinis with 1st person verbs (I push, I take), and modestly dressed women with 3rd person verbs (she walks, she talks, she's in control).

I really appreciate Jason Evert's style, in this & all his talks. He repeatedly mentions that telling women to dress modestly isn't to cover them up because they're dirty or anything negative; it's to free people to see you as more than a body. The woman's body is not meant to be covered up because it's bad; it's created by God to be exceptionally good! Your body's just so good that it distracts from the rest of who you are. Only in marriage, where the man already knows all of who you are & has a lifelong committment to you, should your body be shown in all the splendor & glory that God put into your body.

The video goes into much more detail about the study, I just wanted to mention some of it for those of you who can't watch a video right now.

On a personal note, I'd like to mention that I look for women who dress modestly when I'm looking for someone I'd want to date. I'm more comfortable around a woman when I'm not constantly pushing away temptations; as much as I try to avoid lustful thoughts, my body will still react in a certain way when I see more of a woman than I should, and I want to avoid that conflict for someone I want to date. I'm not sure if I really said what I wanted to say in this last paragraph (some things are tricky to put into words), so please don't read too much into it, just see the general idea that modesty can help decent men avoid temptations that they really don't want to have around you.

May God bless us all, through Jason Evert & all those who try to help us on our path towards Heaven!

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.". --1 Corinthians 6​

Look at what 2 Timothy 2 actually says. It is more about not dressing in way to show off, it doesn't subscribe an amount of skin that is unacceptable to show.

 

[URA]

Look at what 2 Timothy 2 actually says. It is more about not dressing in way to show off, it doesn't subscribe an amount of skin that is unacceptable to show.

Context is always good to bring up, although I still feel that it fits. Dressing to show off could involve showing off your body, not just jewels & riches.

May God bless us all!

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

So... Did anyone take the time to actually go and read this study? It really says very little. Took a little digging to find, as neither this video nor the first bunch of pop-science articles on it, even bothered to link it or mention its name. This whole story is actually quite ridiculous.

From Agents to Objects: Sexist Attitudes and Neural Responses to Sexualized Targets

So it has 2 components. The first part had a group of 20 women and 27 men, who did word association with pictures and a personality test to test for misogyny (the Ambivalent Sexism Inventory). The former tried to connect pictures with either first or third person verbs. So they found women showed no preference at all, nor did men with low scores for hostile sexism - only in high hostile sexism scores, was a preference shown for first person verbs with sexualised female imagery.

So then, they took a group of 21 men, repeated the Ambivalent Sexism Inventory, and then stuck them in a MRI with imagery being projected. Here again, most showed no difference - except those with higher hostile sexism scores, showed decreased prefrontal activity on being presented witg sexualised imagery. The participants were male college students, and only 3 scored highly for hostile sexism.

So let us review:

Most men showed no markedly different reaction between sexualised women and normal images, in either the association or the fMRI studies. Those that did, already scored highly for Sexism and dehumanisation of women anyway.

The 'dehumanisation' by word association was done in a separate study population from the fMRI scans, so it is hard to draw a correlation. Further, the prefontal cortex has to do with risk assessment, moral judgement and such, beyond just personal relations - so we might just be dealing with a trained reaction in those 3 participants with high sexism scores, perhaps from pornographic usage. They are extrapolating the fMRI ideas from other studies where they tested for dehumanisation of the homeless, but here the participants showed active attraction - so not sure how legitimate this is. They might be suppressing moral qualms or whatnot, we don't actually know why less activity is occuring here in any objective manner.

To reiterate, the positive fMRI findings were in 3 men. The objectification of women occured in a highly sexualised population, college students, and even then, only in those that already showed high levels of Hostile Sexism. How much we can extrapolate from this to older men, whose brains have finished pruning and such, or less sexualised periods of life, is an open question.

Regardless, what these studies showed is that college students who exhibit hostile sexist attitudes, will somewhat depersonalise sexualised women; and extremely provisionally, may exhibit decreased prefrontal cortex activity of dubious significance. The number of subjects in the studies are ridiculously miniscule though, so it is hard to place much significance to their findings anyway.

To sum:

Misogynistic men depersonalise sexualised women. I don't think this is much of a finding to write home about. What correlation you want to draw to modesty, it really is not strongly supported. Most men did not show this response, and if the argument is women should dress modestly to not be objectified by misogynists, it would be hard sell when misogyny is frowned upon in general anyway. External validity to anything about human behaviour in general here, is sorely lacking.

 

[Dave-W]

"...women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness--with good works." -- 2 Timothy 2

A good verse but I hope you realize that "modesty" had nothing to do with sexuality; rather, it was about not flaunting wealth. The "braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire" comments should clarify that. There is NOTHING in that passage that says anything about showing off skin.

 

[Dave-W]

Context is always good to bring up, although I still feel that it fits. Dressing to show off could involve showing off your body, not just jewels & riches.

You are reading that INTO the text.

"I still feel" does NOT constitute good biblical exegesis.

 

[bèlla]

Greetings,

Her attire is not the root of your sinful desires. You respond because the seed resides within.

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. —James 1:14-15

The world is full of temptations. We succumb to those that resonate with our mind, heart and flesh. To blame others for the things we indulge is irresponsible and unbiblical.

Lust is a choice. As is theft, lying, and so on. Your proclivity is the problem.

~Bella

 

[Dave-W]

Lust is a choice.

Biblically, Very True. But a lot of christian traditions define "lust" in a way that it is NOT true.

Example: I was raised with the understanding that any sexual thought or feeling (before saying "I Do") was sinful lust. Even common hormonal reactions were lust. Those things are NOT choice.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

IMHO, modesty is an attitude.

 

[HermanNeutics13]

Biblically, Very True. But a lot of christian traditions define "lust" in a way that it is NOT true.

Example: I was raised with the understanding that any sexual thought or feeling (before saying "I Do") was sinful lust. Even common hormonal reactions were lust. Those things are NOT choice.

Sometimes the real question is, where is the line?

 

[HermanNeutics13]

IMHO, modesty is an attitude.

Bingo, this is exactly it.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

You do realize that western civilization men are socialized to think of women as objects , prey or victims . Guys are told to tomcat around but the women they have sex with are told they’re [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s . Men are told that No! means maybe . Theyre told if she’s drunk go get some not caring that she might not want sex. Even rape victims are asked what they were wearing as if that was relevant to being assaulted as if the clothes are responsible . They don’t ask what you wearing if the creep attacks you and steals your purse. You’re being attacked in both scenarios.

It taught my two boys that no means no. That if she’s drunk or high don’t victimize her further. And don’t use women’s bodies to touch with if you’re just horny .

How many boys or men actually believe that?
Next to none.
Or at the most -- very few.

Although those thoughts probly were prevalent in the caveman days.

Which are not mentioned in the Bible.

M-Bob