Biden's Proposals Aim to Give Sturdier Support to the Middle Class

Fantine · May 3, 2021

I live in a "poor" state. There are way too many poor people here for us to help on our own. Through the miracle of taxes, we get money from California and Massachusetts...
And God bless those states. I am sure they are angry at us. We vote for candidates whose policies they abhor. They are stuck with way too many guns, no Medicare for all, tax cuts for the rich, an ex-president NY prosecutors believe is a criminal.

And yet they are supporting us poor states with our disastrous voting choices, because, through taxes they are stuck subsidizing us.

Thank the tax laws.

Hammster · May 3, 2021

SummerMadness said:
How long does a food basket last one family? The notion that charitable giving would somehow takeover from government assistance is laughable, especially when some charities discriminate against groups of people. The best thing about government is that it is non-discriminatory, private charities, especially churches do not do this. You may argue this is admirable because you want people leading a certain lifestyle you judge as worthy, but from a societal standpoint, allowing some people to slip through the cracks because you judge them as unworthy is worse for the overall society.

I used that as an example. There was context.

TLK Valentine · May 3, 2021

Hammster said:
I would not turn to crime. I might work four shifts at various fast food places, though.

I hope you never come to a point to put that to the test. (the crime part, not the fast food part)

My point is that you said my contributions weren’t enough because I’m only one person. My charitable giving go to places where I’m not the only one giving. For instance, this past Christmas our church gave out 57 food baskets to local families who couldn’t afford to provide a Christmas dinner. We gave a significant amount. But our amount alone wouldn’t cover even close to the total.

Sounds like your church did some good -- I'm glad to hear it.

Imagine what more could be done with the right support...

And every dime went to those families, and what was left over went to the benevolent fund for other needs that might arise in the community.

Again, if a small organization can do that much, imagine what a large organization can do...

The government would not be that effective.

There is such a thing as "too large," especially if one organization tries to micromanage everything; it'll crumble under its own bureaucracy. But municipal governments can do a good amount in their cities... state governments can coordinate things between cities (for example, if one city had a surplus while another couldn't do enough...) and a federal government could coordinate things between states...

Worth a try.

Hammster · May 3, 2021

TLK Valentine said:
Imagine what more could be done with the right support...

And here’s where we will disagree. I don’t think the government does a good job. Plus, I don’t see it as their job.

ArmenianJohn · May 3, 2021

Hammster said:
And here’s where we will disagree. I don’t think the government does a good job. Plus, I don’t see it as their job.

You don't think the government does a good job with anything? Really?

Hammster · May 3, 2021

ArmenianJohn said:
You don't think the government does a good job with anything? Really?

Not much, no.

Pommer · May 3, 2021

Hammster said:
Not much, no.

Love the country, hate its government?

Odd sentiment.

TLK Valentine · May 3, 2021

Hammster said:
And here’s where we will disagree. I don’t think the government does a good job.

I'm as cynical about the government as the next guy, but honestly, if they didn't succeed far more often than they failed, this country would be a post-apocalyptic cesspool by now.

(*pause for "too late" jokes*)

Plus, I don’t see it as their job.

Maintaining law and order is their job -- it's just a question of how they do it.

They can be reactive, proactive, or both.

Hammster · May 3, 2021

Pommer said:
Love the country, hate its government?

Odd sentiment.

Did you fully support Trump as president?

Hammster · May 3, 2021

TLK Valentine said:
I'm as cynical about the government as the next guy, but honestly, if they didn't succeed far more often than they failed, this country would be a post-apocalyptic cesspool by now.

(*pause for "too late" jokes*)

Maintaining law and order is their job -- it's just a question of how they do it.

They can be reactive, proactive, or both.

Law and order, sure. That’s not what the proposal is about, though.

Pommer · May 3, 2021

Hammster said:
Did you fully support Trump as president?

President Trump wasn’t “the government”.

TLK Valentine · May 3, 2021

Hammster said:
Law and order, sure. That’s not what the proposal is about, though.

If we agree that people who lose everything and get desperate are more likely to turn to crime...

We can be reactive, wait for them to commit a crime, and then arrest them.

Or we can be proactive, and help make sure they don't lose everything in the first place, and give them a hand if they do.

Or both.

Hammster · May 3, 2021

Pommer said:
President Trump wasn’t “the government”.

I never said that he was. So did you support him?

Hammster · May 3, 2021

TLK Valentine said:
If we agree that people who lose everything and get desperate are more likely to turn to crime...

We can be reactive, wait for them to commit a crime, and then arrest them.

Or we can be proactive, and help make sure they don't lose everything in the first place, and give them a hand if they do.

Or both.

Your assumptions are unfounded.

Oneiric1975 · May 3, 2021

You can tell much more about a person once they've experienced the worst. At that point all the bluster, bluff and facade fall away and the truth comes out.

The REAL miracle is if someone can have compassion without themselves having experienced the worst personally.

SummerMadness · May 3, 2021

Hammster said:
Did you fully support Trump as president?

Then your post is a non sequitur if your question about Trump has nothing do with the conversation about loving the country, but hating the government. You might of well have asked, do you think cucumbers taste better pickled?

Hammster · May 3, 2021

SummerMadness said:
Then your post is a non sequitur if your question about Trump has nothing do with the conversation about loving the country, but hating the government. You might of well have asked, do you think cucumbers taste better pickled?

Apparently you misunderstand the point of the question.

Oneiric1975 · May 3, 2021

Hammster said:
Apparently you misunderstand the point of the question.

I have to admit I, too, misunderstood your question. Someone said "love the country but hate the government" and you asked if they supported Trump (with the assumption that they likely were not the kind of person who would support Trump) so it did kind of sound like the question was predicated on Trump being the government.

I might have missed something in the exchange but it is hard to figure out what was missed.

Hammster · May 3, 2021

Oneiric1975 said:
I have to admit I, too, misunderstood your question. Someone said "love the country but hate the government" and you asked if they supported Trump (with the assumption that they likely were not the kind of person who would support Trump) so it did kind of sound like the question was predicated on Trump being the government.

I might have missed something in the exchange but it is hard to figure out what was missed.

The presidency is part of the government.

TLK Valentine · May 3, 2021

Hammster said:
Your assumptions are unfounded.

Fair enough -- I assume that a person who loses everything he has in the world (or believes they are about to) and/or prefers not to end up living on the streets is more likely to turn to crime than one who has not.

Biden's Proposals Aim to Give Sturdier Support to the Middle Class

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