Biblical impossibility of evolution

[dad]

The offspring of a species, if I have it right it where the changes take place in this present world. It is also where science assumes that the changes happened for evolution at all times. (no?)

In the bible, we see John the Baptist gave his first prophesy while in the womb. He started kicking and going nuts soon as the Messiah, also in the womb got near! We also see Jacob and Esau fighting constantly in the womb, and this again was a prophesy of the Arab and Jewish fighting that would go on from the two nations that would come from the offspring.

Often, the Almighty through an angel or prophet spoke of offspring not yet born as well. This means that evolution could not possibly have been responsible for the changes, since God was so involved. This means selection comes from God, not nature.

I am not aware of any science that evidences any natural selection in the deep past, when most things that changed evolved and adapted did so..! Therefore, all that is left is looking at the present world and how it now works (that they can perceive) and projecting that onto the far past, to explain different lifeforms.

 

[Golden Yak]

's not just the physical mutations though - natural selection also involves whether or not the changes will allow that lifeform to survive and thrive in the world, and in doing so pass on those changes to future generations. So they need to get out and compete and live and reproduce as part of it.

Often, the Almighty through an angel or prophet spoke of offspring not yet born as well.

Being involved 'often' in speaking to an unborn person does not mean he was involved in every single physical change in all living creatures - with a system of random mutation, he doesn't need to be.

 

[Tuddrussell]

The offspring of a species, if I have it right it where the changes take place in this present world. It is also where science assumes that the changes happened for evolution at all times. (no?)

Yes, evolution does not happen to an individual. It happens to a gene pool, however any difference between a child and its parents can not be said to be evolution.

It is only a mutation untill it can be observed to effect gene frequencies in a population. (From what I understand anyway,)

In the bible, we see John the Baptist gave his first prophesy while in the womb. He started kicking and going nuts soon as the Messiah, also in the womb got near! We also see Jacob and Esau fighting constantly in the womb, and this again was a prophesy of the Arab and Jewish fighting that would go on from the two nations that would come from the offspring.

Often, the Almighty through an angel or prophet spoke of offspring not yet born as well. This means that evolution could not possibly have been responsible for the changes, since God was so involved. This means selection comes from God, not nature.

You assume too much.

First you assume that the bible is true, and then that it is literally true.

Next you assume that God exists, and that He would not allow evolution to happen while he's watching. (Maybe you think that evolution is shy?)

You then assume that God has an active role in deciding who lives and dies, and how.

Maybe He just lets things play out naturally, it wouldn't make a difference anyway because He knows how things will turn out.

This means that He can set up the universe from the very beginning in such a way that all the important things that have to happen will happen.

Saying that God will do this, or will not do this is kind of presumptuous. Doesn't the bible teach against such things?

I am not aware of any science that evidences any natural selection in the deep past, when most things that changed evolved and adapted did so..!

Archaeology, biology, genetics...

Therefore, all that is left is looking at the present world and how it now works (that they can perceive) and projecting that onto the far past, to explain different lifeforms.

Yes, and you're reading a book written thousands of years ago and projecting it on the present without changing the context. Nothing is perfect, we're all human and to err is human.

The thing of it is, we can reasonably assume that the rules here and now are the same everywhere and everywhen because in order for them to be different something would have to change them. Everything has a reason, whether it be natural forces or divine intervention.

 

[dad]

's not just the physical mutations though - natural selection also involves whether or not the changes will allow that lifeform to survive and thrive in the world, and in doing so pass on those changes to future generations. So they need to get out and compete and live and reproduce as part of it.

One could have said the same thing in Jacob or John's day. The thing is, what applies to a grasshopper perhaps does not apply to the people and offspring listed.

Being involved 'often' in speaking to an unborn person does not mean he was involved in every single physical change in all living creatures - with a system of random mutation, he doesn't need to be.

So does this mean you admit that God was and is involved in growth of human offspring, but you just 'feel' that it is a limited involvement?

 

[dad]

Yes, evolution does not happen to an individual. It happens to a gene pool, however any difference between a child and its parents can not be said to be evolution.

No? So how many times a grandkid would one have to be to have the changes attributed to evolution?

It is only a mutation untill it can be observed to effect gene frequencies in a population. (From what I understand anyway,)

So a mutation is of less rank and position in the evo chain. OK.

You assume too much.

Don't ever assume that.

First you assume that the bible is true, and then that it is literally true.

And..??? What, you assume it isn't?

Next you assume that God exists, and that He would not allow evolution to happen while he's watching. (Maybe you think that evolution is shy?)

And you what...assume that billions of people are insane who met Him and saw His works, and read the records don't exist!? You seem to insinuate that the offspring could evolve before birth, and that God just is a silent observer?

You then assume that God has an active role in deciding who lives and dies, and how.

This is news?

Maybe He just lets things play out naturally, it wouldn't make a difference anyway because He knows how things will turn out.

No. He says that before we were offspring He knew us..!

This means that He can set up the universe from the very beginning in such a way that all the important things that have to happen will happen.

From doubting God, to total predestination, you are all over the map son.

Saying that God will do this, or will not do this is kind of presumptuous. Doesn't the bible teach against such things?

No. It teaches He done all sorts of things.

Archaeology, biology, genetics...

Santa, dental work, fat people, nasty weather...etc etc...point? What a random list?

Yes, and you're reading a book written thousands of years ago and projecting it on the present without changing the context. Nothing is perfect, we're all human and to err is human.

But offspring are divine...and evolution and natural selection are not a big factor.

The thing of it is, we can reasonably assume that the rules here and now are the same everywhere and everywhen because in order for them to be different something would have to change them.

Well, then we can assume all creatures are the same too, because something would have had to change them?? You better deal in reality.

Everything has a reason, whether it be natural forces or divine intervention.

..and...so..??? This relates to what?

 

[Golden Yak]

One could have said the same thing in Jacob or John's day. The thing is, what applies to a grasshopper perhaps does not apply to the people and offspring listed.

Different species interact with each other and the environment in different ways, to be sure.

So does this mean you admit that God was and is involved in growth of human offspring, but you just 'feel' that it is a limited involvement?

I don't believe in God, so I don't think he's ever involved in anything at all. I am saying that if he was involved in 'speaking' to certain offspring, however 'often', it doesn't necessarily mean he's involved in the formation of all life.

You're going from 'God talks to certain babies' to 'God shapes the flesh of all creatures'. That's quite the leap in my eyes. I don't see how you're getting the idea that physical changes are being carried out in all lifeforms by God 'speaking' to a few human unborn, via a secondary party no less.

Though even if it's true that God determines the physical form every life will take at the moment of its conception, as I said evolution involves creatures passing on their changes to future generations - they have to get out into the world and compete and reproduce. It not just about what you're born with, it's about how effective a lifeform it makes you.

 

[Split Rock]

Hey dad... I've been trying to get you and your ilk to do choice #4 for a while now. Remember.. the deserted island with no nasty, bad, godless, in-the-box, fish bowl science is just waiting for you....

 

[Tuddrussell]

One could have said the same thing in Jacob or John's day. The thing is, what applies to a grasshopper perhaps does not apply to the people and offspring listed.

Yes, but there would have to be a reason why it does not apply. It just doesn't, or because God did it are non-answers.

If all animals except humans, do something there must be a reason that humans are not doing it.

 

[Tuddrussell]

So a mutation is of less rank and position in the evo chain. OK.

No, a mutation is a change in genetics. Evolution is a change in gene frequencies. Mutations are fundamental to evolution, in much the same way that words are fundamental to a novel.

And..??? What, you assume it isn't?

Well, I am a skeptic... so yeah.

And you what...assume that billions of people are insane who met Him and saw His works, and read the records don't exist!?

No one met God, because no one can see God and live. It's in the bible.

You seem to insinuate that the offspring could evolve before birth, and that God just is a silent observer?

Idividuals do not evolve. Ever. Populations do.

No. He says that before we were offspring He knew us..!

He is supposedly omnicient, that means he knows everything forever and has always known everything. Regardless of evolution.

From doubting God, to total predestination, you are all over the map son.

Total predestination is a natural consequence of an all knowing God.

I don't believe in Superman, but I can still think about him as if he were. At least in the context of the DCU.

No. It teaches He done all sorts of things.

Yes, but you saying he would do something, or would not do something that is not in the bible is heresy.

Santa, dental work, fat people, nasty weather...etc etc...point? What a random list?

None of those provide evidence of evolution.

But offspring are divine...and evolution and natural selection are not a big factor.

[Citation Needed]

Well, then we can assume all creatures are the same too, because something would have had to change them?? You better deal in reality.

Random mutation changes them. Duh.

..and...so..??? This relates to what?

To the immediately previous point.

 

[dad]

Hey dad... I've been trying to get you and your ilk to do choice #4 for a while now. Remember.. the deserted island with no nasty, bad, godless, in-the-box, fish bowl science is just waiting for you....

Mary and Joseph separated from Israel, so it seems it may be a good concept in real ungodly situations. Christians have no home country here. However, if there were some provinces, countries or states that were real godly in key areas, why not migrate there? Even in the old US, I wonder what would happen if for example, 10 states all agreed to secede from the union, and allow prayer and God in schools, outlaw same sex stuff, killing offspring, etc? Could be entertaining.

One would think that believers would be, as the old movie said..

 

[Jazer]

Maybe He just lets things play out naturally,.

Do you think you know more then people that have a Doctorate of Theology? Or are they just maybe guessing at it also?

 

[Tuddrussell]

Do you think you know more then people that have a Doctorate of Theology? Or are they just maybe guessing at it also?

Keyword: Maybe. Plus all people are flawed, that's fundamental to Christian doctorine is it not? All people include the ones you mentioned.

At any rate, appeals to authority do not work on people who do not respect authority. I respect people based on who they are, not what they have done or what they can do.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

We also see Jacob and Esau fighting constantly in the womb, and this again was a prophesy of the Arab and Jewish fighting that would go on from the two nations that would come from the offspring.

Actually the descendants of Esau are not Arabs.

 

[dad]

Yes, but there would have to be a reason why it does not apply. It just doesn't, or because God did it are non-answers.

Yes, but there would have to be a reason why it does apply. It just does, or because you feel there is no God are non-answers.

If all animals except humans, do something there must be a reason that humans are not doing it.

Right, so what is that reason, is what we are looking at. I haven't seen too many offspring of donkeys prophesying, you?

 

[dad]

Different species interact with each other and the environment in different ways, to be sure.

Not like that is saying much.

I don't believe in God, so I don't think he's ever involved in anything at all. I am saying that if he was involved in 'speaking' to certain offspring, however 'often', it doesn't necessarily mean he's involved in the formation of all life.

So He might be involved in some, and is a respecter of offspring in your mind. OK. He actually is no respecter of persons, so you have no support.

You're going from 'God talks to certain babies' to 'God shapes the flesh of all creatures'. That's quite the leap in my eyes. I don't see how you're getting the idea that physical changes are being carried out in all lifeforms by God 'speaking' to a few human unborn, via a secondary party no less.

Well, if the creator has His hand on human offspring, as the evidence indicates, then why would we assume that this divine selection is not normal?

Though even if it's true that God determines the physical form every life will take at the moment of its conception, as I said evolution involves creatures passing on their changes to future generations - they have to get out into the world and compete and reproduce. It not just about what you're born with, it's about how effective a lifeform it makes you.

Can you show us some changes that are being passed on to future humans as we speak?

 

[dad]

No, a mutation is a change in genetics. Evolution is a change in gene frequencies. Mutations are fundamental to evolution, in much the same way that words are fundamental to a novel.

So how can we tell if your offspring have a change in gene frequencies?

Well, I am a skeptic... so yeah.

One needs more than skepticism to qualify as knowledge and science.

No one met God, because no one can see God and live. It's in the bible.

He spoke to many, sometimes in Person, such as Moses, howbeit somewhat veiled in form and nature.

Idividuals do not evolve. Ever. Populations do.

So show us a human population that evolved..? Or is that just pi in the sky?

He is supposedly omnicient, that means he knows everything forever and has always known everything. Regardless of evolution.

So? He knows when He created living man and He told us.

Total predestination is a natural consequence of an all knowing God. Regardless of evolution.

Yes, but you saying he would do something, or would not do something that is not in the bible is heresy.

So sue me. What it it I said that is heresy by the way?

None of those provide evidence of evolution.

Well, if the things you listed do, you better show where and how. That is the point of reasoned discussion.
[Citation Needed]

Random mutation changes them. Duh.

No one asked what changes 'them' now. We want to see what changed them in the past when changes happened big time. Obviously random anything had squat to do with offspring of humans doing stuff before birth.

 

[dad]

Actually the descendants of Esau are not Arabs.

OK, so who are they?

 

[Tuddrussell]

Yes, but there would have to be a reason why it does apply. It just does, or because you feel there is no God are non-answers.

Why does natural selection occur?

Right, so what is that reason, is what we are looking at. I haven't seen too many offspring of donkeys prophesying, you?

Humanity evolves, humans do not. Why should a donkey be able to prophesize? I have never seen anything do that, and I'm willing to bet that you haven't either.

 

[Tuddrussell]

So how can we tell if your offspring have a change in gene frequencies?

...Gene frequencies change in populations, a change in an individual is a mutation.

One needs more than skepticism to qualify as knowledge and science.

Yes, but one generally does need skepticism to be a skeptic which is alll I claimed to be.

He spoke to many, sometimes in Person, such as Moses, howbeit somewhat veiled in form and nature.

[Citation Needed]

So show us a human population that evolved..? Or is that just pi in the sky?

WE are a population that evolved.

So? He knows when He created living man and He told us.

He knows everything, that means that nothing can ever happen unless he willed it to happen. Because he made everything, everything can only go out one way. The way he wills.

So sue me. What it it I said that is heresy by the way?

Everything a heretic says is heresy. Even a heretic such as yourself should understand that.

Well, if the things you listed do, you better show where and how. That is the point of reasoned discussion.

I am not an expert in any of the feilds, you'd have to ask them. They do however have evidence. Otherwise the theory of evolution would be the hypothesis of evolution, which it isn't.

No one asked what changes 'them' now. We want to see what changed them in the past when changes happened big time. Obviously random anything had squat to do with offspring of humans doing stuff before birth.

Random mutation is what changes them now, in the past, and in the future.

 

[dad]

Why does natural selection occur?

differ in abilities

not alike

pass traits


That has no bearing on the nature of offspring in the bible, or that you have proven here. What is this, a guilt by association with animals attempt?

Humanity evolves, humans do not.

That makes little sense. If some men evolved to have darker skin in sunny hot areas, how does that fit your little scheme?

Why should a donkey be able to prophesize?

Good question. But the unborn offspring of men did. Stop comparing us to animals then.