Biblical pacifism vs "passivism"

[TG123]

Ron Sider is a Mennonite theologian whose speech in 1984 helped inspire the formation of Christian Peacemaker Teams. I like how he differentiates between Biblical pacifism and "passivism" and rips into the hypocrisy of many Christians who call themselves pacifists but don't do anything to follow Jesus. The speech is directed towards a Mennonite audience but every Christian can learn from it. It is quite long but definitely worth reading.

Look forward to hearing your views on this if you have time. Enjoy!


God's People Reconciling | Christian Peacemaker Teams

 

[Bro_Sam]

Ron Sider is a Mennonite theologian whose speech in 1984 helped inspire the formation of Christian Peacemaker Teams. I like how he differentiates between Biblical pacifism and "passivism" and rips into the hypocrisy of many Christians who call themselves pacifists but don't do anything to follow Jesus. The speech is directed towards a Mennonite audience but every Christian can learn from it. It is quite long but definitely worth reading.

Look forward to hearing your views on this if you have time. Enjoy!


God's People Reconciling | Christian Peacemaker Teams

Sorry, he lost me when he started his idiotic rantings with an attack on capitalism and an attack on the US.

Only in the warped mind of a liberal can the God who demanded that His chosen people annihilate entire nations and who, Himself, destroyed every living thing on the planet except for eight people and a handful of animals, and has promised to return with an army to destroy His enemies be considered a "pacifist".

 

[David Brider]

Sorry, he lost me when he started his idiotic rantings with an attack on capitalism and an attack on the US.

Could you point to exactly where he did that? I suspect you may be reading something into what he said that isn't actually there.

Only in the warped mind of a liberal can the God who demanded that His chosen people annihilate entire nations and who, Himself, destroyed every living thing on the planet except for eight people and a handful of animals, and has promised to return with an army to destroy His enemies be considered a "pacifist".

Well, that's one of the great contradictions of the Christian faith, isn't it? Yes, as you say, God called Israel to destroy other nations and virtually wiped out the world, but OTOH Jesus is the Prince of peace and taught his followers a way of life that certainly looks like a kind of radical pacifism (forgive our enemies, pray for those who persecute us, don't retaliate against those who are violent to us), a theme picked up by Paul (don't repay violence for violence). Reconciliation is a key theme of the gospel message - reconciliation between us and God, but also reconciliation between different people and groups of people.

Personally, I feel that if Jesus died for someone (and pretty obviously, I believe He died for everyone), then it would be wrong for me to kill or harm them, or to justify someone else killing or harming them, whatever other people may have to say about them.

David.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Well, that's one of the great contradictions of the Christian faith, isn't it?

No.

Yes, as you say, God called Israel to destroy other nations and virtually wiped out the world, but OTOH Jesus is the Prince of peace...

No, Jesus is called the Prince of Peace because He makes peace between God and man, not because He is a pacifist.

and taught his followers a way of life that certainly looks like a kind of radical pacifism (forgive our enemies, pray for those who persecute us, don't retaliate against those who are violent to us), a theme picked up by Paul (don't repay violence for violence).

I don't know what Bible you're reading, but in the KJV that I've got, there isn't anything about pacifism there.

Personally, I feel that if Jesus died for someone (and pretty obviously, I believe He died for everyone), then it would be wrong for me to kill or harm them, or to justify someone else killing or harming them, whatever other people may have to say about them.

So then, you disagree with Jesus when He commanded His disciples to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with? Or when He affirmed capital punishement?

 

[Wedjat]

Only in the warped mind of a liberal can the God who demanded that His chosen people annihilate entire nations and who, Himself, destroyed every living thing on the planet except for eight people and a handful of animals, and has promised to return with an army to destroy His enemies be considered a "pacifist".

For once we seem to be in agreement. However, I don't see that as any reason not to support a pacifist movement, wherever the origin may lie. The world could do with a little less war.
I don't completely agree with the guy giving the speech either, but I don't completely agree with a lot of people. If it helps promote peace, I'm game.

 

[quatona]

Only in the warped mind of a liberal can the God who demanded that His chosen people annihilate entire nations and who, Himself, destroyed every living thing on the planet except for eight people and a handful of animals, and has promised to return with an army to destroy His enemies be considered a "pacifist".

In the warped mind of this liberal such a god cannot be considered a pacifist.
To express what - in the mind of this liberal - such a god must be considered is prohibited by the blasphemy rule.

 

[David Brider]

No, Jesus is called the Prince of Peace because He makes peace between God and man, not because He is a pacifist.

Sure, and if we can strive to follow His example - by helping to make peace between the various warring factions of mankind - then that's a good thing.

I don't know what Bible you're reading, but in the KJV that I've got, there isn't anything about pacifism there.

Maybe you need a better dictionary, then, 'cos forgiving our enemies, praying for those who persecute us, not retaliating against those who attack us, and not repaying violence for violence, all seem to be what pacifism is all about.

So then, you disagree with Jesus when He commanded His disciples to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with?

He told His disciples to buy swords, yes. Where do you get the idea that the swords were to protect themselves with?

Or when He affirmed capital punishement?

IIRC, He only affirmed capital punishment to be carried out by people who were without sin themselves.

And also IIRC, there isn't anybody without sin except God.

 

[Bro_Sam]

For once we seem to be in agreement. However, I don't see that as any reason not to support a pacifist movement, wherever the origin may lie. The world could do with a little less war.

Unfortunately, the people we're at war with don't see it that way. They're not going to stop making war just because a bunch of hippies say so.

 

[Bro_Sam]

Sure, and if we can strive to follow His example - by helping to make peace between the various warring factions of mankind - then that's a good thing.

You say that that was "His example". Could you please show us where in scripture He did this?

Maybe you need a better dictionary, then, 'cos forgiving our enemies, praying for those who persecute us, not retaliating against those who attack us, and not repaying violence for violence, all seem to be what pacifism is all about.

And maybe you need to read the Bible.

He told His disciples to buy swords, yes. Where do you get the idea that the swords were to protect themselves with?

Because I'm not a moron and I know what swords were for.

IIRC, He only affirmed capital punishment to be carried out by people who were without sin themselves.

No, actually, that's not true. He didn't tell Pilate that the state had to be without sin. Nothing in Romans 13 says the state must be without sin.

 

[tulc]

No.



No, Jesus is called the Prince of Peace because He makes peace between God and man, not because He is a pacifist.



I don't know what Bible you're reading, but in the KJV that I've got, there isn't anything about pacifism there.



So then, you disagree with Jesus when He commanded His disciples to go out and buy swords to protect themselves with? Or when He affirmed capital punishement?

About the bolded portion, could you point to somewhere in Scripture where they used all those swords?
tulc(and Jesus didn't heal the person they used it on?)

 

[nolongerhome]

So... we shouldn't turn the other cheek, then?

 

[Bro_Sam]

About the bolded portion, could you point to somewhere in Scripture where they used all those swords?
tulc(and Jesus didn't heal the person they used it on?)

Irrelevant. The issue isn't whether or not they used them, but the fact that Jesus commanded them to buy them in the first place.

 

[JustMeSee]

Interesting argument. Either there are two different interpretations of the scriptures being discussed or some picking and choosing of scriptures.

Subscribing to thread.

 

[tulc]

Irrelevant. The issue isn't whether or not they used them, but the fact that Jesus commanded them to buy them in the first place.

...so that would be a "no" about any Scripture where His disciples used a sword either for defense or offense?
tulc(just likes to be clear)

 

[The Nihilist]

Irrelevant. The issue isn't whether or not they used them, but the fact that Jesus commanded them to buy them in the first place.

Yeah! That guy never ever even once spoke in any way that wasn't completely 100% literal, unless it's the gay parts about loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek! And only an atheist liberal homosexual baby eater would say otherwise!

 

[Bro_Sam]

...so that would be a "no" about any Scripture where His disciples used a sword either for defense or offense?
tulc(just likes to be clear)

No, that would be an "irrelevant".

 

[tulc]

No, that would be an "irrelevant".

Hmmm, so it's irrelevant that you can't come up with an example of them using all those swords they bought? How about the fact of their not using them sort of makes the whole "Just War" idea a little suspect?
tulc(just an idea)

 

[nolongerhome]

Tulc, the problem here is that the Bible quote-mines Jesus into making him into a pacifist. It takes out a whole lot of context.

I mean, what he really said was:

"But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well. Unless of course Muslims are involved, particularly Saddam Hussein or Al Qaeda - you should blow the hell out of them. Make the middle east a great big glass parking lot. Yee haa!"

The other famous misquote was this:

"Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me. Though remember, all those poor brothers of mine that aren't Christian, or are poor because they are just lazy folk that have never and will never do an honest day's work in their life, ignoring the fact that laziness is really nowhere near the main cause of poverty, of course - they deserve squat. Nothing. Nada. Don't give anything to such leeching scum, use that money to buy a flat screen TV and some fine dining (but no shellfish, ok, Leviticus is supposed to be taken literally, you know!"

Where those Bible editors got off on twisting Jesus' message like they have done, I don't know.

 

[tulc]

Tulc, the problem here is that the Bible quote-mines Jesus into making him into a pacifist. It takes out a whole lot of context.

I mean, what he really said was:

"But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well. Unless of course Muslims are involved, particularly Saddam Hussein or Al Qaeda - you should blow the hell out of them. Make the middle east a great big glass parking lot. Yee haa!"

The other famous misquote was this:

"Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me. Though remember, all those poor brothers of mine that aren't Christian, or are poor because they are just lazy folk that have never and will never do an honest day's work in their life, ignoring the fact that laziness is really nowhere near the main cause of poverty, of course - they deserve squat. Nothing. Nada. Don't give anything to such leeching scum, use that money to buy a flat screen TV and some fine dining (but no shellfish, ok, Leviticus is supposed to be taken literally, you know!"

Where those Bible editors got off on twisting Jesus' message like they have done, I don't know.

Ahhh! That would explain a lot!
tulc(suspected there were things left out)

 

[Bro_Sam]

Hmmm, so it's irrelevant that you can't come up with an example of them using all those swords they bought?

Tulc, it doesn't matter if I have a thousand examples or none at all. The issue is not whether or not they used them, but that Jesus instructed them to buy them.

Less than 1% of police officers will ever fire their weapons in the line of duty. That doesn't mean that they are not instructed to carry them.

How about the fact of their not using them sort of makes the whole "Just War" idea a little suspect?

I never said anything about a just war. I just pointed out to you that Jesus instructed His disciplies to go out and buy swords.