Biblical Morals

[Verv]

It doesn't make sense that this gift could be so easily taken away or not given at all via childhood abuse or mental illness in light of an all powerful deity.

Yeah, it makes sense. Why doesn't it make sense? You need to explain that. I don't know what you are trying to say.

I don't know why you think this is the case. It would wreak havoc on any society. It wouldn't make us more efficient or better creatures. As far as the elderly go, I know far more valuable elderly folk than the all to common, undisciplined, self-serving youth that have erected new meaning to the concept of the 'me-show'. I'll take my 72 yr-old biochemist mentor that enjoys waxing poetic over the sciences any day over a young fool. So, I guess it's just a matter of perspective.

He is probably an exception -- most people who cannot work should probably just vanish.

Then why do so many people behave so irrationally? It is a rare person I meet that seems to think out their decisions in a rational way. Most people seem to base everything they do off emotions and doing what they are told by the ideology they follow.

Because their desires conflict with morality and they choose their desires over morality.

I would imagine because the Nazi's neither practiced enough socialism to constitute a form of Marxism and because the majority of Nazi's were not atheists.

Wow that was hard.

OK, Nazi's werent Marxists.

Do you know what a Nazi is?

Does Nazi mean "a German between the years 1933 and 1945" or is there an ideology that existed within the Nazi Party?

Do you know the religious stance of Nazi party members?

You ought to 'read & review' before you speak.

Totalitarian, centralised state based power system and the majority of them thought of themselves as Christians... so, neither Marxist nor Atheist.

Even if we accept that men like Hitler are totally cynical about everything aside from their own power and had no religious belief and men like Himmler were strange occultists, the prominent use of Christian terms and symbolism breaks any hope of defining Nazi Germany as atheist.

The majority of WHO?

Germans? Sure. And the majority of Germans had little to do with the government and were probably a bit apolitical.

But what is a Nazi?

You should talk about that one -- if you know what a Nazi is you might be able to speak accurately about this period of time and the nature of this regime.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

You're confusing the Crusades and the Inquisitions. Although, the Crusades are another topic that ties in, as well as slavery, treating women like chattel, cruel punishments and torture of prisoners, (and I ain't talking about water boarding, either. I'm talking about all those torture wheels, racks, and dungeons where your bones and joints one by one get smashed as you die in agony)


How would you react if on tonight's news, they reported that 3 to 5 thousand Americans died recently, and tens of thousands more have been incarcerated, for the exact same reasons used in the Spanish Inquisition? How would news like that go over with you?

It happened in 9/11. Don't know about the incarceration bit, considering most non-christian countrys kill their prisoners.

Again, this shows you need to read history about the Moors trying to conquer Spain. No, the Spanish Inquisition started when the Muslims conquered Iberia and were trying to conquer Spain. The Inquisition was instituted to protect Christian Spain. And again rarely any of the people(less than 2%) who were actually tried were killed.


"The Spanish Inquisition was motivated in part by the multi-religious nature of Spanish society following the reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula from the Moors (Muslims)"


"Included under the rubric of heretical propositions were verbal offences, from outright blasphemy to questionable statements regarding religious beliefs, from issues of sexual morality, to misbehaviour of the clergy. Many were brought to trial for affirming that simple fornication (sex without the explicit aim of procreation) was not a sin or for putting in doubt different aspects of Christian faith such as Transubstantiation or the virginity of Mary. Also, members of the clergy itself were occasionally accused of heretical propositions. These offences rarely lead to severe penalties."

"Some of the torture methods attributed to the Spanish Inquisition were never used. For example, the "Iron Maiden" never existed in Spain, and was a post-Reformation invention of Germany. Thumbscrews on display in an English museum as Spanish were recently argued to be of English origin.'"


The Crusades were a totally different thing. Which was centered around who truly owned Jerusalem. Had nothing much to do with european lands with the exception of the Great Schism. Also the Muslims sparked the crusades, not the Christians.

Many of the crusaders were very honorable actually. Considering they were one of the main partys that helped the poor. Although what I probably say is void to many atheists, considering they know nothing of the honor that entails a knight fighting for his faith and what he believes to be truly good so Ill will save my breath in that regard. However comparing the people who died in atheistic marxist regimes to the Inqsuition would be like comparing a flea to a elephant. It would take hundreds of Inqusititons to even equal one regime of Mao or Stalin.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

I thought that in the eyes of God, a sin is a sin. If you kill 3,000 people rather than 3,000,000, does that make you not a murderer?

The real issue is what's the value of Christianity. Is it just to be forgiven for your sins? If it's only to make you feel good about yourself then it's little different than all the new-age, self-help programs purporting to boost one's self-esteem. But I thought Christianity is supposed to make people better. Christians are supposed to be salt and light to the world. But when Christianity is used as a cover to justify persecution and prejudice, then it's a miserable failure. Bertrand Russell put it well: "If Christianity is supposed to make men moral, I haven't noticed it."

Again this shows you have not read much of the Gospel. COnsidering the apostles in Acts had went over this problem greatly(what morals to follow). Eventually in the counsel of Jerusalem they concluded that Christians should abstain from sexual perversion and eating the meat of strangled animals. Christianity is the fullfillment of Judaism(the fullfillment of the messiah). THe gospel shows that we are truly helpless in becoming truly good and are in need of Christ to forgive our sins, because we are sinners and of original sin

The main goal of Christianity is to free the world from the bonds of sin. The atonement is not a self help program. Most self help programs have to do with worldy things, and you cannot be a friend of this world and be a Christian. If you think of it that way(as a self help program) then you have insulted the Cross.

Also the atonement does not give christians the freedom to sin. God can see through people who presume his mercy.

 

[Chairman Meow]

"Many of the crusaders were very honorable actually".

Murdering people along the way (or anywhere) to Jerusalem is not honorable actually.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

The Bible puts the ancient Hebrews' spin on pre-existing ethical norms. Though you could argue that does it originate some specific customs and rituals, which it ties into ethics by teaching that observing these customs is righteous. Did any earlier scripture set aside one specific day each week for Sabbath observance? Or forbid consuming certain foods that it labels as unclean?

How can you believe ancient writings about other peoples?

 

[Braunwyn]

Yeah, it makes sense. Why doesn't it make sense? You need to explain that. I don't know what you are trying to say.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense that compassion/morals would be arbitrarily etched on the hearts of some and not others...in light of a deity that is supposed to have some form of concern for its creation.

He is probably an exception -- most people who cannot work should probably just vanish.

I think people can still be valuable, productive, and have something to give that doesn't fit under the umbrella of working for $$$. So, maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by work. If we're just speaking of working for $$$, I wouldn't necessarily make that the end all be all of value and I'm sure what we each individually value varies greatly from one person to the next.

 

[SiderealExalt]

OK, Nazi's werent Marxists.

We already knew that. You contradicting yourself or just playing games?

Do you know what a Nazi is?

I'm going to assume you are specifically referring to the ideology of the Nationalist Socialist Party(which wasn't even socialist anyway) and the specifics of their Fascist identity?

Does Nazi mean "a German between the years 1933 and 1945" or is there an ideology that existed within the Nazi Party?

Forgive me if I look at you like you're not that intelligent.

Do you know the religious stance of Nazi party members?

You ought to 'read & review' before you speak.

Says the person playing stupid games. anywho, back on topic.

Murdering people along the way (or anywhere) to Jerusalem is not honorable actually.

Not to mention most of them were there to steal land. The whole holy crusade stuff was often a secondary motivation.

 

[jayem]

THe gospel shows that we are truly helpless in becoming truly good and are in need of Christ to forgive our sins, because we are sinners and of original sin

Yes. Christianity is about forgiveness of sin. Good works don't bring about salvation. But Christians are supposed to demonstrate their salvation through good works. And this is my point. What affects me and everyone else is not your state of salvation. I'm interested in what you do unto others. If Christianity doesn't help you do better unto others, then, as a practical matter, it's useless.

This touches on the Nazi discussion: I don't think Hitler was a believing Christian (not in his later life anyway), and many of the SS bigwigs who actually ran the death camps concocted their own religion out of Nordic mythology and pagan mysticism. But where was the Christian church during the holocaust? Except for some brave priests, ministers, and citizens, the bulk of European Christians were rather silent when their Jewish neighbors were disappearing. And you can't deny that centuries of anti-Semitic tradition--reinforced by the church's teachings--created a fertile soil for the Hitler's evil. If the church had done right thing and forcefully opposed the Nazi's racial policies off the bat, history might have been very different. I think the lack of significant action against the Nazi's by the European church is a huge moral failing.

So my question is whether in the real world, Christianity improves morality. Does it make the world a better place? I'd say its record is decidely mixed. On the credit side are many schools, hospitals, charitable organizations and other philanthropy. Along with a lot of great art, music, architecture, and literature. On the debit side is that--like all organized religion--it promotes tribalism and has been used to justify war and persecution of non-believers. It certainly hasn't prevented human conflict.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Yes. Christianity is about forgiveness of sin. Good works don't bring about salvation. But Christians are supposed to demonstrate their salvation through good works. And this is my point. What affects me and everyone else is not your state of salvation. I'm interested in what you do unto others. If Christianity doesn't help you do better unto others, then, as a practical matter, it's useless.

This touches on the Nazi discussion: I don't think Hitler was a believing Christian (not in his later life anyway), and many of the SS bigwigs who actually ran the death camps concocted their own religion out of Nordic mythology and pagan mysticism. But where was the Christian church during the holocaust? Except for some brave priests, ministers, and citizens, the bulk of European Christians were rather silent when their Jewish neighbors were disappearing. And you can't deny that centuries of anti-Semitic tradition--reinforced by the church's teachings--created a fertile soil for the Hitler's evil. If the church had done right thing and forcefully opposed the Nazi's racial policies off the bat, history might have been very different. I think the lack of significant action against the Nazi's by the European church is a huge moral failing.

So my question is whether in the real world, Christianity improves morality. Does it make the world a better place? I'd say its record is decidely mixed. On the credit side are many schools, hospitals, charitable organizations and other philanthropy. Along with a lot of great art, music, architecture, and literature. On the debit side is that--like all organized religion--it promotes tribalism and has been used to justify war and persecution of non-believers. It certainly hasn't prevented human conflict.

THe Jewish community constantly rags on the christians for "not helping" them during the holocaust. When they don't realize that the christians did help many of the Jews, hiding them in monastarys, taking them in homes, even providing false baptismal records. But we must conclude that the Nazi Regime, during its peak, was extremely powerful. What were the christians suspposed to do? Run at the SS soldiers with no guns or ammo to be shot down? There was not much the christian community could do because they were powerless against the enormous SS army. That is why many had to remain silent and help the Jews in secret..

Also I could pull the same thing if I wanted to. Where are all the Jews while the christians are being butchered in Asia and the middle east? Why don't the Jews in Israel help their christian brothers who are being slaughtered by the Muslims now in palestine? Why didn't the Jews help the Greek Orthodox when they were being taken control over by the Ottoman Empire? Why don't they help the christians in Iraq, who make up a total of 40% of the refugees there? Surely the Israeli army is powerful enough. So where are they?

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Totalitarian, centralised state based power system and the majority of them thought of themselves as Christians... so, neither Marxist nor Atheist.

Even if we accept that men like Hitler are totally cynical about everything aside from their own power and had no religious belief and men like Himmler were strange occultists, the prominent use of Christian terms and symbolism breaks any hope of defining Nazi Germany as atheist.

Hitler HATED communism, in fact he thought the Jews were responsible for communism(and in a way they were with Karl Marx) , but he was an extreme socialist and totalitarian. Hitler praised socialism for the German people and deemed it as the way to break free from communism. So as many socialists would like to deny it, they can't, since Hitler was a big proponent of it and even named his party after it, the National SOCIALIST Germans workers party.

Hilter was not a christian, his parents raised him Catholic but he grew away from it quickly and deemed christianity another "invention of the Jews" and similar to Boshlievism. He was very interested in the occult however as well as relics and it was deemed that he had the Spear of Destiny(the spear that went into Christs side) in his possession.

 

[tanzanos]

Why on earth is the OT included in Christianity? The OT is probably the most Evil religious book ever written. If Christianity rid itself of the OT then it can actually become a kinder gentler religion.

Morals do not a religion make; for that would be self conflicting: Religion is supposed to remain static, while morals change to reflect society's norms.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Why on earth is the OT included in Christianity? The OT is probably the most Evil religious book ever written. If Christianity rid itself of the OT then it can actually become a kinder gentler religion.

Morals do not a religion make; for that would be self conflicting: Religion is supposed to remain static, while morals change to reflect society's norms.

Actually, it would be considered a collection of books. And I am sure somewhere out there another one exist... if not let's have Scientology write one!

 

[tanzanos]

if not let's have Scientology write one!

Yes on: "How to brainwash converts into giving us more money and then kill them" (new version of scientology bible).

 

[TheBear]

Mods - go ahead and close this thread. I wouldn't want to hurt anyone's precious feelings with my personal opinions.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Hitler HATED communism, in fact he thought the Jews were responsible for communism(and in a way they were with Karl Marx) , but he was an extreme socialist and totalitarian. Hitler praised socialism for the German people and deemed it as the way to break free from communism. So as many socialists would like to deny it, they can't, since Hitler was a big proponent of it and even named his party after it, the National SOCIALIST Germans workers party.

Hilter was not a christian, his parents raised him Catholic but he grew away from it quickly and deemed christianity another "invention of the Jews" and similar to Boshlievism. He was very interested in the occult however as well as relics and it was deemed that he had the Spear of Destiny(the spear that went into Christs side) in his possession.

Great post.

Isn't it interesting how the generations since the end of World War Two are simply ignorant of the facts and are heading right back into a national socialist state for society? They are even thronging to its exalted leader as we write.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Mods - go ahead and close this thread. I wouldn't want to hurt anyone's precious feelings with my personal opinions.

Noitice MY threads getting closed and my posts getting deleted.

It appears you leftists are the ones that cry the loudest about their feelings getting hurt.

I wish they'd open an area to let us go at the way we should.

I'd like to see you guys with your maskes completely off. But in any regards, you anti's and non's get to inflict insult, vitriol and mocking far greater than your opposition is allowed.

I just keep responding to it the way any confident person should. Especially a confident Christian.

 

[TheBear]

Noitice MY threads getting closed and my posts getting deleted.

I wasn't paying attention to your problems. I was dealing with my own. Plus, discussing staff actions in the public forum is against the rules, (for some odd reason).

Anyway, I authored this thread, and it's my prerogative to have it closed. So, just stay out of it. My request was to the mods, not to you.

 

[b&wpac4]

Do unto others as they do to you: this is bible. Love, love all mankind. Follow Christ: this is bible. Hurt other, kill other, hate other: this is man, this is the Old Way, in old book. New Way, way of Jesus, say Love and be kind.

By "old book" do you mean the old testament?

 

[b&wpac4]

Yes. Old Testament, old book.

I'm not picking on you, just curious.

Are you suggesting that the OT is of man and not of God? It's hard to tell based on what you said before.