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keltoi

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Reading what Jewish sages of the pre-christian era wrote about it.
And how would they know? Until day 6 the only cognisant being there was God so Jewish Sages (the correct name is Hebrew btw the word Jew come about after the Christian era started) have just as much chance to figure it out as we do.

Studying culture, linguistic and historical understandings is not just "someone else's oddball interpretation."
Isn't it? My training is in History, Psych, Archaeology, Anthropology, Aboriginal Studies and Linguistics. I know enough of them to confidently say that they really don't matter in many cases when looking at the Bible. Genesis 1 is just the beginning, literally.

For an example: I am currently reading George Lamsa's commentary on Matthew. He was raised (pre WW1) in the mountain region between Syria and Turkey and spoke as his native language Aramaic. Linguists confirm that dialect was almost identical to that spoken in the first century, including the idioms and figures of speech. It has made me re-think (even after years of studying other Jewish sources) many of Our Lord's sayings and what He was REALLY trying to say. (how he would have been understood by his initial audience)
I'll give you an example. I was reading an article about Mary's title Queen of Heaven and the author gave a verse of the Bible and said this points to Mary. being the Queen of Heaven. I then read the entire chapter of the Bible (it was Song of Solomon 4) and I come to the conclusion that nearly 2000 years of Catholic scholars and the best they could come up with was 1 verse out of context in a chapter where Solomon is talking about his wifes breasts. Now if we get rid of the scholars and look at it for ourselves I'm pretty confident most people would think he isn't talking about Mary mother of Jesus yet nearly 2000 years of catholic scholars think he is. Are you really trying to tell me that's not oddball?

I get where you're coming from and I respect your opinion, please respect mine and don't try to change my mind on using only scriptures in some discussions. I know the mods aren't even going to consider my request so trying to change my mind after the fact is about as useful as curdled milk in coffee for breakfast.
 
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Dave-W

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I'll give you an example. I was reading an article about Mary's title Queen of Heaven and the author gave a verse of the Bible and said this points to Mary. being the Queen of Heaven. I then read the entire chapter of the Bible (it was Song of Solomon 4) and I come to the conclusion that nearly 2000 years of Catholic scholars and the best they could come up with was 1 verse out of context in a chapter where Solomon is talking about his wife's breasts. Now if we get rid of the scholars and look at it for ourselves I'm pretty confident most people would think he isn't talking about Mary mother of Jesus yet nearly 2000 years of catholic scholars think he is. Are you really trying to tell me that's not oddball?
Oddball indeed. It violates this scripture:

Rom 3.1 hen what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

If you go to a non-Semetic source for interpretation, you will get errors.

The early church fathers were strongly influenced by Greek (read pagan) philosophy including the stoics and gnostics. So they ended up making an idol of virginity and demonized even married sexuality. We in the western world are influenced by their attitudes and logic framework; even if we are not christians.
My training is in History, Psych, Archaeology, Anthropology, Aboriginal Studies and Linguistics.
Good. Your study in linguistics should have alerted you to the unique features inherent in Semitic languages: they have multiple layers of meanings which are all simultaneously true even if they conflict with each other.
 
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Hoghead1

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You can disagree, tell me how do you historically analyse Genesis 1?

Yep study the Bible not someone else's oddball interpretation of it.
I would do so by a very careful study of the literary structure of the texts. For example, when it comes to Genesis, I would argue there are two separate, contradictory creation accounts provided there. I am including a summary of my arguments.




  1. \





When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
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keltoi

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I would do so by a very careful study of the literary structure of the texts. For example, when it comes to Genesis, I would argue there are two separate, contradictory creation accounts provided there. I am including a summary of my arguments.




  1. \




When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
Very good. Now if we only had a Biblical Theology forum we could discuss it using the BIble only.
 
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keltoi

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I think you could use "General Theology" to start a thread for a subject of interest to you, and you can ask people to give scripture for what they say.
I could but there are people who tell others they should move the thread to a different forum, there are also people who tell others it is in a different forum and they can post what they want, etc etc etc.

I'm not pushing this anymore, I stopped pushing it on April 10 which is nearly 2 weeks ago now.
 
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com7fy8

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I don't know about those threads; each one could have been a unique case but ruled to belong in another place. I don't know about you, but I have seen threads moved because they belonged in the Unorthodox section. Also, if you start a thread which is personal, it could be moved to the Christian Advice section, which could be to your advantage, since I find there can be very caring people who will share in the advice place but they avoid the "General Theology" place with its disagreements being allowed. So, you could be getting moved to where people will be more likely to honor your desire for scripture being shared. Maybe a subject was more specialized, than to be in the general section. Wherever a thread goes, people can follow it there, and still you can encourage people to use scripture, anywhere.
 
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