BIBLICAL ELDERS

[Hank77]

I agree that you do have to apply the totality of scripture to a subject rather than proof read a text, but that does not mean you ignore large passages of scripture at best or put your own spin on it to make it fit your theology at worst.

I agree. It seems to me that the scripture below speaks of elders of two different types and at least one of these types is to be paid.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

 

[Hank77]

A Jew could not be an Elder under the age of 40. This is revealed in the verses about Elders in the New Testament as they all indicate an older, senior man.

I have read that to sit on the counsel of the Sanhedrin one must be 30 but I can't back that up right now, I'll have to research and find it.

Paul says that he (Saul) voted to condemn the Christians to die.
YLT
Act 26:10 which also I did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I in prison did shut up, from the chief priests having received the authority; they also being put to death, I gave my vote against them,

The transliteration is 'cast against [them] a vote'
Acts 26:10 Interlinear:
That word 'vote' is actually the Greek word for 'pebble'. The Jews used small stones to cast votes. This may be what was meant by 'they gave their lots' in the choosing of Matthias.
At any rate I think it is safe to say the Saul (Paul) had been given a great amount of authority. But then he was schooled man, a Pharisee, a lawyer of the Torah. He may have even been on the council of the Sanhedrin and that would easily account for his having the authority to vote. He definitely had the position of an elder of something, some kind of tribunal.

Saul was a young man.
Act 7:58 and having cast him forth outside of the city, they were stoning him --and the witnesses did put down their garments at the feet of a young man called Saul--

Paul's own experience, of being a young man with great authority, could explain Paul's admonitions to Timothy about Tim's youth and position.

So if we are going to compare the early church to the Jewish customs, which I personally believe is a valid and common sense approach, I just thought I'd throw this info. into the mix. Why, because it shows that youth is not a disqualifier for the position of an elder, even in Jewish customs and law.

 

[Episaw]

I agree. It seems to me that the scripture below speaks of elders of two different types and at least one of these types is to be paid.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

The word "reward" in Greek does not necessarily mean financial gain. it can mean dues paid for work or it can mean rewards bestowed by God, or will be bestowed by God for endeavours. it can also mean punishments.

The important thing is that you never form a doctrine with one verse of scripture and as all the other scriptures relating to this subject show that they are not paid a salary we have to err in their favour.

 

[Episaw]

What is your definition of manage?

I don't have one. I prefer that of the scripture where it talks about in 1 Timothy 3:5 the husband not knowing how to rule his own house and a metaphor for that could be the Seargent Major standing before his troops on parade. He is senior to his troopers and an example to his troopers and is expected to develop them into fine soldiers.

 

[Hank77]

The important thing is that you never form a doctrine with one verse of scripture and as all the other scriptures relating to this subject show that they are not paid a salary we have to err in their favour.

Which I don't. This particular scripture is probably the most obvious though. Just in general I believe that it is clear from other scriptures that a servant is cared for and provided with the essentials of life for whatever amount of time they spend in service.

 

[Hank77]

I don't have one. I prefer that of the scripture where it talks about in 1 Timothy 3:5 the husband not knowing how to rule his own house and a metaphor for that could be the Seargent Major standing before his troops on parade. He is senior to his troopers and an example to his troopers and is expected to develop them into fine soldiers.

So you don't have any hard and fast rules as to what that management looks like and yet you say that in Jewish culture ONLY the husband managed the household. So it would seem that you do have some vision as to what that means in Jewish culture.

 

[RDKirk]

So you don't have any hard and fast rules as to what that management looks like and yet you say that in Jewish culture ONLY the husband managed the household. So it would seem that you do have some vision as to what that means in Jewish culture.

Well, whatever definition we come up with, it's got to take Proverbs 31 into account. That woman was managing her household.

It also has to take Romans 16 into account--the issue of Phoebe. She is most probably the leader of the delegation that carried Paul's letter to the Romans, Paul calls her a "deacon," and further instructs the Roman Christians to help her further in her business.

I think both situations fall under the military example I provided earlier.

Someone up above--it was probably Episaw, made the connection of "authority" with eldership. I suspect there are several distinctions of those terms to be made with regard to how Paul thought of them as he instructed the congregation.

First--to cut to the chase--Paul's connection of eldership and teaching both involved disciplinary authority. Elders held disciplinary authority over the congregation, teachers held disciplinary authority over their disciples. I believe that is the distinction in Paul's head--that women should not have disciplinary authority over men.

There are a lot of ways and roles in which someone might be a "deacon" or a "pastor" without having disciplinary authority, particularly when we understand the military example I gave: When the commander of all the troops places one in authority over another saying, "Obey him or you will answer to me." The commander delegates task-limited instructional authority but retains disciplinary authority to himself.

Sometimes we do the same. A woman may be put in charge of the church nursery. In most cases, she would have the authority to tell any adult--including men--to leave the room if they seem to be hanging around unnecessarily--that's task-instructional authority. If the man resisted, however, she does not have the authority to discipline him. If discipline is going to be done, it will be by elders or some other party.

In Paul's time, a teacher had disciplinary authority over his disciples. Paul would not have allowed a woman to have that kind of authority over a man, but he didn't see a problem with Priscilla expounding the gospel to Apollos--there was no question of disciplinary authority involved.

Nor would there have been a problem with Phoebe being a deacon given the task of transporting Paul's letter to the Romans, even if she were directing the men who accompanied her (which there would have been--she would not have been making that trip alone). That would have been task-instructional authority, not disciplinary authority.

 

[Hank77]

Well, whatever definition we come up with, it's got to take Proverbs 31 into account. That woman was managing her household

Yup

It also has to take Romans 16 into account--the issue of Phoebe. She is most probably the leader of the delegation that carried Paul's letter to the Romans, Paul calls her a "deacon," and further instructs the Roman Christians to help her further in her business.

Yup.

 

[Episaw]

Which I don't. This particular scripture is probably the most obvious though. Just in general I believe that it is clear from other scriptures that a servant is cared for and provided with the essentials of life for whatever amount of time they spend in service.

Obviously, it is not obvious because of the different interpretations put on it.

And I am not talking about servants. This thread is about Biblical Elders so we have to focus on them, not every Tom, Dick and Harry to try and gain a footing in respect of Biblical
Elders.

 

[Episaw]

Well, whatever definition we come up with, it's got to take Proverbs 31 into account. That woman was managing her household.

It also has to take Romans 16 into account--the issue of Phoebe. She is most probably the leader of the delegation that carried Paul's letter to the Romans, Paul calls her a "deacon," and further instructs the Roman Christians to help her further in her business.

I think both situations fall under the military example I provided earlier.

Someone up above--it was probably Episaw, made the connection of "authority" with eldership. I suspect there are several distinctions of those terms to be made with regard to how Paul thought of them as he instructed the congregation.

First--to cut to the chase--Paul's connection of eldership and teaching both involved disciplinary authority. Elders held disciplinary authority over the congregation, teachers held disciplinary authority over their disciples. I believe that is the distinction in Paul's head--that women should not have disciplinary authority over men.

There are a lot of ways and roles in which someone might be a "deacon" or a "pastor" without having disciplinary authority, particularly when we understand the military example I gave: When the commander of all the troops places one in authority over another saying, "Obey him or you will answer to me." The commander delegates task-limited instructional authority but retains disciplinary authority to himself.

Sometimes we do the same. A woman may be put in charge of the church nursery. In most cases, she would have the authority to tell any adult--including men--to leave the room if they seem to be hanging around unnecessarily--that's task-instructional authority. If the man resisted, however, she does not have the authority to discipline him. If discipline is going to be done, it will be by elders or some other party.

In Paul's time, a teacher had disciplinary authority over his disciples. Paul would not have allowed a woman to have that kind of authority over a man, but he didn't see a problem with Priscilla expounding the gospel to Apollos--there was no question of disciplinary authority involved.

Nor would there have been a problem with Phoebe being a deacon given the task of transporting Paul's letter to the Romans, even if she were directing the men who accompanied her (which there would have been--she would not have been making that trip alone). That would have been task-instructional authority, not disciplinary authority.

Task-instructional is an excellent description of the situation. Well done!

 

[Episaw]

So you don't have any hard and fast rules as to what that management looks like and yet you say that in Jewish culture ONLY the husband managed the household. So it would seem that you do have some vision as to what that means in Jewish culture.

I have 1 Timothy 2:5 and what it means in Greek and what it means in Jewish culture.

 

[Hank77]

I have 1 Timothy 2:5 and what it means in Greek and what it means in Jewish culture.

Please address Proverb 31 in the Jewish culture.

 

[Episaw]

Please address Proverb 31 in the Jewish culture.

Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.

That is the only verse I can find in Proverbs 31 that talks about elders and it is referring to the husband.

 

[Episaw]

Just one small point at this stage. Many insist that the Elders in Timothy and Titus were paid a salary because it says that they were to be given double honour.

Now, I didn't say this but some claim that double honour means double pay. The problem with this is that the Greek word for honour in the Elders passage is the same Greek word used when it talks about giving honour to Jesus.

If that is the case, how much do we pay Jesus for the work of salvation?

 

[Hank77]

Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.

That is the only verse I can find in Proverbs 31 that talks about elders and it is referring to the husband.

Not about elders but about managing the Jewish household, as if you didn't know.
You're the one who brought the Jewish culture into the conversation so maybe you should deal with it. Or is it only important when it agrees with your POV?

 

[RDKirk]

Not about elders but about managing the Jewish household, as if you didn't know.
You're the one who brought the Jewish culture into the conversation so maybe you should deal with it. Or is it only important when it agrees with your POV?

I think this has been worked out between Episaw and me.

In Proverbs 31, the husband is indeed an elder and yet his wife does indeed manage his household. Her authority is, however, not replacing his but is delegated from his. She has authority to issue instructions that get the work done according to his intentions. The authority of discipline would still be his.

 

[Episaw]

Not about elders but about managing the Jewish household, as if you didn't know.
You're the one who brought the Jewish culture into the conversation so maybe you should deal with it. Or is it only important when it agrees with your POV?

If you will allow me I will use the bibles that I have and the original Hebrew. Each one says "Elder" not household.

 

[Episaw]

I think this has been worked out between Episaw and me.

In Proverbs 31, the husband is indeed an elder and yet his wife does indeed manage his household. Her authority is, however, not replacing his but is delegated from his. She has authority to issue instructions that get the work done according to his intentions. The authority of discipline would still be his.

And just as an aside. neither in the New Testament or Old Testament is there any concept of the average wife going out to work and earning a salary working for the local Tel Aviv supermarket or the Jerusalem Camel Hire business.

The business of the wife was first and foremost always managing the household and looking after the needs of the husband and children. No one ever sent their children to the child care centre to be looked after so that the wife could go out and get a paid job.

 

[Episaw]

I think this has been worked out between Episaw and me.

In Proverbs 31, the husband is indeed an elder and yet his wife does indeed manage his household. Her authority is, however, not replacing his but is delegated from his. She has authority to issue instructions that get the work done according to his intentions. The authority of discipline would still be his.

RDKirk, I am getting to like your posts more and more as you are doing a very good job filling in the spaces that I leave empty due to my autism and you have a way with words that I do not have.

 

[Episaw]

In the last talk I heard from a female preacher a few weeks ago, she said this. "In Genesis 1:26 it says "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

This verse shows very clearly that both male and female have dominion over the earth so she has as much right to have dominion over men as men have over women.""

Talk about butchering the truth. The word man there in the verse can be interpreted mankind, but what it has got to do with women being church elders escapes me.

When I asked her about the instructions in Timothy and Titus, she said I had to take into consideration all scriptures on the subject (but not those that contradict her take on things it seems).

So let us look at these scriptures which directly deal with the issue without having to read into things that are not there.

1 Timothy 3 starts by saying if a man desires the office of bishop (elder) he desires a good thing.

Note: it has been said that word is not man it is anyone. In the Greek, it says "If any man" so the meaning is clear. Paul is addressing men, not women.

In verse 2 it says " A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife..." Husband is a primary word "anayr" which means "man" so again it is not adressed to women.

Being the husband of one wife has caused some problems for many as they ask what does one wife mean? Does it mean that a single man cannot be an Elder? Does it mean that a divorced man who has remarried cannot be an Elder? Does it mean that a divorced man who becomes an Elder cannot get married again? Does it mean that a man cannot have more than one wife in his marriage?

If I keep it simple and logical I would say he cannot be single. he cannot be a man who has remarried. He can only be married once. He cannot be a woman.

You are free to disagree with me but that is where I stand after consulting many different books on the subject.