Biblical examples of gradual salvation vs

mreeed

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(Sorry, this thread posted prematurely)
Biblical examples of gradual salvation vs a more specific/definitive salvation experience?

Do they exist? Should we expect to see them? OT vs NT?

I like what Hammster said on another thread some years ago, something like "Just for perspective, do you remember when you met your parents?"

I think in the NT, we of course have a lot of experiences recorded because this Christianity was such a brand new thing, an astounding thing, in many cases a divisive, controversial thing. The apostles were on the front lines, ministering to and persuading the people. But we do see in II Timothy, that Paul acknowledges Timothy's heritage of faith, and that he is convinced Timothy is continuing in that faith.

Is there a reason to think that physically there is ALWAYS a particular moment in time when this happens, even if we can't pinpoint exactly when it is? (Acknowledging that God knows or predestines who are His outside of time, but preferring not to get into Calvinism or OSAS here)
 
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Aaron_Bethlhm

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Maybe not always.
Corrie ten Boom knew specifically when she was five years old when the change in her life came - the change from "of the flesh, fleshly" to "by the Will of the Father in heaven, 'born again'" - and the change was from the inside out, evident all the rest of her life.

On the other hand, some believers are surprised, when Jesus tells them they did feed Him and clothe Him and visit Him in jail ..... there were not selfishly doing those things as if to try to gain God's favor at all, so much so that they did not even think they had done anything more than a good servant simply should be doing all the time.
 
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Aaron_Bethlhm

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That's an interesting way to look at this verse Aaron, I like it. Can you define what you mean by believers in this instance? What do you think they were or might have been believing about Jesus?
Honestly, I'm not sure in the Bible that it is written that they even knew about Jesus.
I don't remember the context fully in that regard - only that Jesus says He will welcome them into His Kingdom, when He rejects a multitude of others whether they believed in Jesus or did not believe I don't know.
 
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5thKingdom

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Is there a reason to think that physically there is ALWAYS a particular moment in time when this happens, even if we can't pinpoint exactly when it is?

Do you mean like when we are "born again" or regenerated
by His "indwelling" Spirit? Clearly that is a "moment in time".
While it is true God "draws" them He will save, we are not
actually saved until we are translated from Death into Life
during the (first resurrection) of being "born again".

The first resurrection gives life to our dead souls.
The second resurrection gives life to our dead bodies.

For corruption cannot enter into the "Kingdom of God"
which is why ONLY our soul (and not our body) is "born again"
when we are regenerated. The completion of our salvation
occurs at the resurrection - or, for the Last Saints, when
we are "changed" in the "twinkling of an eye" into our
incorruptible spiritual bodies.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Since God is outside of time all human events happen at the same time from His perspective.


LOL... you think you can explain the "perspective" of God.
That is hilarious.... pretending that all human events happen
"at the same time"... the Cross was the SAME TIME as the
Great Tribulation and destruction of the Revelation Beast.

And Rev 19:20 was the SAME TIME as Rev 20:10...
even though Rev 11:14 tells us that (from God's perspective)
there is a separation of time between these two EVENTS.

You are best off not trying to explain God's perspective since
you (nor any man) has the ability to understand the Mind of God.
And, as shown above, any attempt to TRY to do so is contradicted
in Scripture.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Maybe not always.
Corrie ten Boom knew specifically when she was five years old when the change in her life came - the change from "of the flesh, fleshly" to "by the Will of the Father in heaven, 'born again'" - and the change was from the inside out, evident all the rest of her life.

On the other hand, some believers are surprised, when Jesus tells them they did feed Him and clothe Him and visit Him in jail ..... there were not selfishly doing those things as if to try to gain God's favor at all, so much so that they did not even think they had done anything more than a good servant simply should be doing all the time.


Who is Corrie ten Boom?
 
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Aaron_Bethlhm

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Who is Corrie ten Boom?
One of the best testimonies of a full life in Jesus from youth through old age - a survivor also of the holocaust where she learned partly from her sister how to love the guards who tortured and executed her fellow countrymen, both Jews and gentiles including Christians who tried to protect the Jews, and how to forgive them as an obedient child of God (not religiously or by rote or for show) ...

Her testimonies on youtube (if still available) are likely the best you could find ...

and her letter concerning some religious topics shows experiential life with Jesus and revelation in line with all Scripture concerning some things too often denied.
 
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bling

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LOL... you think you can explain the "perspective" of God.
That is hilarious.... pretending that all human events happen
"at the same time"... the Cross was the SAME TIME as the
Great Tribulation and destruction of the Revelation Beast.

And Rev 19:20 was the SAME TIME as Rev 20:10...
even though Rev 11:14 tells us that (from God's perspective)
there is a separation of time between these two EVENTS.

You are best off not trying to explain God's perspective since
you (nor any man) has the ability to understand the Mind of God.
And, as shown above, any attempt to TRY to do so is contradicted
in Scripture.

Jim
Do you believe God exists outside of human time?
Do you agree with science that over the last 100 years it has only been shown that time is relative and no experiment shows otherwise?
Do you believe God existing at the end of human time, historically knows all that has happen throughout time?
Do you believe history cannot be changed even if God is the only to know, the history that happened and thus cannot cease to have happened?
If God is outside of time omnipresent throughout time, then God at the end of time could send back to Himself at the beginning of time everything that happened and all unchangeable historical choices that were made and there are no other choices man can make?
 
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5thKingdom

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and her letter concerning some religious topics shows experiential life with Jesus and revelation in line with all Scripture concerning some things too often denied.


So then she denied the heresy of a synergistic "gospel"
and preached the True Gospel of monergism?

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Do you believe God exists outside of human time?
Do you agree with science that over the last 100 years it has only been shown that time is relative and no experiment shows otherwise?
Do you believe God existing at the end of human time, historically knows all that has happen throughout time?
Do you believe history cannot be changed even if God is the only to know, the history that happened and thus cannot cease to have happened?
If God is outside of time omnipresent throughout time, then God at the end of time could send back to Himself at the beginning of time everything that happened and all unchangeable historical choices that were made and there are no other choices man can make?


Seems you are getting way out in left field here buddy.
As I indicated before, the BIBLE (the word of God) designates
different time periods. So, contrary to your theory, the "perspective"
of time (for God) would not be (as you suggest) everything
happening at the SAME TIME.


In fact, from the perspective of God, the history of mankind
is a REFLECTION of His salvation Plan and is divided into four
temporal "Kingdoms of Heaven" (with each including saved
and unsaved people) before the establishment of His
(5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" (of only the saved).


You have gotten into pseudo-philosophy here instead of staying
with the Word of God, which reveals:


(1) a time of the Pre-Flood Kingdom then (2) a time of the Jewish
"Kingdom" [Mat 22:2], then (3) a time of the Christian "Kingdom"
[Mat 13], then a time of the Great Tribulation "Kingdom" [Mat 25:1]
which is also shown as the Revelation Beast AFTER the end of the Christian "Kingdom"... and, finally, a period on earth named the
"time-of-the-end" [Dan 12:8-10] and/or the "Season and Time"
[Dan 7:11-12] which is the period BETWEEN Rev 19:20, when the Revelation Beast is "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" and the time
of Rev 20:10 when all of Satan's physical/political "Kingdoms of Man" then JOIN THE BEAST in the Lake of Fire.... after the DELAY in time that's shown in Rev 11:14.


Note... we have not even discussed the "time" before the
foundation of the earth.


So, on one hand we have all these TIME PERIODS given by God
and on the other hand we have so pseudo-philosophy that you
(or some other man) has imagined as "God's perspective"...
with absolutely NO EVIDENCE whatsoever.


I cannot think of a better example of the delusions of man
contrasted with the Words of God.


Jim
 
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bling

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Seems you are getting way out in left field here buddy.
As I indicated before, the BIBLE (the word of God) designates
different time periods. So, contrary to your theory, the "perspective"
of time (for God) would not be (as you suggest) everything
happening at the SAME TIME.


In fact, from the perspective of God, the history of mankind
is a REFLECTION of His salvation Plan and is divided into four
temporal "Kingdoms of Heaven" (with each including saved
and unsaved people) before the establishment of His
(5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" (of only the saved).


You have gotten into pseudo-philosophy here instead of staying
with the Word of God, which reveals:


(1) a time of the Pre-Flood Kingdom then (2) a time of the Jewish
"Kingdom" [Mat 22:2], then (3) a time of the Christian "Kingdom"
[Mat 13], then a time of the Great Tribulation "Kingdom" [Mat 25:1]
which is also shown as the Revelation Beast AFTER the end of the Christian "Kingdom"... and, finally, a period on earth named the
"time-of-the-end" [Dan 12:8-10] and/or the "Season and Time"
[Dan 7:11-12] which is the period BETWEEN Rev 19:20, when the Revelation Beast is "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" and the time
of Rev 20:10 when all of Satan's physical/political "Kingdoms of Man" then JOIN THE BEAST in the Lake of Fire.... after the DELAY in time that's shown in Rev 11:14.


Note... we have not even discussed the "time" before the
foundation of the earth.


So, on one hand we have all these TIME PERIODS given by God
and on the other hand we have so pseudo-philosophy that you
(or some other man) has imagined as "God's perspective"...
with absolutely NO EVIDENCE whatsoever.


I cannot think of a better example of the delusions of man
contrasted with the Words of God.


Jim
These are all referring to man's time, but answer me this question:

Do you feel God is limited by human time?
 
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5thKingdom

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These are all referring to man's time, but answer me this question:


No... these are all referring to the TIME GOD ESTABLISHED.
Different time periods with different purposes established by God
to complete His salvation plan. MAN did not establish any of
these periods, few men even recognize them.


Do you feel God is limited by human time?


Now you CHANGE the subject.
God is not limited.

However, that does not support your original pseudo-philosophy
which you tried to pass off as Biblical teaching.


Jim
 
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mreeed

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Since God is outside of time all human events happen at the same time from His perspective.

Different time periods with different purposes established by God
to complete His salvation plan.

Since God has given us the concept of time to help us understand the world, is there necessarily a moment in time where salvation occurs, or does scripture allow for a gradual less distinguishable process? Christ was slain and thus His salvation plan was accomplished before the foundation of the world (and time), but in the OP I am referring to salvation of particular individuals as best we can determine it for human understanding.
 
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bling

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Since God has given us the concept of time to help us understand the world, is there necessarily a moment in time where salvation occurs, or does scripture allow for a gradual less distinguishable process? Christ was slain and thus His salvation plan was accomplished before the foundation of the world (and time), but in the OP I am referring to salvation of particular individuals as best we can determine it for human understanding.
God knows the moment when (in human time) the mature adult has truly humbly accepted His forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, but He also knows the time leading up to that decision.

To answer your post 16:
God has established an excellent way for humans to place an exact time to their salvation to help them:

Water baptism is not a “requirement” for salvation since God does the saving, but is something Christians get to do in order to help them and others.

I know that I needed everything God could provide to assure me of my conversion, both outwardly and mentally. God wants you to physically feel the experience of what is going on Spiritually.

You need to add to your conversion a definite time place and physical experience, which God has provided for you.

Adult believers water immersion is to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized. It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the old dead body), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person). The person is walking out into the hugs of his new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit and you are hurting yourself.
 
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5thKingdom

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God knows the moment when (in human time) the mature adult has truly humbly accepted His forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, but He also knows the time leading up to that decision.


And, of course, THERE is your problem.
You think that MAN initiates the salvation process.
That is the heresy of a synergistic "gospel" that is just
the BROAD WAY that leads MANY "Christians" to destruction.


The Biblical Truth is represented by the monergistic Gospel of the Bible
and the "moment" we are saved is the "moment" we are "indwelt"...
although I would argue that we are actually saved the "moment" that
God "chose" or "elected" us to salvation BECAUSE God cannot fail
to accomplish whatever He purposes... as Jesus said: NO MAN
can come to Him unless the Father "draws" them and ALL MEN
the Father draws "shall come" to Him and He will lose NONE.


This is the narrow way that leads Christians into eternal life...
and FEW find it.


But... if you care to respond, please tell me how your
synergistic heresy can explain the Biblical FACT that some
men were NEVER MEANT to be saved. They were NEVER MEANT
to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted" or have their
"sins forgiven".... if they were NEVER MEANT to have their
"sins forgiven" then (obviously) they were NEVER MEANT
to be saved.... how does that "fit" in you synergistic heresy?


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Another way to ask the question...if someone doesn't have a particular experience or time to point to when they understand they were saved, should they be concerned? Is our spiritual passage from death to life in time always clear on our side of the ledger?


Since the BIBLE promises the (real) saints are "indwelt"
with the Holy Spirit that "witnesses" with out spirit and
TEACHES us Biblical Truth from heresy... the answer to
your question is clearly YES... real saints KNOW.


1Jn 2:20
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things


Rom 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,
that we are the children of God:


Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the
Spirit of God dwell in you
. Now if any man have not the Spirit
of Christ, he is none of his.



Now, I am not saying we know the instant we are "indwelt"
but we know by the "fruit" of having the indwelling Spirit...
All (real) saints produce righteous "fruit" (not any heresies),
some thirty-fold, others sixty-fold and some one hundred-fold.


Jim
 
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Since God has given us the concept of time to help us understand the world, is there necessarily a moment in time where salvation occurs, or does scripture allow for a gradual less distinguishable process? Christ was slain and thus His salvation plan was accomplished before the foundation of the world (and time), but in the OP I am referring to salvation of particular individuals as best we can determine it for human understanding.


Does the Scripture EVER teach that being "born again" is a gradual
process? Does the Scripture EVER teach being "indwelt" with the
Holy Spirit is a gradual process.


Now, it is true that God "draws" those He intends to save
(although we normally do not recognize that action until AFTER
we have been "indwelt"). But your question is about the MOMENT
when we become "children of God"... and that is a MOMENT,
the moment we are "indwelt".


Rom 8:14-16
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:



Jim
 
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