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Those words were spoken in the first century. It gets (got) even better in the Millennium.
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Those words were spoken in the first century. It gets (got) even better in the Millennium.“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Matthew 12:28)
Who do you think spoke to and through Saint John the Apostle in Revelation?There is no millennium. Jesus never taught it. His kingdom is spiritual and eternal. Try to find one mention of a physical kingdom in the gospels or epistles. You are importing the pharisaic understanding of the kingdom and not Jesus' teaching about it into Revelation.
Yes, because that is what Scripture says is to take place.
The tribulation happens just before Christ’s second coming. It is The last generation in this world That will see this happen, I believe that we could be this generation.There is no temporary physical kingdom planned for this world. The kingdom arrived with Jesus at his first coming Luke 11:20. It is spiritual Luke 17:21, and flesh and blood cannot inherit it 1 Corinthians 15:50. It is a kingdom only the born again can see John 3:3. It is a kingdom of faith and cannot be a kingdom of sight 2 Corinthians 5:7 as millennial theories claim Luke 17:20.
The great Tribulation was Jewish only and happened as foretold by Jesus in 70 AD. By destroying the temple and Jerusalem Matthew 24:ff. Jesus told his disciples, “when you see” all of this, spoken in the second person plural, meaning those in his present audience, leave Jerusalem. This they did according to history.
Tribulation is the normal lot of all Christians between the first and Second Advent Acts 14:22.
Nothing remains unfulfilled before Christ returns*. It will be as in Noah’s day, much like today where people marry and are given in marriage Matthew 24:36–39.
On the last day Christ returns followed by the resurrection of the Just John 6:39. Followed by the Rapture 1 Corinthians 15:51–53. Accompanied by the resurrection of the damned and their judgment John 5:29. Accompanied by the destruction of the universe by fire, followed by the creation of the New Heavens and Earth 2 Peter 3:10–13. Where believers of all-time meet and live in the house of the Lord forever Psalm 23:6.
*Many look for the symbols of Revelation to literally appear in the future. But if we look for what the symbols represent, we can see Revelation’s predictions fulfilled time and again throughout history.
It will be as in the days of Noah, marrying and giving in marriage. The great tribulation was Jewish and happened in AD 70 in the destruction of Jerusalem.The tribulation happens just before Christ’s second coming. It is The last generation in this world That will see this happen, I believe that we could be this generation.
You need to balance Revelation against the clear claims of scripture in the gospels and epistles.Who do you think spoke to and through Saint John the Apostle in Revelation?
Even if Jesus didn't mention the Millennium during his live ministry on EARTH. He himself explicitly mentioned it in his revelation to John from God's throne room in HEAVEN.
I'm afraid we're dismissing revelation 2 lightly. Revelation is scripture 2. It says Millennium. And so a Millennium must be part of our philosophy.
The 1000 years are not the eternal kingdom. The 1000 years = Satan's binding. Satan attacks the eternal kingdom when the 1000 years end.Those words were spoken in the first century. It gets (got) even better in the Millennium.
all technically true statementsThe 1000 years are not the eternal kingdom. The 1000 years = Satan's binding. Satan attacks the eternal kingdom when the 1000 years end.
almost! Christ came in power on the clouds of heaven, visibly exalted to the right hand of God in 70ad... The cataclysmic end of the Old Covenant Age And the beginning of the New Covenant Age.The tribulation happens just before Christ’s second coming. It is The last generation in this world That will see this happen, I believe that we could be this generation.
both true statements, both applicable to 70adIt will be as in the days of Noah, marrying and giving in marriage. The great tribulation was Jewish and happened in AD 70 in the destruction of Jerusalem.
they don't conflict, they all present a self consistent mutually consistent messageYou need to balance Revelation against the clear claims of scripture in the gospels and epistles.
The great tribulation is past. The days of Noah are yet future but looming.all technically true statements
almost! Christ came in power on the clouds of heaven, visibly exalted to the right hand of God in 70ad... The cataclysmic end of the Old Covenant Age And the beginning of the New Covenant Age.
The "destruction of Heaven and earth" and the re formation of a new heaven and New Earth is typical eschatological hyperbolic exaggerated language
both true statements, both applicable to 70ad
they don't conflict, they all present a self consistent mutually consistent message
In Revelations, Christ told first century churches that He was "coming quickly", does that mean the return of Christ took place in the first century?
The disciples of Christ themselves also fell into this same misunderstanding, more than once they interpreted the teachings of Christ to mean that the kingdom would appear immediately, did it?
It is problematic...
if there is a kind of "double fulfillment"The great tribulation is past. The days of Noah are yet future but looming.
so...
Revelation 12:3
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.
Revelation 13:1
The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name
so we are talking about 2 different. Adversaries.
One is the DRAGON symbolizing the devil. The Serpent from the garden of Eden.
The other is the BEAST. Which is symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire?
The BEAST OF REVELATION. Matches up with the FOURTH BEAST OF DANIEL. The 10th horn of the BEAST causes the abomination of Desolation. In the destruction of the physical temple during the 70th week.
The Dragon, although superficially similar. Is new to Revelation? The dragon is chained during the Millennium? And freed afterwards. To be again, the "power behind the throne". But this time, not of the fourth beast Daniel= Pagan Roman Empire...
but "Gog and Magog" of Ezekiel 38-9 = global cabal of ???
So I want to focus my remarks on the beast. Not the dragon. The Beast symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire. And the 10 horns with 10 crowns. Symbolizes the first 10 emperors of Rome. Julius Caesar through Vespasian, who exactly as prophecy? Defeated 3 rival emperor claimants. And. Razed the temple of Jerusalem.
The ten horns whether in Revelation 13, 12 or 17 are the same ten kings.So I want to focus my remarks on the beast. Not the dragon. The Beast symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire. And the 10 horns with 10 crowns. Symbolizes the first 10 emperors of Rome. Julius Caesar through Vespasian, who exactly as prophecy? Defeated 3 rival emperor claimants. And. Razed the temple of Jerusalem.
No, Jesus said it was the worst ever never to be repeated.if there is a kind of "double fulfillment"
the tribulation of the terrible war of 70ad came as a venomous flood = revelation 12:15-16 ?
Dave, how could have anything that happened in 70 AD could have resulted in all of life on earth be made extinct?It will be as in the days of Noah, marrying and giving in marriage. The great tribulation was Jewish and happened in AD 70 in the destruction of Jerusalem.
False.The great tribulation is past. The days of Noah are yet future but looming.
Well, first of all the dragon is not the beast. I superficial resemblance is surely significant perhaps implying that the dragon so motivates and inspires and empowers the beast that the beast comes to resemble the dragon in detail.The ten horns whether in Revelation 13, 12 or 17 are the same ten kings.
In Revelation 17, which explains the ten horns are ten kings (Revelation 17:13), the ten horns do not have crowns in Revelation 17:3. They had not come to power, at the time of the 6th head king.
In Revelation 13, the ten horns have crowns., with 42 months left in the seven years, Revelation 13:5.
The ten kings rule concurrently with each other and with the beast person. Julius Caesar through Vespasion are sequential kings. And cannot be the tens kings.
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The beast is Revelation 13 is also a person (as well as a kingdom). For does it makes sense to say (speaking of the ten kings giving their kingdom to the beast) ....
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast (the Pagan Roman Empire), until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
or
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast (the 8th king), until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
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10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
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The seven kings, the sequential kings are:
1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero
7. End times little horn person (descended from the Julio Claudians, above)
They are sequential with each other, only because they are of the same family, the Julio-Claudians.
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11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Erik, you have to go to Revelation 17:8a to know what it is talking about. The beast that was and is not, it talking about an unclean spirit of some person who was living, but dead at the time of John. And is in the bottomless pit.
In Revelation 17b, it is talking about the end times person, who the world will witness being killed and coming back alive. The beast, the unclean spirit will come out of the bottomless pit and possess that person. It is not until there 42 months left in the seven years.
It is difficult to understand I know because it is actually referring to two persons as the beast in Revelation 17:8, not one.
In Revelation 12 and Revelation 17, Satan is seen, the power behind the beast. Because at the time of the first century (Revelation 17) and at the beginning of the 7 years (Revelation 12) the unclean spirit is still in the bottomless pit.
Revelation 17 - first century, the unclean spirit in the bottomless pit
Revelation 12 *- end times verses 12:6 + 12:4, the 7 years - the unclean spirit in the bottomless pit
Revelation 13 - end times, last 42 months of the 7 years - the unclean spirit has ascended out of the bottomless pit.
*Erik, regarding Revelation 12, the seven years, I would invite to read in Jason's thread on his chronology. I explain Revelation 12, why it is about Israel in the 7 years. And he got it....
start with my post #79, then Jason's post #80, then my post #81
Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology
Jesus Christ himself explicitly tied the tribulation to the 70th week of Daniel, which involves and prophecies. The destruction of physical Jerusalem and its physical temple. That was accomplished in spades in 70 AD.False.
The great tribulation has not passed.
How could you or anyone possibly say that?
I really am interested in how you believe that.
Matthew 24, is unambiguously discussing the destruction of the physical temple of Jerusalem. In physical Jerusalem.Dave, how could have anything that happened in 70 AD could have resulted in all of life on earth be made extinct?
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Well, the straightforward plain reading of the text would associate the days of Noah with the tribulation. There is no obvious break there is no obvious reason to insert a 2000 year gap between one verse and the next.The great tribulation is past. The days of Noah are yet future but looming.
Well, first of all the dragon is not the beast. I superficial resemblance is surely significant perhaps implying that the dragon so motivates and inspires and empowers the beast that the beast comes to resemble the dragon in detail.
But the dragon is not the beast and the actions and anatomical features of the dragon do not reflect directly on the beast. They have no direct relevance to the beast.
I think I can because Revelation 12 and Revelation 13, have both crowns and no crowns, but in reverse fashion. So unless it says crowns, there are no crowns.Also, while revelation 17 does not have the noun crowns. You cannot make an argument from silence. Revelation 13 describes the beast, Matt says the 10 horns have 10 Crowns Revelation 17 summarises revelation 13 just to bring it back to memory. It doesn't explicitly detail every single anatomical feature but that doesn't mean that any of those anatomical features are lacking or have otherwise changed.
Revelation is not repeating itself. It is making distinctions between Revelation 12, 13, 17.But we should expect it to. Revelation shouldn't have to repeat itself over and over again. It references debiste at its key features. Just to be completely sure everyone knows what the author is talking about. But in argument from silence. Makes no sense. Did the beast suddenly lose its leopard body and Lions paws and so on of course not, neither did it lose its horns or crowds.
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