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Biblical examples of gradual salvation vs

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by mreeed, Nov 23, 2020.

  1. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    It is interesting: “and FEW find it”, yet according to your theology everyone God elects finds it and all God does not elect do not find it, so is God’s arbitrary choice, the deciding factor?

    You contradict yourself by saying: My ideas are the, “BROAD WAY that leads MANY "Christians" to destruction”, but how can I do anything like that, since God alone is the deciding factor. And how could I lead “Christians” away to destruction, if it totally depends on them being or not being part of the elect?

    God initiates the path to eternal life by providing all mature adults with a natural faith, which can be directed by the individual toward a benevolent Creator.

    The banquet is a huge draw for all people but like in Jesus’ parables some individuals refuse the invitation, but all those at the banquet were invited to the banquet.

    The Bible does not teach: “some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved. They were NEVER MEANT

    to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted" or have their "sins forgiven". That is your misunderstanding.
     
  2. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Do you REALLY pretend that the Words of Christ are MINE?



    What did JESUS teach?


    Joh 6:44
    NO MAN can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Joh 6:37
    ALL [MEN] that the Father giveth me SHALL COME to me;
    and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.



    Of course you would NOT be asking that question if you
    knew the SCRIPTURES in which JESUS PROMISED that the
    "church" would consist of (few) saved "wheat", sown by God
    and (many) unsaved "tares" sown by Satan. [Mat 13]


    The MANY "Christians" that follow the BROAD WAY into eternal
    destruction (like their father, Satan) are the unsaved "tares" in
    the church. Why in the world is this "news" to you? This is the
    most BASIC and ESSENTIAL understanding of WHO are in the
    church. If you do not (or can not) understand this Biblical Truth
    then you can never hope to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


    Do you REALLY think that everyone calling themselves "Christian"
    are saved "wheat"? If so, read Matthew 7:21-23 to see what
    happens to those calling Jesus their "Lord" who are unsaved.


    Then read Luke 13:23-30 where Jesus is responding to the
    question (you raise) of whether there are FEW saved... then read
    Matthew 25:10-13 which gives a different perspective of the same Biblical reality, as it relates to the LAST "Christians", named as the
    "wise virgins" (the saved) and the "foolish virgins" (unsaved).
    Why is this "news" to you?



    Please tell me WHAT is a "natural faith"?
    Since the BIBLE never mentions such a thing.


    Secondly, please tell me WHY Jesus contradicts your theory
    when He reveals [Mark 4:11-12] that some men are GIVEN
    an understanding of the "Kingdom of God" and other men are
    NEVER MEANT to be saved (where is their "natural faith"???)


    They are NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" or
    "be converted" or have "their sins forgiven". Obviously, if they
    were NEVER MEANT to have "their sins forgiven" then they were
    NEVER MEANT to be included in the Atonement and NEVER MEANT
    to be saved from eternal torment.


    Moreover, the Bible PROMISES that God CREATES some men
    to be "vessels of mercy" and God CREATES other men to be
    "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction". Please show me in
    Scripture where this "natural faith" you claim exists in the people
    God CREATED to be "vessels of wrath" (or unsaved "tares").


    You see... if you want to PRETEND to understand Biblical Truth
    then you will need to harmonize ALL RELATED Scriptures into
    your theories and (as we have just seen) it only takes two
    minutes to show several examples of HOW your "theories"
    contradict the Bible and the Words of Christ.



    You silly man. Both the OT and the NT PROMISE that (wait for it....)
    NO MAN will ever "seek God" (no, not even one) unless they are
    FIRST regenerated or "drawn" by God (see John 6 above... unless
    you think Jesus was LYING in John 6).


    When you want to find Biblical Truth you CANNOT just select a few
    verses you LIKE and intentionally IGNORE all the Scriptures that
    contradict your "theories". The ONLY measure of Biblical Truth
    is harmony of ALL RELATED verses... why do you not know this?
    Or... do you know this and intentionally ignore this reality in order
    to protect your preferred (heretical) "gospel"?



    Is that right?
    Let's look at the Scriptures:


    Mar 4:11 And he said unto them [representing all the "wheat"],
    Unto you IT IS GIVEN TO KNOW THE MYSTERY of the
    Kingdom of God: BUT TO THEM THAT ARE WITHOUT,
    [those outside the Kingdom] all these things are done in parables:

    Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive;
    and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
    LEST AT ANY TIME they should be converted,
    and their sins should be forgiven them.


    You see... you can PRETEND the Bible does not teach that
    some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved... but JESUS SAID
    that some were NEVER MEANT to have "their sins forgiven".


    You do not have to LIKE the Words of Christ and you do not
    have to ACCEPT the Words of Christ... by your PRETENDING
    they do not exist - does not change what the Scripture says.



    Look, I understand.
    The fact the BIBLE teaches that some men were NEVER MEANT
    to have "their sins forgiven" immediately destroys your false gospel.
    And the fact the BIBLE teaches that God CREATES some men to be
    "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" immediately destroys
    your false gospel.


    But that is just the way it has ALWAYS been.
    Jesus tells us [Mat 13] the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
    consists of relatively FEW saved "wheat" (sown by God) and
    MANY unsaved "tares" (sown by Satan). Those people in the
    church - who are sown by Satan DO NOT preach the True Gospel.


    Basically there are TWO (2) "gospels" taught in the churches.
    (1) the false gospel of synergism (which you preach) and
    (2) the True Gospel of monergism (which the Bible teaches)


    One is the BROAD WAY that leads MANY (false) "Christians"
    into eternal destruction (prepared for their father Satan) and
    the other is the narrow way that leads the saved "wheat" into
    eternal life... and FEW find this way.


    Of course, MOST of the churches teach the BROAD WAY.
    Relatively FEW churches teach the narrow way.
    Exactly as foretold... Imagine that.


    Jim
     
  3. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You were the one describing them as “Christians” which is a descriptive term and not some title give church goers.

    Christ is referring to people and what is to happen in the Kingdom which includes the church.

    Christian make up the church and the church is not all attendees at some gathering.

    You are the one using some unbiblical definition of Christians and church, so do you not need to know this?

    Why would it matter what I say or teach, since it all depends on if God made me part of the elect or I am not part of the elect and the same would go for those who are listening to me, it is not my fault if the agree with me or not disagree with me, according to your theology?




    This brings up lots of topics, but help me with this:


    If I am not part of the elect I could not say anything righteous, so how does it matter what I am saying and if I am part of the elect what does it matter what I say to others who are elect or not elect?
     
  4. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    But you could not be more wrong.
    You are correct, in the Bible, the term "church" often represents
    ONLY the saved "wheat" in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".
    However, the Bible also uses the term "church" to represent
    BOTH the "wheat and tares" in the Christian "Kingdom".


    You cannot expect to understand the MEANING of passages
    talking about the "church" or "Christians" unless you first are
    able to discern the CONTEXT... does the passage focus on the
    "wheat and tares" in the TEMPORAL "church" or does it focus
    on ONLY the saved "wheat"... which is the ETERNAL "church"


    (1) Jesus (not me) explained in Matthew 13:24-30 and v36-43
    that the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" consists of BOTH saved
    "wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal life... and unsaved
    "tares" sown by Satan and destined to the same fire prepared
    for Satan and his demons [Mat 25:41]


    Jesus (not me) explained these "wheat and tares" LOOK alike,
    and they will would grow together until the end of the age when
    the final harvest (of the saved "wheat") occurs and the damnation
    of the unsaved "tares" occurs. The fact that they LOOK alike and
    they GROW TOGETHER until the final harvest demonstrates Jesus
    was not talking about "Christian" and non-Christians (like Jews,
    Moslems, Buddhist, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, Pagans,
    Satanists, etc... because they do not LOOK like the saved "wheat"
    at all. In fact they REJECT both Jesus and His Gospel)... whereas
    the unsaved "tares" call Jesus their "Lord" (they LOOK like saints)


    (2) The Bible has DOZENS of passages showing people who
    follow Christ and call Him their "Lord" and preach the Christian
    Gospel... who are unsaved "tares", NEVER MEANT to be saved.
    In fact, Jesus tells them "I never knew you". You can read about
    these unsaved "Christians" in Mat 7:21-23 and Luke 13:23-30
    and Mat 25:1-13. Which, of course are the Words of Christ
    (not my words) so rejecting or ignoring those Scriptures
    is just the "fruit" of those who are NOT saved "wheat".


    (3) Part of the Christian Gospel is that unsaved "tares" would
    infiltrate the "churches" (remember, the "churches" originally
    were small - often home based - gatherings of those following
    the teachings of Jesus... some were saved, others were not)
    and the "leaven" of the false doctrines of these false christians
    would corrupt the "church"... which is WHY we currently have
    churches teaching a false synergistic "gospel" (BROAD WAY)
    and the Truth Biblical Gospel of Sovereign Grace (monergism)
    which is the narrow way. This was all foretold and has now
    been fulfilled in history (reality).


    (4) Every time JESUS or the APOSTLES taught about there
    being "false prophets" or "ministers of Satan" in the church,
    they were talking about the unsaved "tares". The Bible says that
    some fall away (demonstrating they were never of "us" saints)
    but some remain. In fact the Bible teaches the elders within the
    "church" are to (a) identify these false christians by their "fruit"
    of bad behavior or false doctrines and (b) rebuke them, as they
    may just be "babes in Christ", needing much correction and then
    (c) to expel them from the (wait for it....) "church" if they refuse
    to repent of their bad behavior or heresies.


    (5) In fact, the Bible foretells that, at the end-of-the-age,
    those in the "church" (being mostly unsaved "tares" at that time)
    would reject the Gospel Truth and seek teachers of false doctrines.
    There MUST be a great "falling away" in the "church" before the
    "Man of Sin" is revealed (and destroyed) and Lord Jesus can Return.
    This is a very basic and essential element of the Gospel of the Bible.
    To reject it or intentionally ignore it is just the "fruit" of the "tares".


    So you can pretend to yourself that the Bible does not teach
    the temporal visible "church" consists of both "wheat and tares",
    but you are only pretending to yourself - in contradiction of Scripture.
    It is GOD (not you) who gets to DEFINE the term "church" and
    you embarrass yourself when you pretend otherwise after
    having been shown the Biblical Truth of #1-5 above...
    which you don't even try to refute from Scripture.



    But it is not "according to MY theology" as you pretend.
    It is according to the Gospel of the Bible. That is a big difference
    that you need to understand... if you have "ears to hear". Again,
    some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" or
    "be converted" or have "their sins forgiven". Obviously they were
    NEVER MEANT to be saved if these people were not meant to
    "be converted" or have "their sins forgiven". [Mark 4:11-12]


    To answer your question more directly... it does not matter
    what you say or teach because God will save all of "His sheep"
    and ONLY "His sheep". That is for certain. So, just as the Gospel
    PROMISES unsaved "tares" would infiltrate the churches and the
    "leaven" of the heretical doctrines of these "false prophets"
    would lead many ("tares") into destruction... the Gospel
    also PROMISES none of "His Sheep" will ever be lost.


    However, the (real) Saints are COMMANDED to (a) identify those
    teaching false doctrines and (b) to refute those false doctrines
    from Scripture... that is all I have done. I do not expect you to
    repent of your false doctrines because your "fruit" shows who
    you really are. But (real) Saints will submit to the COMMAND
    to rebuke false doctrines and demonstrate (with Scripture) why
    those doctrines are heresy... that is all I have done above and
    in the previous post.


    The Bible PROMISES that the unsaved "tares" in the churches
    will NOT follow Biblical Truth... even after having their heresy
    refuted with Scripture. So I would be foolish or very naive
    if I EXPECTED people to repent of teaching heresy just because
    I have shown SCRIPTURE which contradicts their false doctrines.
    The Bible is very clear, the "wheat and tares" grow together
    until the final harvest... nothing I (or any other saint) says or
    does will ever change that Biblical reality. However we (saints)
    are still commanded to refute false doctrines. And that is what
    we do.


    Jim
     
  5. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Matt. 13: 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

    Using the parable, you like, we see only the good seed are people in the kingdom (Church) and the field in which the seed is sown is not the church, but the whole world.

    The world (fleshly desires) are what chokes the good seed Matt. 13: 12 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. These are good seed “Christians” choked out.

    So again, where do you find this in scripture: “, the Bible also uses the term "church" to represent

    BOTH the "wheat and tares" in the Christian "Kingdom".”

    I do believe “true Christians” can after becoming Christians reject Christ and give up their salvation of their own free will. Thus there can be a “falling away” inside the “church”.
     
  6. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Yes, the "field" is the world... as the Gospel goes into the world.
    But the "FRUIT" are the "wheat and tares" (IN THE KINGDOM)
    You are conflating the "field" with the "fruit" wthin the "field"...
    demonstrating you do not understand these Scriptures.


    As I said before... I do not expect you to understand or accept
    Biblical Truth. As you demonstrate (above) you are not even
    able to discern (or accept) the DIFFERENCE between the "field"
    and the "fruit" of the seeds (sown either by God OR by Satan).


    I am not here to convince you of anything.
    If the Scripture does not convince you - then that is that.


    BTW... I gave you five (5) Biblical reasons to address and
    you respond by addressing ONE (1)... in which you CONFLATE
    the "field" with the "fruit" of the field and you IGNORE that some
    seeds are planted by God - and others sown by Satan...
    and both GROW TOGETHER because they LOOK ALIKE.


    Now....Do you REALLY pretend that non-Christians LOOK LIKE
    Christians? Do you REALLY pretend those rejecting Jesus Christ
    actually LOOK LIKE those calling Jesus their "Lord"? Do you
    REALLY pretend those rejecting the Bible LOOK LIKE those
    who treasure the Bible and LIVE by the Words of the Bible?
    You embarrass yourself if this is your argument.


    While I do not EXPECT you to have an honest answer...
    the Truth will be obvious to those with "ears to hear".


    So then... you can believe whatever you want and you can
    ignore as much of Scripture as you want. I (sincerely) hope
    that you find some comfort now. Because your "fruit" shows
    your "gospel" will not provide comfort when the "wheat and
    tares
    " in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13:24]
    are separated at the "end of the age".



    You have CONFLATED two separate and distinct parables.
    I assume you already know that. Your argument (above)
    can only be true if SCRIPTURE is LYING about Jesus saving
    "His people" from their sins and JESUS was LYING about
    losing NONE of "His Sheep".


    You have no SCRIPTURE to support your "feelings" that
    the "seed" (sown by either God or Satan) that is chocked
    represents the "good seed" (sown by God) or "His sheep"
    who are the saved "wheat". If we accept the Bible contains
    no contradictions - then we accept the "seed" that is choked
    are those sown by Satan and not the seed sown by God...
    who Jesus PROMISES He will lose NONE.


    I hope this fact helps you understand WHY you cannot even
    PRETEND to have found Biblical Truth until you have found
    harmony among ALL RELATED Scriptures.


    What I find interesting is that these OBVIOUS discrepancies
    with your "interpretation" with SCRIPTURE are not obvious
    TO YOU. That you use your "feelings" as your authority
    instead of harmony of ALL RELATED Scripture.


    But, again, those with "ears to hear" are DIFFERENT from
    those who were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand"....
    even though they (these "wheat and tares") may actually
    LOOK LIKE they are both (real, or saved) "Christians"



    But it really DOES NOT MATTER what you believe.
    Read 2 Thess 2:1-9 where the Scripture PROMISES
    there must be a great "falling away" (and the revealing
    of the "Man of Sin"... do you even know WHO that represents?)
    BEFORE the Return of Christ.


    You see... you should NEVER make the mistake of thinking
    that Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what YOU understand (or accept).
    That is a huge mistake... as we have seen in these last posts.


    Jim
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  7. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You say: However, the Bible also uses the term "church" to represent

    BOTH the "wheat and tares" in the Christian "Kingdom".

    Mat. 13: 38…the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom, The weeds are the sons of the evil one,

    The sons of the evil one are not “in” the kingdom, but contrast with sons of the Kingdom.

    The separation will be between sons in the Kingdom and those sons of the evil one. God is not dividing up His Kingdom, but separating out His kingdom.

    Matt. 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matt. 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    You might want to say this means heaven only, but Kingdom, Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven all stand for the same Kingdom. We today are in the Kingdom of Heaven since it extends to the individual Christian and goes to the Spiritual realm and throne of God.

    Matt. 18:3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matt. 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

    Luke 17:20… Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

    John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

    Revelation 1:6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

    Only, Christians are in the church and the Kingdom. The parable is teaching the separation of the Christians (kingdom dwellers) in the world being separated from tares not in the kingdom, but in the world.

    The tares are in and around the kingdom but are not part of the Kingdom. Christians are in the world but not part of the world. Christians are the church (the kingdom), so they are in the world, but the world is not in the church. The world might be hard to separate from the Christian/Church/Kingdom, but the world is not part of the Kingdom.

    The Greek word ἐκ (ek) translate “out of” is a simple preposition which has many meanings and be translated “from” without meaning “in” the Kingdom itself.

    Explain to me how children of satan can get into the Kingdom without first changing and becoming like children?
     
  8. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    That is what JESUS taught. The (Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven"
    consists of those sown by "a man" and his "enemy" [Mat 13:24-25]
    Let me say that again... as you do not seem to have "ears to hear",
    the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" (the church) contains BOTH the
    "wheat" sown by a man (Jesus) and the "tares" sown by the enemy
    (Satan). This is not difficult. Why can you not understand?


    Mat 13:24-25
    Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
    The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven [represented by the church]
    is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while
    men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,
    and went his way.


    When we read more details we find the "man" represents Jesus
    sowing "good seed" (the saved "wheat") and the "enemy" represents Satan, sowing the unsaved "tares" (false Christians).


    Mat 13:37-39
    He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed
    is the Son of man; [Jesus] The field is the world; [Mat 28:18-20]
    the good seed are the children of the Kingdom; [saved "wheat"]
    but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy
    that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.



    Apparently you need to READ the Scriptures again...
    you do not seem to want to SUBMIT to what they say,
    you want them to say what YOU WANT instead. The Bible
    is very clear the (Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven" contains both
    the saved "wheat" (sown by Jesus) and the unsaved "tares" sown
    by the enemy Satan. You do not have to LIKE this Biblical reality
    and you do not have to ACCEPT this Truth... but you cannot
    change the Scripture by rejecting what it says.


    Mat 13:24-25
    Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
    The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven [represented by the church]
    is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while
    men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,
    and went his way.



    NEWS FLASH:
    The "Final Harvest" is the separation of the "wheat and tares"
    in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" (the church). Again, you
    do not have to LIKE this Biblical reality and you do not even have
    to ACCEPT this Truth... but your rejection of Scripture does not
    negate anything. You need to read the Scripture AGAIN.


    Mat 13:24-25
    Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
    The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven [represented by the church]
    is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while
    men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,
    and went his way.


    Mat 13:28-30
    He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said
    unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he
    said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the
    wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest:
    and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye
    together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them:
    but gather the wheat into my barn.


    Mat 13:41-43
    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather
    OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be
    wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth
    as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear,
    let him hear.


    So... before I move on... did you happen to NOTICE that the
    command is to gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that
    offend (unsaved "tares") and burn them. So you can PRETEND
    that the "tares" are a not OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all you want,
    but you are only pretending to yourself, and embarrassing
    yourself as you contradict the clear Words of Christ.



    So you think Jesus was LYING in Matthew 13:41-43 when
    he says to gather the "tares" OUT OF HIS KINGDOM... which
    is the (Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven" from Matthew 13:24-25.
    I tell you again, you only embarrass yourself when you PRETEND
    that Jesus was wrong and you know better.



    Not THAT is hilarious.
    You actually pretend those calling Jesus their "Lord" and "Savior"
    LOOK LIKE those who reject Jesus and the Bible?


    And you actually PRETEND those who are Jews and Moslems and
    Buddhists and Hindus and Atheists and Agnostics and Humanists
    and Pagans and Satanists... actually LOOK LIKE those who are Christians. That is just hilarious.


    Listen, you go ahead and believe whatever you want.
    But when you PRETEND the unsaved "tares" are not gathered
    OUT OF HIS KINGDOM you are only pretending to yourself and
    embarrassing yourself by contradicting clear Scripture.


    And when you PRETEND those OUTSIDE of the church (who reject
    Jesus and the Bible) actually LOOK LIKE those inside the church
    (both the "wheat and tares"), then you are only pretending and
    embarrassing yourself by speaking such obvious nonsense.


    Jim


    BTW... as I already said, I DO NOT EXPECT you to understand.
    So there is no reason to continue this "discussion". You can
    respond if that will make you "feel" better. But, unless you
    show something NEW (in Scripture, not your "interpretation")
    then it's just a waste of my time to respond to you again.

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  9. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Mat 13:24-25
    Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
    The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven [represented by the church]
    is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while
    men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat,
    and went his way.


    Mat 13:28-30
    He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said
    unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he
    said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the
    wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest:
    and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye
    together first
    the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them:
    but gather the wheat into my barn.


    Mat 13:41-43
    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather
    OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be
    wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth
    as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear,
    let him hear.



    Jim
     
  10. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +1,205
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You are using just one possible English interpretation of “ἐκ” from one verse to say: “children of satan/ non-Christians are in the Kingdom/Church, when all other descriptions of the Kingdom and the church include only the elect/saved. “ἐκ” could mean the unbelievers are intertwined with the believers, but not in the Church itself and it is very hard to separate the Christians in the church from the children of satan, but that does not meaning the children of satan are actually in the church whom Christ died for.

    Do you really believe the church Christ died for includes children of satan?

    The reason the unsaved children of satan can be separated from the church/kingdom is because they are not in the Kingdom, but are in the same field with the kingdom and the whole field is the world and not just the Kingdom.

    Can you find me other scripture which shows children of satan in the Kingdom/Church, because I find lots of scripture defining the Kingdom as being made up of the elect?
     
  11. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

    +171
    Christian
    Private

    I could not have been more clear.
    The Bible defines TWO (2) different "churches".
    (1) the temporal church of both "wheat and tares"
    (2) the eternal church of only saved people from EACH Kingdom...
    the saints from the Pre-Flood Kingdom, the saints from the
    Jewish "Kingdom" [Mat 22:2 and 21:43] the saints from the
    Christian "Kingdom" [Mat 13] and the saints from the
    Great Tribulation "Kingdom" [Mat 25:1]


    Obviously Jesus PAID for the elect/saints (in each Kingdom)
    but not for the "children of Satan" in any Kingdom.


    When you pretend the term "church" identifies ONLY the
    saved "wheat" you are contradicting what JESUS TAUGHT
    in Matthew 13... that the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
    consists of BOTH "wheat and tares"... or "good fish" and
    "bad fish"... and you contradict all the (many) passages that
    show some calling Jesus their "Lord" are actually unsaved
    "tares" (children of Satan) who suffer the same fate as
    their father [Mat 25:41]


    I am getting tired of repeating these passages to you
    when you do not even TRY to address them but deflect
    onto different verses - and insert your "interpretations".



    OK... you can believe whatever you want. You can pretend
    Jesus was LYING when he explained the "Kingdom of Heaven"
    [Mat 13, in 8 different verses] consists of "wheat and tares"
    or "good fish and bad fish".



    Seriously?

    In addition to all the unsaved "tares" and "bad fish"
    sown by Satan (in the churches), have you never read about:

    (1) the "false prophets" in the churches [Mat 7:15] and
    (2) the "sheep in wolves clothing" in the church [Mat 7:15] and
    (3) the "false Christs" trying to deceive the elect [Mat 24:24] and
    (4) the "false teachers" bringing "damnable heresies" [2Pet 2:1-3]
    (5) the "false apostles" in the church [2 Co 11:13-15] and
    (6) the "false teachers" in the church [2Tim 4:1-4] and
    (7) the "ungodly men" in the church [Jude 1:3-4] and
    (8) the "ungodly men" in the church [2Tim 3:1-7] and
    (9) the "false teachers" in the church [2Tim 4:1-4] and
    (10) the "grievious wolves" in the church [Acts 20:28-31]

    How about those who "went out from us" [1Jn 2:19. Acts 15:24]
    showing they were NEVER part of the saints in the churches.

    How about the great "falling away" in the churches before
    Christ Returns? Do you actually PRETEND this "falling away"
    is about Jews and Moslems and Buddhists and Hindus and
    Atheists and Agnostics and Humanists and Pagans etc?
    Please get serious. [2 Thess 2:1-9]

    This REALLY has to be the last time I go through this with you
    because anybody who considers themselves to be a Bible student
    could not have possibly READ the Bible and not understood the
    church consists of saved "wheat" (children of God) and the
    unsaved "tares" (children of Satan), which are also shown
    as "good fish" and "bad fish" in the "Kingdom of Heaven"
    [Mat 13:24-30 and13:47-50]


    Either you are not a Bible student (although I am sure that
    you consider yourself to be one) or you were NEVER MEANT
    to understand this very simple, basic and essential, Biblical fact.
    You were simply never given "ears to hear".


    The Bible is very clear [Mark 4:11-12] that some men are GIVEN
    understanding of the mysteries of the "Kingdom of God" and others
    were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted"
    or "have their sins forgiven"... but, of course, this Biblical reality
    immediately destroys your "gospel" of synergism.


    Since Jesus PROMISED we can tell the "wheat" from the "tares"
    by their "fruit"... those who cannot understand the most basic
    and essential elements of the Gospel (the "wheat and tares")
    are showing the "fruit" of not having "ears to hear".


    Jim
     
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