Biblical Faith – Mary – The Eucharist

[Knowledge3]

One of the reasons I am converting to Orthodoxy is Sola Scriptura.

 

[racer]

Augustine has a strong emphasis of the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist and how it is the same sacrifice offered by Christ and Liturgy/Mass which is also found throughout the Fathers of the early Christian church. Schaff explains it here.

"It is not a new sacrifice added to that of the cross, but a daily, unbloody repetition and perpetual application of that ONE ONLY sacrifice. [Contr Faust Manich 1.xx.18 Latin given].

I'm afraid you still do not get what he is saying. He is saying that even though "sacrament" is called the same as the event/person it represents, and we know it is not the very same event, those who identify it in such a manner are not speaking incorrectly or dishonestly. Let me repost it:

"You know that in ordinary parlance we often say, when Easter is approaching, 'Tomorrow or the day after is the Lord's Passion,' although He suffered so many years ago, and His passion was endured once for all time.

Start with this comment. We know that the Lord's pasion happened some 2000 years ago. However, we still identify it as such and technically are not wrong for doing so.

In like manner, on Easter Sunday, we say, 'This day the Lord rose from the dead,' although so many years have passed since His resurrection. But no one is so foolish as to accuse us of falsehood when we use these phrases, for this reason, that we give such names to these days on the ground of a likeness between them and the days on which the events referred to actually transpired, the day being called the day of that event, although it is not the very day on which the event took place, but one corresponding to it by the revolution of the same time of the year, and the event itself being said to take place on that day, because, although it really took place long before, it is on that day sacramentally celebrated.

Was not Christ once for all offered up in His own person as a sacrifice? and yet, is He not likewise offered up in the sacrament as a sacrifice, not only in the special solemnities of Easter, but also daily among our congregations; so that the man who, being questioned, answers that He is offered as a sacrifice in that ordinance, declares what is strictly true?

Now here's the kicker:

For if sacraments had not some points of real resemblance to the things of which they are the sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all. In most cases, moreover, they do in virtue of this likeness bear the names of the realities which they resemble. As, therefore, in a certain manner the sacrament of Christ's body is Christ's body, and the sacrament of Christ's blood is Christ's blood,' in the same manner the sacrament of faith is faith." (Augustine, Letter 98:9)

Are you going to continue to ignore the significance of this quote?

 

[racer]

Schaff's has editorial comments about the "perversion" of the Sacrifice of the Mass, it shows Schaff's extreme anti-Catholic bias. I see none of that in Protestant scholars J.N.D. Kelly and Darwell Stone who simply report the historical facts as they see them and statements of the Church Fathers. Schaff does very little quoting but a lot of anti-Catholic preaching.

Hey, you're the one who quoted Schaff. I assumed you found him to be a credible and trustworthy source.

 

[orthodoxy]

One of the reasons I am converting to Orthodoxy is Sola Scriptura.

Glory to God!

May your journey be fruitful and continue in the peace that is from above.

Many years!

kyril

 

[orthodoxy]

No, but Jesus explicitly and clearly discouraged any type of elevating Mary above other Christians.

Where is that verse please?


According to an angel Mary is highly favored. According to the Holy Spirit speaking through Elizabeth Mary is "blessed among women". thus "all generations" of true christians call her "blessed".

According to Jesus Christ the "first" will be the servant of all. Who is the greatest servant of all if not Mary who served all mankind by bringing forth from her womb the incarnated Son of the living God?

What we see in your answer is an "equality" that does not exist in the eternal Kingdom for all things flow from the Father. There is certainly a heirarchical positioning in the procession in the kingdom of God. If not then you must place your self equal with God.....

Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ. God the Father in Heaven does not have a mother.

Jesus Christ is God. Not God the Father correct and I never implied the Father has a mother, nor is the incarnation that of the Trinity. By your remark you seem to imply Jesus Christ is not God.... thus I can only assume you think Jesus is a creation of the Father. This is why the Church insists and protects the Dogma that states Jesus is God by that Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus Christ is "the Lord God". Who is the "Lord" Elizabeth speaks of by the Holy Spirit if not the "Lord" our God?

Mary bore Jesus like most mother's bear their children.

Yes except being born of a mans seed and pain in child birth. Her pain came at the cross. Certainly Mary gave the Lord God birth through the incarnation by means of the birth canal, to deny this would deny His complete human nature joining with the divine. I never denied the full humanity of Jesus Christ in any way.

What Christian would have denied God?

Christians deny God every day when they sin and turn from His life....

How does being blessed elevate her above all others who are blessed?

There is obviously a heirarchy in the heavenly procession. There are seats for those at the right and left hand of Jesus Christ who is seated at the right hand of the Father. The Aposltes have thrones in the Kingdom in which you will not sit. A parable of the Lord says why do you sit in a lofty seat only to be humiliated and removed to allow one greater than you to take that seat? Go sit in a seat where you are humble and God will exalt you..... plainly examples of heiracrhy in the heavenly procession.

She gave Him physical life as a flesh and blood human just as all mothers give their children life.

Yep. The first human to do the will of God in saying "be it unto me according to thy word". Something all christians should aspire to and not say "my will be done Lord" stand back and watch.....

Not sure what the mystery is . . . . .

That is why it is a mystery..... dont you like mysteries? or must you intellecualize everything and answer all questions with questions....

If you mean that's what God planned all along, then of course . . . . .

Yes Mary, the Mother of all christianity was in the heart of God from the beginning......

Mary was human like you and me. I'm sure since God found her suitable to bear Christ she was a virtuous and honorable woman, however she was not sinless.

Can you give me one scripture showing Mary committing an act of sin?


Mary inherited death from Adam and she died like all humanity yet no man MUST commit sins, not Mary, not me, not you......we can choose to NOT sin yet we will surely die....


If you can show me one act of Mary committing a sin I will believe you.....

Yes, but I don't consider "communion of the blood of Christ" and "blood of Christ" to be synonamous.

Unfortunate another mystery wasted on the intellect of the human mind... The orthodox see no differentiation between Jesus Christ, His Body and Blood and His Church.... all are one and undivided....

Yes, but not the same as "the body of Christ."

Ontologically there is no differentiation between Jesus Christ the Son of God, Jesus Christ the Son of Man, His Body and Blood in the Eucharist and His Church. One in the same, undivided. Saul said "who are you Lord" Jesus said "I am Jesus" when Saul is killing "the Church". Jesus saw no differeance why should a true Christian?

They ceased to walk with him because they were unbelievers. Being so, they did not understand Jesus correctly. It was just His talk about "flesh and blood" that scared them away, they marvelled at His nerve to claim to be the Son of God.

They too missed the mystery and understood Him to say they should become cannibals and eat His flesh and blood.... this was against jewish law thus they walked away yet later Jesus placed Himself in Bread and wine. Bread and wine is used over and over to make covenants with God....see Abraham on the plains of Mamre....


I need to go thus I will need to answer the rest of your answering questions later........

OK Back and to continue answering questions of questions...........

What is your point?

My point is Jesus is telling "followers" in John 6 to become cannibals which is taboo in the jewish faith yet if they would have hung out with Jesus a bit longer they would have seen in the "last supper" God turn bread and wine into His body and blood for the "bloodless sacrifice" as the high priest in the order of Melchisedec. God places Himself, His most pure body and blessed blood in Bread and Wine. Something God cannot do? It seems to me this is what you are claiming.

God can make a donkey talk, stones sing His glory, a rock flow water, a dove carry His Spirit but cannot place Himself in bread and wine? Truely a limited god one worships if He is limited in this "mystery" that was hidden before all ages....

A symbol does not make you sick, it is the partaking of communion unworthily that will make you sick. It doesn't have to be literal flesh and blood to prove the severity. It amazes me how easily some people have not trouble playing down the reality of the spiritual element of communion.

Verily, verily, Taking the firey coal of the Body and Blood of the living God in Christ into ones body while believing it is not truely His flesh and blood will indeed kill you..... Thus Mary lived and so shall we have live in us.....what amazes me is how people trivialize the most precious things of God Jesus Christ let claimed christians...Himself...

No, it's not the rememberance that makes anybody sick.

Indeed it is by taking unworthily His most pure body and most precious blood into thy most impure mouth that sickens one.... certainly it is not the act of remembering the last supper that makes on sick....

. . . . not a symbol . . . . but, maybe a tamborine . . . .

Behind every good tamborine is a reality......winky winky

And, why must one believe that the bread and wine physically become "flesh and blood," to acknowledge the importance?

This “solemn memorial” of rememberance is the "riches of the glory", this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in us, our hope of glory.

or as St. Irenaeus of Lyons 2nd Century Christian Martyr stated on the Eucharist;

"Our Faith is in accord with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist confirms our Faith."

Really, I refer you back to St. Augusine . . . . .

Blessed Augustine while being a teacher in the west is quite far from the teachings of the early Church fathers in the east. Fact is much of what Augustine says is not remotely close to the teachings of the early church fathers concerning Jesus Christ nor His bloodless "rememberance"......

Like I said, see Augustine:

For if sacraments had notsome points of real resemblance to the things of which they are the sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all. In most cases, moreover, they do in virtue of this likeness bear the names of the realities which they resemble. As, therefore, in a certain manner the sacrament of Christ's body is Christ's body, and the sacrament of Christ's blood is Christ's blood,' in the same manner the sacrament of faith is faith." (Augustine, Letter 98:9)

Behind every good and pure "symbol" is a reality just as Augustine says here....

Let us listen to an even earlier Church father on this true flesh and blood reality...

Justin Martyr 2nd Century Christian Martyr on the Eucharist

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone.

Where would one fing this information?

Strongs Concordance.... start at 363 and do your homework from there. I am not going to do your homework for you. Repetition 303 or repeating the same act as Jesus Christ in Luke 22:19. We repeat the same work of Jesus Christ, it is not merely remembering Him but repeating Him....

Any sources for this study?

Try Strongs Concordance for a start then read some early Church fathers and their understanding http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

Study to show thy self approved is more than reading thy bible under the power of thine own understanding....

All mothers are directly and eternally linked to their children.

Even those that kill theirs children in the womb? One would do well to understand the word "all" before one makes such a comparitive statement of all motherhood to that of Mary and the fire she bore in mer most pure womb......

Mary is certainly deserving of being honored, celebrated and remembered as are all martyrs.

if thou were a true saint thou would honor Mary not demote and degrade her to the level of a common female...


Kyril

 

[racer]

Wow, someone actually took the time to respond to my post! Hello, Kyril!

Where is that verse please?

I’ll quote them for you, even though you’ll launch some dialogue as to why these verses don’t actually say what they say. Or, you’ll deny they are explicit. But, what else is new?

Luk 11:27; And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
Luk 11:28; But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Mat 12:46-50; While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mar 3:31-35; There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

According to an angel Mary is highly favored. According to the Holy Spirit speaking through Elizabeth Mary is "blessed among women". thus "all generations" of true christians call her "blessed".

But, we’re quoting Jesus here. Nobody denies Mary was blessed.

According to Jesus Christ the "first" will be the servant of all. Who is the greatest servant of all if not Mary who served all mankind by bringing forth from her womb the incarnated Son of the living God?

I think it goes something like, “the first shall be last, the last shall be first . . .” Was Mary ever considered to be the “last?”

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

What we see in your answer is an "equality" that does not exist in the eternal Kingdom for all things flow from the Father

I have clearly shown that Jesus established this “equality.”

This is why the Church insists and protects the Dogma that states Jesus is God by that Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus Christ is "the Lord God". Who is the "Lord" Eliabeth speaks of by the Holy Spirit if not the "Lord" our God?

Do you really think I haven’t suffered this circular argument before? Look, you know what I’m saying and I know what you’re saying . . . .

Jesus Christ is God. Not God the Father correct and I never implied the Father has a mother, nor is the incarnation that of the Trinity. By your remark you seem to imply Jesus Christ is not God....

You know better than that, and that accusation is an obvious distraction from the argument. If you consider Jesus’ to be God, to be as significant as God, why do you find it insufficient to identify Mary as the Mother of Jesus Christ?

thus I can only assume you think Jesus is a creation of the Father.

You may assume whatever you want. But, I doubt that you truly believe that is what I’m saying.

This is why the Church insists and protects the Dogma that states Jesus is God by that Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus Christ is "the Lord God". Who is the "Lord" Eliabeth speaks of by the Holy Spirit if not the "Lord" our God?

Do you really think I haven’t suffered this circular argument before? Look, you know what I’m saying and I know what you’re saying . . . .

Christians deny God every day when they sin and turn from His life....

You know, Mary was not ASKED to bear Christ. She was told it would happen, and abortions weren’t the going thing in her day . . . . . She really didn’t have a choice.

There is obviously a heirarchy in the heavenly procession. There are seats for those at the right and left hand of Jesus Christ who is seated at the right hand of the Father. The Aposltes have thrones in the Kingdom in which you will not sit. A parable of the Lord says why do you sit in a lofty seat only to be humiliated and removed to allow one greater than you to take that seat? Go sit in a seat where you are humble and God will exalt you..... plainly examples of heiracrhy in the heavenly procession.

This argument may have some merit, but it’s certainly not obvious. We do not know from what we are told regarding who sits right and left of God and of the thrones of the apostles that there will be a definitive hierarchy following that. But, if it’s as clear as you say, where does Mary sit? We know that she comes after the apostles, so her status is not nearly as esteemed as you would claim.

Yep. The first human to do the will of God in saying "be it unto me according to thy word". Something all christians should aspire to and not say "my will be done Lord" stand back and watch.....

As I pointed out, she really did not have a choice.

That is why it is a mystery..... dont you like mysteries? or must you intellecualize everything and answer all questions with questions....

Now I’ve seen it all . . . . an orthodox accusing me of “intellectualizing” things . .

Can you give me one scripture showing Mary committing an act of sin?

What I can do is state a fact . . . Mary was human, therefore, she sinned. It kind of defeats the purpose if it were as you say? Jesus was born of a woman to show that “man” can defeat/overcome sin.

If you can show me one act of Mary committing a sin I will believe you.....

You can’t substantiate any of the claims you make regarding Mary, but you want evidence from me? I’m sorry, but the Bible says so little about Mary, that I can’t show you that.
Can you show me how you substantiate her sinlessness?

Unfortunate another mystery wasted on the intellect of the human mind... The orthodox see no differentiation between Jesus Christ, His Body and Blood and His Church.... all are one and undivided....

Semantics, it all depends on how the terms are being used.

Ontologically there is no differentiation between Jesus Christ the Son of God, Jesus Christ the Son of Man, His Body and Blood in the Eucharist and His Church. One in the same, undivided. Saul said "who are you Lord" Jesus said "I am Jesus" when Saul is killing "the Church". Jesus saw no differeance why should a true Christian?

His body and blood is not in the Eucharist because as we all know, He sits at the right hand of God in heaven.

They too missed the mystery and understood Him to say they should become cannibals and eat His flesh and blood.... this was against jewish law thus they walked away yet later Jesus placed Himself in Bread and wine. Bread and wine is used over and over to make covenants with God....see Abraham on the plains of Mamre....

You agree that they misunderstood Him?


See ya, and look forward to our continued discussion.

 

[orthodoxy]

Wow, someone actually took the time to respond to my post! Hello, Kyril!

Hi....Occassionally I get the hook by way of the delete button wielded by the man behind the curtain....

I’ll quote them for you, even though you’ll launch some dialogue as to why these verses don’t actually say what they say. Or, you’ll deny they are explicit. But, what else is new?

Try not to project others upon me nor guess what I will do...my wife does that and it only causes chaos and frustration......

Luk 11:27; And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
Luk 11:28; But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

The most pure Mary and the mother of my Lord heard the angel and said "be it unto me according to thy word"... not only did Jesus Christ honor His mother in this statement but lifted her higher than all humanity in that she heard the word of God and did it, literally, do you deny Mary heard the word of God and did it?

I challenge you to state to God "thy will be done in me" .... but beware that God will do His will in you.. a dangerous place to stand is in the fire of God lest one gets burned....

Note Mary took this most pure fire into her womb and life... the first christian, indeed....

Mat 12:46-50; While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Another glaring example of Mary doing the will of God by saying "be it unto me according to thy word"... Who is the mother of the Christian faith but the first to "do the will of God"?


Again you have validated my point... Mary by hearing the word of God and stating "be it unto me according to thy word" she is "the mother" that truely and most surely did the will of God in her most pure life...


thou will lift thy self higher than the mother of my Lord only by saying "thy will be done in my life" then I will believe thou art my "brother or sister"....


What does this entail? Sell everything you own, all possessions, all opinions, all your free will, sell all, lift up that cross and follow Jesus Christ to "why has thou forsaken me".... then die and resurrect to a new life in Him....

a repeat that gets old.... are you telling me Jesus committed an act of sin by breaking the command to "honor thy mother and thy father", surely you are not saying Jesus gave disrespect to Mary rejecting her as His mother... are you?

But, we’re quoting Jesus here. Nobody denies Mary was blessed.

Are you sure? Maybe you are saying Jesus is a sinner that needs a savior breaking the commands of His Father, eh?


If Mary is blessed then why are you placing a burden upon her she need not carry? Is thy own cross to heavy?

I think it goes something like, “the first shall be last, the last shall be first . . .” Was Mary ever considered to be the “last?”

I am certain Mary thought of her self as a handmadien thus "servant" of God, lowly as one may see this, she was highly favored by God...


http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat011.html#11

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Psalms 45:9, Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.


In Mark 10:37 and Matthew 20:21-23 the mother of James and John and the two sons argue who should sit at the right hand of Jesus in Glory. Jesus told them it was not His to give but was prepared for another by His Father.

Psalms 45:9, Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.


Here is the person who sits at the right hand of the Son of God, Mary His Mother!


God the Father had already reserved the spot for the one that bore His Son for our salvation, honored above all women, blessed by all generations of the sons of God, Mary the Theotokos (God bearer).


Who else would be more highly honored? As you have shown, John the baptist has the seat to the left of His savior..... If God can make men kings and priests (Revelations 1:6) for all eternity, certainly God has every prerogative to crown Mary with higher honor in heaven’s royal procession.

I have clearly shown that Jesus established this “equality.”

Have you? Yet you missed the verse that plainly states "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.1 Corinthians 11:3


Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,


Thus we see the Head of Christ is God the Father and Christ is the head of the Church with Mary at the right and John at the left, we see twelve thrones of the Apostles and together with the martyrs and saints of the Church.....heirarchy of the Kingdom that is not fashioned by the will of man in the US Consitution that says "all men are created equal" for I am chief of sinners thus all men, even you, come before me and have a seat higher than my sinful soul....

Do you really think I haven’t suffered this circular argument before? Look, you know what I’m saying and I know what you’re saying . . . .

Do you o thou exalted one? Tell ya what.... you take my seat in heaven and I will stand....

You know better than that, and that accusation is an obvious distraction from the argument. If you consider Jesus’ to be God, to be as significant as God, why do you find it insufficient to identify Mary as the Mother of Jesus Christ?

She is mother of creation for all things were made by Him, for Him and through Him.... Mary is the mother of the Christian race.... I find your discription of Mary insufficent in any way...she is indiscribable and not worthy of my sinful words to discribe her glory much less to compare her to my lowly sinfilled soul. Mary the Mother of my God, Jesus Christ is more honorable than the cherubim and more glorious and beyond compare to the seraphim, without corruption she gave birth to God the word, the very Theotokos in her do I magnify, in her is all creation magnified to the Glory of God.

You may assume whatever you want. But, I doubt that you truly believe that is what I’m saying.

I assume nothing for I was once a Mary hating protestant that wanted to lower her to make myself look higher... your arguements are nothing new....been there, done that....

Do you really think I haven’t suffered this circular argument before? Look, you know what I’m saying and I know what you’re saying . . . .

How long must I suffer you?

You know, Mary was not ASKED to bear Christ. She was told it would happen, and abortions weren’t the going thing in her day . . . . . She really didn’t have a choice.

Boulderdash, poppycock, sillyness unending. God will not violate any man, woman or childs free will.....ever.....

This argument may have some merit, but it’s certainly not obvious. We do not know from what we are told regarding who sits right and left of God and of the thrones of the apostles that there will be a definitive hierarchy following that. But, if it’s as clear as you say, where does Mary sit? We know that she comes after the apostles, so her status is not nearly as esteemed as you would claim.

When one enters an Orthodox Church one sees Mary on the right in the Iconostas and John the Baptist sitting on the left of God on High, Jesus Christ, the King of Glory.... This is the choosing of the Father for they heard the word of God and did it.... if thou wilt thou can try to unseat them in humility by way of "hearing and doing"......

As I pointed out, she really did not have a choice.

God will force a man into His Kingdom? What kind of love forces love upon a man? Silly protestants Christianity....is for kids!

continued.....

 

[orthodoxy]

Now I’ve seen it all . . . . an orthodox accusing me of “intellectualizing” things . .

No accusation.....an observation....

What I can do is state a fact . . . Mary was human, therefore, she sinned. It kind of defeats the purpose if it were as you say? Jesus was born of a woman to show that “man” can defeat/overcome sin.

Fact? Where is it written in your bible alone theology that Mary sinned? I will wait while you look up one sin Mary commited.....

unless of course you mean to imply there are "FACTS" extracurricular to the bible and if so what other things can we gleen from other sources outside of the scripture that are facts?

You can’t substantiate any of the claims you make regarding Mary, but you want evidence from me? I’m sorry, but the Bible says so little about Mary, that I can’t show you that.
Can you show me how you substantiate her sinlessness?

She held the fire of God in her womb... if the Ark of the Convenant could not be touched lest one died then truely the Ark of Mary was most pure and free from sin....beware lest you continue to touch the Ark of God in such a demeaning and demoting manner unfit for a self proclaimed "saint of the most High" and friend of Jesus Christ, for thou stands on holy ground in Mary....

Semantics, it all depends on how the terms are being used.

typical protestant excuse for missing a mystery.... the bible says what it says and I believe it....

His body and blood is not in the Eucharist because as we all know, He sits at the right hand of God in heaven.

Yet Saul was persicuting Jesus Christ by killing the Christians on the Earth....

Acts 8:3, But Saul began to destroy the church.

Acts 9:4-5, He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?" "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.


Saul the great invisible man killer!

You agree that they misunderstood Him?

Yes I agree that those that "walked away" from Him and followed Him no more misunderstood what He was stating because they were ignorant of what was to come and trusted Him not...


What does that say to you?


I understand what He was saying and partake of His mystery.....



Check ya later


kyril

 

[ArcticFox]

Be careful about the phrase 'by faith alone.'

It gives a false impression if you take it to the most extreme. What it does NOT mean is that all you need is a moment of faith and then you are instantly and forever saved based on nothing but that faith. That is an extreme position on it.

I think many would be quite surprised to find out that many Protestant churches teach the continual need to remain in the truth. In fact, without denying sola fide at all, I believe that we must overcome to acquire eternal life.

The means of reconciling these truths are different and varied, and many choose to emphasize one to the detriment of the other. For example, the RCC and many Protestants will emphasize the need for continual striving and the need to overcome, to the detriment of verses that teach about our security in Christ that we will overcome. You can believe both truths and not talk out of both sides of your mouth.

My best suggestion for this would be to check out the teachings of John Piper. He does the best job of explaining these seemingly contradictory truths.

 

[orthodoxy]

Be careful about the phrase 'by faith alone.'

It gives a false impression if you take it to the most extreme. What it does NOT mean is that all you need is a moment of faith and then you are instantly and forever saved based on nothing but that faith. That is an extreme position on it.

I think many would be quite surprised to find out that many Protestant churches teach the continual need to remain in the truth. In fact, without denying sola fide at all, I believe that we must overcome to acquire eternal life.

The means of reconciling these truths are different and varied, and many choose to emphasize one to the detriment of the other. For example, the RCC and many Protestants will emphasize the need for continual striving and the need to overcome, to the detriment of verses that teach about our security in Christ that we will overcome. You can believe both truths and not talk out of both sides of your mouth.

My best suggestion for this would be to check out the teachings of John Piper. He does the best job of explaining these seemingly contradictory truths.

who is this directed at?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Where is it written in your bible alone theology that Mary sinned?

The same places as in your Bible, I'm sure. For example, "There is no one that does good, not even one" (Romans 3:12). "All have sinned and fall short" (Romans 3:23).


IMHO, unless you can provide solid biblical statement for Mary being excluded from that (like Hebrews 4:15 with Jesus), then there's no reason to exclude her (or me or you or any other).

The bible says what it says and I believe it....

We tend to have few (if any) difference on what the Bible says. We tend to agree on the words there. It's all these invisible "words" that some insist they "see" that seem to be the problem, IMHO.



Thank you for the discussion.


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[Trento]

The same places as in your Bible, I'm sure. For example, "There is no one that does good, not even one" (Romans 3:12). "All have sinned and fall short" (Romans 3:23).


IMHO, unless you can provide solid biblical statement for Mary being excluded from that (like Hebrews 4:15 with Jesus), then there's no reason to exclude her (or me or you or any other).









We tend to have few (if any) difference on what the Bible says. We tend to agree on the words there. It's all these invisible "words" that some insist they "see" that seem to be the problem, IMHO.



Thank you for the discussion.


Pax!


- Josiah



.

Genesis 3:15 is a prophecy of the Messiah ("Seed of the woman") and His Virgin Mother (the "woman"). Notice that God says "I will put enmity between you (the serpent) and the woman", that is, between Satan and Mary! God foretold in the Garden that He would put enmity between the Devil and the Mother of the Messiah. Satan would be enemies not only with Mary's Son, but with Mary herself!
Now the Bible says that sin makes us enemies of God (Mt 12:30; Ro 5:8-10; James 4:4) and children of the Devil (Jn 8:44; I Jn 3:10). A sinner is not Satan's enemy, but his ally--even his "child", or seed! Were Mary ever a sinner, she would not be the devil's enemy, as God had decreed; she would have been the devil's daughter and the enemy of God-the enemy of her own Son! God's promise to put enmity between her and the ancient Serpent would then be a lie!
Yet God cannot lie, and His word always comes to pass (Is 55:10). So He did indeed put enmity between Satan and the Woman by preserving the Woman from all sin, original and actual. Mary is not a child of the Devil; by God's Will she is a daughter of God from the beginning of her existence and the ally of her Seed against the evil one.
In Luke 1:28, the angel Gabriel greets Mary as "full of grace". Protestant translations often render this as "highly favored", but this is a weak, inaccurate translation. The Greek term here is kecharitomene, a perfect present participle of the verb charitoo, which denotes "grace". A perfect participle indicates an action completed in the past with existing results, and a present participle denotes continuous or repeated action. So kecharitomene means "you who were and continue to be full of and completed in grace". Now grace is not mere unmerited favor, but God's gift of spiritual life and communion with Himself. Sin and grace are opposed (Romans 5:20-21), and grace saves us from sin (Eph 2:5, 8). So Mary's fullness of grace indicates a complete absence of sin. Thus Luke 1:28 provides a second hint at Mary's sinlessness.
So she is more than an average Human being. When was the last time God sent an Angel to tell a woman she would be the mother of His son?



If John 19:25-27 clearly parallels the first chapters of Genesis, with Mary in the "Eve-role", in Revelation 12 we find a specific parallel to Genesis 3:15:

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars...and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads...stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron (1-5). ​

Here, as in Genesis 3:15, we have a woman, a serpent/dragon and a male child who is born of (the seed of!) the woman. The dragon is Satan the "ancient serpent" (Rev 12:9), the woman's Seed/Son is Christ the New Adam, so the Woman is clearly the New Eve, the same Woman whose seed God foretold would crush the serpent's head. She who personifies Daughter Zion, the Old Testament People of God, here also represents Mother Church, the New Testament People of God. So this glorious Woman pf Revelation 12 clearly signifies the Virgin Mary, who gave birth to Jesus the New Adam. Once again, Mary is clearly shown to be the New Eve.

Then there is
Mary's Magnificat which was voiced just after Elizabeth greeted her as the Mother of the Lord. This was well before she gave birth to Jesus.

So the question to ask is....How can Mary be rejoicing in God her Savior, when the Savior was not yet even born, let alone completed His redemptive work on the cross. UNLESS, she was saved from her sin prior to this time. The angel called her "one having been already fully graced.

 

[orthodoxy]

The same places as in your Bible, I'm sure. For example, "There is no one that does good, not even one" (Romans 3:12). "All have sinned and fall short" (Romans 3:23).


IMHO, unless you can provide solid biblical statement for Mary being excluded from that (like Hebrews 4:15 with Jesus), then there's no reason to exclude her (or me or you or any other).









We tend to have few (if any) difference on what the Bible says. We tend to agree on the words there. It's all these invisible "words" that some insist they "see" that seem to be the problem, IMHO.



Thank you for the discussion.


Pax!


- Josiah



.

You missed my point.

Where in the bible is a sin of Mary discribed that cause the reformist to say Mary is sinless?

I understand we all are born under the curse of death that sin caused however this does not imply one MUST commit a sin unless you mean Adam's sin is owned by Mary, you and I.

I did not commit Adam's sin, I commit my own and own them as such....

Are you of the opinion that you must sin?

Are you of the opinion that Adam's sin you own?

Did we inherit Adam's specific sin or just the result in which the wages are death?

I accept the idea that man inheritied death due to Adam's sin but I reject the idea man MUST sin because if this were true then a human that commits no sin, such as the unborn fetus or a child still born would not and could not die....

kyril

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

he same places as in your Bible, I'm sure. For example, "There is no one that does good, not even one" (Romans 3:12). "All have sinned and fall short" (Romans 3:23).


IMHO, unless you can provide solid biblical statement for Mary being excluded from that (like Hebrews 4:15 with Jesus), then there's no reason to exclude her (or me or you or any other).









We tend to have few (if any) difference on what the Bible says. We tend to agree on the words there. It's all these invisible "words" that some insist they "see" that seem to be the problem, IMHO.



Thank you for the discussion.


Pax!


- Josiah

You missed my point.

Where in the bible is a sin of Mary discribed that cause the reformist to say Mary is sinless?

I think you missed the point.
The Bible does NOT say Mary was sinless.

It says "There is no one that does good, not even one" (Romans 3:12). "All have sinned and fall short" (Romans 3:23). Now, unless you can provide solid biblical statement for Mary being excluded from that (like Hebrews 4:15 with Jesus), then we're left with Mary being part of that "all."



Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[orthodoxy]

Genesis 3:15 is a prophecy of the Messiah ("Seed of the woman") and His Virgin Mother (the "woman"). Notice that God says "I will put enmity between you (the serpent) and the woman", that is, between Satan and Mary! God foretold in the Garden that He would put enmity between the Devil and the Mother of the Messiah. Satan would be enemies not only with Mary's Son, but with Mary herself!
Now the Bible says that sin makes us enemies of God (Mt 12:30; Ro 5:8-10; James 4:4) and children of the Devil (Jn 8:44; I Jn 3:10). A sinner is not Satan's enemy, but his ally--even his "child", or seed! Were Mary ever a sinner, she would not be the devil's enemy, as God had decreed; she would have been the devil's daughter and the enemy of God-the enemy of her own Son! God's promise to put enmity between her and the ancient Serpent would then be a lie!
Yet God cannot lie, and His word always comes to pass (Is 55:10). So He did indeed put enmity between Satan and the Woman by preserving the Woman from all sin, original and actual. Mary is not a child of the Devil; by God's Will she is a daughter of God from the beginning of her existence and the ally of her Seed against the evil one.
In Luke 1:28, the angel Gabriel greets Mary as "full of grace". Protestant translations often render this as "highly favored", but this is a weak, inaccurate translation. The Greek term here is kecharitomene, a perfect present participle of the verb charitoo, which denotes "grace". A perfect participle indicates an action completed in the past with existing results, and a present participle denotes continuous or repeated action. So kecharitomene means "you who were and continue to be full of and completed in grace". Now grace is not mere unmerited favor, but God's gift of spiritual life and communion with Himself. Sin and grace are opposed (Romans 5:20-21), and grace saves us from sin (Eph 2:5, 8). So Mary's fullness of grace indicates a complete absence of sin. Thus Luke 1:28 provides a second hint at Mary's sinlessness.
So she is more than an average Human being. When was the last time God sent an Angel to tell a woman she would be the mother of His son?



If John 19:25-27 clearly parallels the first chapters of Genesis, with Mary in the "Eve-role", in Revelation 12 we find a specific parallel to Genesis 3:15:

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars...and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads...stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron (1-5). ​

Here, as in Genesis 3:15, we have a woman, a serpent/dragon and a male child who is born of (the seed of!) the woman. The dragon is Satan the "ancient serpent" (Rev 12:9), the woman's Seed/Son is Christ the New Adam, so the Woman is clearly the New Eve, the same Woman whose seed God foretold would crush the serpent's head. She who personifies Daughter Zion, the Old Testament People of God, here also represents Mother Church, the New Testament People of God. So this glorious Woman pf Revelation 12 clearly signifies the Virgin Mary, who gave birth to Jesus the New Adam. Once again, Mary is clearly shown to be the New Eve.

Then there is
Mary's Magnificat which was voiced just after Elizabeth greeted her as the Mother of the Lord. This was well before she gave birth to Jesus.

So the question to ask is....How can Mary be rejoicing in God her Savior, when the Savior was not yet even born, let alone completed His redemptive work on the cross. UNLESS, she was saved from her sin prior to this time. The angel called her "one having been already fully graced.

An interesting point.

As an Orthodox Christian I disagree with Mary's inmaculate conception idea yet the point you make is very interesting indeed...

My point is the reformist try to reduce Mary to a sinful woman that God had to clean before the incarnation of Jesus... however though Mary was subject to death and truely died, she commited no specific act of sin that can be used by the reformist to reduce her pure and holy status before God.... She gave her life to God from the beginning and kept herself pure only for God until the end....

If one can give me an example of one sin Mary committed I will believe the reformist that insist Mary was not "sinless"....

kyril

 

[orthodoxy]

I think you missed the point.
The Bible does NOT say Mary was sinless.

It says "There is no one that does good, not even one" (Romans 3:12). "All have sinned and fall short" (Romans 3:23). Now, unless you can provide solid biblical statement for Mary being excluded from that (like Hebrews 4:15 with Jesus), then we're left with Mary being part of that "all."



Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah



.

Again show me a verse that shows Mary committing an act of "falling short of the glory of God"

Also are you now telling me God used an unclean vessel to carry the fire of God?

Jesus then is also part of the "all" because He died....

You did not answer any of my questions....

Are you of the opinion that you must sin?

Are you of the opinion that Adam's sin you own?

Did we inherit Adam's specific sin or just the result in which the wages are death?

kyril

 

[Zeena]

There is no verse of Scripture (CANON) that backs up the assertation that Mary had no sin in her body..

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I think you missed the point.
The Bible does NOT say Mary was sinless.

It says "There is no one that does good, not even one" (Romans 3:12). "All have sinned and fall short" (Romans 3:23). Now, unless you can provide solid biblical statement for Mary being excluded from that (like Hebrews 4:15 with Jesus), then we're left with Mary being part of that "all."



Thank you!


Pax!

Again show me a verse that shows Mary committing an act of "falling short of the glory of God"

So, is your position that "all" really means "no one?"
That everyone is sinless unless the Bible specificly states that they sinned?
By your rubric, can I state that I'm sinless?

Jesus then is also part of the "all"

As I pointed out, see Hebrews 4:15.
Where is such a verse for Mary?



Thank you for the discussion.


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[Trento]

I think you missed the point.
The Bible does NOT say Mary was sinless.

It says "There is no one that does good, not even one" (Romans 3:12). "All have sinned and fall short" (Romans 3:23). Now, unless you can provide solid biblical statement for Mary being excluded from that (like Hebrews 4:15 with Jesus), then we're left with Mary being part of that "all."



Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah



.

The Bible also states 1 Corinthians 15:22: "As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive" {NIV}. As far as physical death is concerned (the context of 1 Cor 15), not "all" people have died (e.g., Enoch: Gen 5:24; cf. Heb 11:5, Elijah: 2 Kings 2:11). Likewise, "all" will not be made spiritually alive by Christ, as some will choose to suffer eternal spiritual death in hell.

 

[Zeena]

Jesus was and is and ever will be the ONLY Begotten Son of the Father! =P