BIBLICAL ELDERS

[Paidiske]

And just as an aside. neither in the New Testament or Old Testament is there any concept of the average wife going out to work and earning a salary working for the local Tel Aviv supermarket or the Jerusalem Camel Hire business.

The business of the wife was first and foremost always managing the household and looking after the needs of the husband and children. No one ever sent their children to the child care centre to be looked after so that the wife could go out and get a paid job.

But the men of that time didn't do that either. Working outside/away from the home - with the exception of military service - is something that really only happened with the industrial revolution. Before that, everyone lived where they worked, and the work of the household was done by everyone; men, women, and children old enough to have some skill. (So in Scripture we see women working to harvest crops, for example). Children were cared for communally by all the adults of the extended family, who lived together (ie. the childcare centre was on-site, and generally involved elders or those who had less strength for physical labour).

This division of life into separate "work" and "domestic" areas is artificial and very recent; and the creation of gendered roles around it is also artificial and very recent. It was unknown even 300 years or so ago. Managing the household, then, is more like overseeing how everyone's contributions fit together, and making sure that what is needed is done by each at the right time. It's not a matter of being relegated to the cooking and cleaning while someone else gets to exercise his intellectual and professional skills outside the home.

And, here's the thing. If something about the pattern of our working lives has changed, it's not that women are participating in it; it's that it has separated work and home life. So, if you want to criticise the corrosive effect of our society's work practices, and so on, I'm right there with you; but criticise unhealthy and exploitative employment practices which damage family life; not because women participate but because the way we structure work is incredibly difficult to combine with a healthy home life, no matter which parent you are!

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm not a big fan of the wheel, and I was thinking about reinventing it. How's this for a design?

Seriously though, it seems to me the best people to ask about this sort of thing might be the people who, you know, actually knew the apostles, like St. Ignatius of Antioch.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[com7fy8]

All of the verses have the same Greek word for Elders and that is presbuteros which means older or senior men. That fits in with the Jewish custom that a man could not be an Elder until he was 40 years old.

This is what I mean by a qualified pastor . . . one who is a senior who has matured so he with his wife can shepherd God's people (1 Timothy 3:1-10), meaning to take care of God's people > 1 Timothy 3:8, Hebrews 13:17. And Peter does say God wants the elders to shepherd His people (1 Peter 5:1-3). So, pastor is just a synonym for an elder as described by our Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

And there is hierarchy, if Paul gave directions to Timothy and then Timothy appointed men to be elders who pastored God's people.

So, you might be disagreeing with what I do not mean.

I think of how the LORD is our Shepherd and He makes us to lie down in green pastures. This is what a pastor does, by means of ministering how Jesus shepherds us.

So, what do you mean by a pastor? Isn't Jesus our Pastor, or you could say Shepherd? And Peter does say for elders to shepherd God's people > 1 Peter 5:1-3.

But it is wrong for one man to be a figurehead who controls people. This is an un-Biblical way to pastor.

 

[Episaw]

This is what I mean by a qualified pastor . . . one who is a senior who has matured so he with his wife can shepherd God's people (1 Timothy 3:1-10), meaning to take care of God's people > 1 Timothy 3:8, Hebrews 13:17. And Peter does say God wants the elders to shepherd His people (1 Peter 5:1-3). So, pastor is just a synonym for an elder as described by our Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

And there is hierarchy, if Paul gave directions to Timothy and then Timothy appointed men to be elders who pastored God's people.

So, you might be disagreeing with what I do not mean.

I think of how the LORD is our Shepherd and He makes us to lie down in green pastures. This is what a pastor does, by means of ministering how Jesus shepherds us.

So, what do you mean by a pastor? Isn't Jesus our Pastor, or you could say Shepherd? And Peter does say for elders to shepherd God's people > 1 Peter 5:1-3.

But it is wrong for one man to be a figurehead who controls people. This is an un-Biblical way to pastor.

The thread is Biblical Elders, so that is where all comment revolves around. In the passage in Timothy, the word pastor is not mentioned. Because of the connotation on pastor today it would be wrong to use it when exegeting this scripture.

As I have said here or elsewhere, an Elder can be a shepherd but a shepherd is not necessarily an Elder. I used my wife as an example who definitely was a shepherd to the women in the church but she was not an Elder.

And I don't see the need for a synonym when we have clear and unambiguous teaching about leadership in the church in Timothy.

People use the synonym because they are brainwashed into thinking that is the correct and only word to use. I have read and heard it said too that 1 Timothy is a passage about pastors when it is obviously not. And guess who make those statements....pastors.

And all the adverts for jobs in the church ask for a pastor, never an Elder or Bishop.

In my reading of scripture, Jesus is never referred to as our pastor. He is ALWAYS our shepherd so that is what we should stick with.

In one sense I believe that every member of the body of Christ is a shepherd as we are told to care for one another. The system falls apart when someone in need is referred to "a pastor." When that happens it is usually the case that "the pastor" does not want to share the glory with another or we expect him to do all the ministry because we pay him a salary.

 

[RDKirk]

As I have said here or elsewhere, an Elder can be a shepherd but a shepherd is not necessarily an Elder. I used my wife as an example who definitely was a shepherd to the women in the church but she was not an Elder.

The other word is "deacon." As I'm seeing it in scripture, "deacon" literally means "servant," but it seems in the congregational use to mean "designated servant." That is, in modern parlance, we all serve one another, but the deacons are the servants to the congregation whose names and telephone numbers are on the bulletin board. They have known and continuing service roles, as opposed to being ad hoc volunteers.

A deacon is always a servant, but in some roles may also be a pastor. The seven selected "table waiters" in the congregation of Jerusalem would have been servant-pastors. The role of steward would be a servant-pastor. But some deacon roles (again, designated servant) are purely service.

For instance, I serve in two roles in my congregation. I'm a boys student leader (servant pastor) and also one of the congregation photographers (servant). We have another man who is a boys student leader (servant pastor) and also does the A/V for the youth services (servant).

 

[Paidiske]

This partly depends on denominational usage too. In my denomination a deacon is an ordained person with particular scope envisaged for that role (as described in the exhortation in the ordination service).

 

[Episaw]

The other word is "deacon." As I'm seeing it in scripture, "deacon" literally means "servant," but it seems in the congregational use to mean "designated servant." That is, in modern parlance, we all serve one another, but the deacons are the servants to the congregation whose names and telephone numbers are on the bulletin board. They have known and continuing service roles, as opposed to being ad hoc volunteers.

A deacon is always a servant, but in some roles may also be a pastor. The seven selected "table waiters" in the congregation of Jerusalem would have been servant-pastors. The role of steward would be a servant-pastor. But some deacon roles (again, designated servant) are purely service.

For instance, I serve in two roles in my congregation. I'm a boys student leader (servant pastor) and also one of the congregation photographers (servant). We have another man who is a boys student leader (servant pastor) and also does the A/V for the youth services (servant).

Very perceptive. I had to laugh at one church I was in. We had about 7 pastors, all paid a salary. The senior pastor. The pastor for missions. The pastor for finance. The pastor for youth. The pastor for women. The pastor for church maintenance and so on.

I can just imagine the pastor for finance giving a message to all the dollars and cents in the offering and then laying hands on any sick dollars and cents or casting out demons from the counterfeit dollars.

In most churches, he is known as the treasurer.

 

[Episaw]

This partly depends on denominational usage too. In my denomination a deacon is an ordained person with particular scope envisaged for that role (as described in the exhortation in the ordination service).

But the question is, is the exhortation in scripture. If not why not and if not why use the exhortation contrary to his word.

 

[Paidiske]

I have to rush out the door now, but I'll post the exhortation to deacons later and you can see if you think it lines up with a Scriptural view.

 

[Episaw]

I'm not a big fan of the wheel, and I was thinking about reinventing it. How's this for a design?

Seriously though, it seems to me the best people to ask about this sort of thing might be the people who, you know, actually knew the apostles, like St. Ignatius of Antioch.

-CryptoLutheran

I like your wheel and as they say, where there is a wheel there is a way. One thing though. Driving a car with wheels like that may make you very tyred.

Or....you could do what I did and read over 60 books on the subject to get a very broad and unbiased view.

 

[Episaw]

In 1 Timothy 3:2 an Elder is expected to be sober and that does not mean not given to drink. It means sober in character, not out and loud. He needs to be orderly and decorous. Fond of guests and hospitable. He must be apt to teach and instructive. That does not mean preach sermons. It means that when he is being hospitable or fellowshipping, he must not be reticent to share with others the right way to live.

In verse 3 it says he is not to be given to wine. The picture there is not having a glass of wine beside him all the time so that he can sip it whilst he is working or talking.

It does not mean he cannot drink wine.

He is not to be a striker which means pugnacious or quarrelsome.

Greedy for filthy lucre means not be involved in sordid gain.

Patient means mild and gentle.

Peaceable means, not a brawler.

Not covetousness means wanting other people's money by way of sordid gain.

Verse four tells us how important family relationships are in terms of being in charge of the church. This is very important as I know of a pastor who had two sons that were both drug dealers.

My own son went off the rails for a period of time and I refused all leadership positions when that happened.

It talks about ruling his own house well. When it talks about ruling it means that he stands before his family as the head of it and has authority over it.

The word house can mean a building but in this context it means family. Don't forget that in Jewish Culture people were addressed as John ben Judah from the house of Joshua.

Subjection means subordination giving the idea that the children are subordinate to the Father and should respect his wishes.

Gravity means venerableness as in respect for the position the person holds. In today's climate, men are being pushed from pillar to post and made to feel they are inadequate or irrelevant.

In Jewish culture as well as Greek, being a father was a position of respect and authority.

 

[Paidiske]

So, here's the exhortation to deacons from the ordinal (in the rite of the Anglican Church of Australia):

"Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ lived and died as the servant of God.
All who follow him are called to serve God in the world,
setting forth Christ's kingdom through the power of the Spirit.

Christ has called you to the office of deacon.
You are to be an ambassador of Christ,
serving God as you serve others in Jesus' name.
Proclaim the good news of God's love,
so that many may be moved to faith and repentance,
and hearts be opened to do justice,
love mercy, and walk humbly in the presence of God.
Let the transforming love of Jesus be known to all
among whom you live and work.
Strengthen the faithful, teach the young,
search out the careless and indifferent.
Encourage the members of Christ's body by word and example,
ministering among the sick, the needy
and all who are oppressed or in trouble.

Together with your bishop, priest and people,
you are to take your place in public worship,
assist in the administration of the sacraments,
and play your part in the life and councils of the Church.
You are to preach the word of God in the place to which you are licensed,
and to pray and work for peace and justice in the world.

As a deacon, you are to model your life according to the word of God.
Study the Scriptures, reflecting with God's people upon their meaning,
that all may be equipped to live out God's truth in the world.
Put away all that does not make for holiness of life.
Be faithful in prayer, that you may have strength to run the race that is set before you..."

(It then continues into a series of questions put to the ordinands; including the promise to "shape your own life, and that of your household, according to the way of Christ").

That expands on what you might find in any one place in Scripture, but I don't see anything there that is not Scriptural.

 

[Episaw]

So, here's the exhortation to deacons from the ordinal (in the rite of the Anglican Church of Australia):

"Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ lived and died as the servant of God.
All who follow him are called to serve God in the world,
setting forth Christ's kingdom through the power of the Spirit.

Christ has called you to the office of deacon.
You are to be an ambassador of Christ,
serving God as you serve others in Jesus' name.
Proclaim the good news of God's love,
so that many may be moved to faith and repentance,
and hearts be opened to do justice,
love mercy, and walk humbly in the presence of God.
Let the transforming love of Jesus be known to all
among whom you live and work.
Strengthen the faithful, teach the young,
search out the careless and indifferent.
Encourage the members of Christ's body by word and example,
ministering among the sick, the needy
and all who are oppressed or in trouble.

Together with your bishop, priest and people,
you are to take your place in public worship,
assist in the administration of the sacraments,
and play your part in the life and councils of the Church.
You are to preach the word of God in the place to which you are licensed,
and to pray and work for peace and justice in the world.

As a deacon, you are to model your life according to the word of God.
Study the Scriptures, reflecting with God's people upon their meaning,
that all may be equipped to live out God's truth in the world.
Put away all that does not make for holiness of life.
Be faithful in prayer, that you may have strength to run the race that is set before you..."

(It then continues into a series of questions put to the ordinands; including the promise to "shape your own life, and that of your household, according to the way of Christ").

That expands on what you might find in any one place in Scripture, but I don't see anything there that is not Scriptural.

Most of it applies to every believer, not just deacons. As it says "ALL who follow him are called to serve God in the world."

I don't see anywhere in scripture where anyone is licensed: I don't see the term priest in the New Testament Church, and I don't see anywhere in scripture where it says you are to preach where you have been licensed.

I have worked in the Anglican church as a volunteer youth leader and I was very much aware of the straight down the line pronouncements that were 100% biblical and beautifully expressed.

Sad to say one of the Parish Church Council locally owns a newsagent shop and sees nothing wrong in selling pornography.

 

[Paidiske]

Licensing is, sadly, a legal necessity in this day and age; especially given compliance requirements around working with children etc.

Priest is just a linguistic contraction of the word presbyter (elder); so relevant to this thread, the deacon is to work alongside the elder/s of the parish or ministry context.

 

[Episaw]

Licensing is, sadly, a legal necessity in this day and age; especially given compliance requirements around working with children etc.

Priest is just a linguistic contraction of the word presbyter (elder); so relevant to this thread, the deacon is to work alongside the elder/s of the parish or ministry context.

As I have had a working with children ticket, licensing is not necessary for this. and I know thousands that are not "licensed" that are doing the Lord's work. In fact, we should all be involved in the Lord's work and the only licensing we need is God's. It is known as an anointing.

If God has given us the requirement of Elders in his church, why on earth do we need to change the name/title?

 

[Paidiske]

In a non-denominational setting with congregational polity, you might not need a license. In a church with an episcopal polity, licensing gives us a system to manage accountability and boundaries; which is a matter of wisdom and prudence.

I disagree that the only license we need is God's. All of us who work in the church need, in some way, authorisation from the church to do that. Ideally the church authorises on recognition of God's call, but there needs to be some way to say that "We recognise that this person is responsible for this ministry/task/whatever," and hold them accountable for that.

"Elder" is a word with a Germanic root; you could argue that that was an unnecessary change when we already had the perfectly good word "presbyter."

 

[Episaw]

In a non-denominational setting with congregational polity, you might not need a license. In a church with an episcopal polity, licensing gives us a system to manage accountability and boundaries; which is a matter of wisdom and prudence.

I disagree that the only license we need is God's. All of us who work in the church need, in some way, authorisation from the church to do that. Ideally the church authorises on recognition of God's call, but there needs to be some way to say that "We recognise that this person is responsible for this ministry/task/whatever," and hold them accountable for that.

"Elder" is a word with a Germanic root; you could argue that that was an unnecessary change when we already had the perfectly good word "presbyter."

You said and I quote "licensing gives us a system to manage accountability and boundaries; which is a matter of wisdom and prudence."

If you have studied the church to the extent that I have from Catholic to non-denominational, what seems to be the overriding factor is not managing accountability but as a measure to control.

This is particularly so in the Pentecostal church, which I have had quite a bit experience of. They go down well-worn paths and anything outside of that is not acceptable.

In one case I was near to being appointed a deputy director of their drug rehabilitation ministry. I found out that anyone who moved into full-time ministry was addressed as Pastor.

I had a problem with that because I was not a pastor and the job did not entail pastoral work. I said no thanks, I will just be me. Job offer withdrawn.

Authorisation and accountability weren't much good to Hudson Taylor. he applied to go to China as a missionary and was totally rejected so he went out on his own steam. As a result, the China Inland Mission came into being later known as the Overseas Missionary Fellowship and now we have millions of Chinese who are Christian. No that is wrong hundreds of millions.

 

[Dave-W]

I'm not a big fan of the wheel, and I was thinking about reinventing it. How's this for a design?

It has been done already. Bizzaro Superman and Lois Lane were driving cars with wheels like that back in the 1960s.

 

[Dave-W]

Authorisation and accountability weren't much good to Hudson Taylor. he applied to go to China as a missionary and was totally rejected so he went out on his own steam. As a result, the China Inland Mission came into being later known as the Overseas Missionary Fellowship and now we have millions of Chinese who are Christian. No that is wrong hundreds of millions.

Yes there are always people who will maintain their integrity and focus. But for every Hudson Tailor there is a Sun Myung Moon, David Koresh or Jim Jones that goes of the rails doctrinally, morally, or otherwise.

 

[HighCherub]

We get some weird and wonderful interpretations of scripture to justify female elders and pastors running the show.

Women can't preach in church anymore than a man can birth a child- they step up to the pulpit and simply speak- their words don't reach God's children.

That may seem harsh, but it's biblical- God has never ordained a woman to preach- He has always chosen patriarchs and male apostles.
Even the angels are males; there is no female authority