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Biblical Creationism and Self Deceit

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MikeEnders

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Scientists know that as well. That's why they try to calibrate it in an attempt to make it more accurate, and even then, they take absolute dates with a pinch of salt.

Calibration has nothing to do with what i linked to as what I linked to was a relatively recent discovery. You clearly do not have a clue about what is being discussed - the fact that rates can change due to physical phenomenon that no one was aware of before.

Anyone can cite sources in an attempt to make them seem to be correct. In order to know the truth, one has to seek the answers for themselves.

then get to it because its clear you haven't if you think 'calibration" had anything to do with what I linked to

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure you said "Carbon dating" before you've edited your post. If you really did say "Carbon dating", then you've changed it to "radioactive dating",.

Now you are just showing yourself to be a barefaced liar because I never wrote Carbon dating but radiometric dating.
 
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Givemeareason

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Are you a child? I ask because I don't debate with children and you are reasoning like one. No one asked anything in the OP of this thread. There is not a single question (if so please show us all the question mark in the thread title) instead it makes claims about all Yecs being full of pride and self deceit and no not all YECs believe each day is 24 hours - they just don't believe its 10 million years either. I haven't asked you to prove anything but that the assertion made in the OP that Genesis one cannot be taken as literal be shown.

However at this point in time if you wish to prove something to me please go ahead and show me the evidence that all the soft tissue being found in fossils can actually survive as long as claimed. Schweitzer's explanation for that shocker doesn't cut it and now they are even finding in tact proteins

http://blog.drwile.com/?p=13504
And please don't turn this moral and ethical debate into another one of those goofy science debates. Your lack of evidence for your own theories are the problem here.
 
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MikeEnders

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I am not engaging in the ridiculous disputes that commonly go on .

then don't. Be lazy and run away because you can't back your point up. However just because you start a thread doesn't mean you get to tell anyone else what they can say in it or in any way control it. If you make a claim simply claiming "its all over the forums" so I don't have to back it up is just lazy and intellectually dishonest as a means of communication.
 
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JustHisKid

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Now you're doing "Ad Honimen", or "To the man" - attacking the arguer instead of actually arguing.

You're also doing "Appeal to Authority", which, while it's not necessarily a logical fallacy on its own, can be if said authority's reasonings or your own are also not sound.

What has "absolute truth" have to do with this debate? If you say the Chapter 1 of Genesis is the absolute truth, then you're essentially saying both the Old Earth Creation ideas and the Young Earth Creation ideas are sound as there's more than one interpretation of that chapter.

It has a lot to do with the debate. However God created the earth, that is how He did it.
 
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MikeEnders

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Now you're doing "Ad Honimen", or "To the man" - attacking the arguer instead of actually arguing.

Not at all. I really do not debate with children. I have found it never goes anywhere they just ignore and run away from the evidence just like you tried to do when shown that your presumptions about Radiometric dating are now being shown to be suspect.
 
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MikeEnders

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Your lack of evidence for your own theories are the problem here.

I have no lack of evidence. SO far I have linked to real science papers that are raising questions about the constant decay rates assumed in radiometric dates and pointed to soft tissue and now proteins being found in fossils that are dubious to be tens of millions old to survive.

What I am gathering now is that you are not up to handling such things because you barely know about them so you would rather just make claims while presenting no evidence for them.
 
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Givemeareason

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I have no lack of evidence. SO far I have linked to real science papers that are raising questions about the constant decay rates assumed in radiometric dates and pointed to soft tissue and now proteins being found in fossils that are dubious to be tens of millions old to survive.

What I am gathering now is that you are not up to handling such things because you barely know about them so you would rather just make claims while presenting no evidence for them.
Do you see where I placed this discussion? It is under Ethics and Morality. I have submitted that Creationism is a deceitful concoction of scientifically related trash with the intent of misleading Christians. I am not interested in the stuff you are throwing out here. There are plenty of other threads where you can debate those things. Here we are judging Creationism as to its intent. So we could go into the ethics of science which might be a good idea. I am sure I could discredit Creationism there as well. But I am not sure how it would be received here. What do you think?
 
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KarjamP

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Calibration has nothing to do with what i linked to as what I linked to was a relatively recent discovery. You clearly do not have a clue about what is being discussed - the fact that rates can change due to physical phenomenon that no one was aware of before.
That source you've mentioned? It was specifically talking about the decay rates of isotopes silicon-32 and chlorine-36 as being variable depending on the solar influx. Although it mentions the elements commonly used within dating method, the source also states that scientists had yet to test their theory on those elements. Read what you're posting properly, next time.

As I said, anyone can quote anything to support one's claims. That's why one must find truth on their own.

Now you are just showing yourself to be a barefaced liar because I never wrote Carbon dating but radiometric dating.
It's easy to accuse others with lying than to actually prove them to be liars.

The edit date of your post states that it was edited at least several minutes after I've posted. Unless you have a screenshot of the post without that there, then you've proven me as being in the wrong. Even then, however, you must account for the fact that I can claim that my memory was faulty there, so I wasn't lying per se.

Not at all. I really do not debate with children. I have found it never goes anywhere they just ignore and run away from the evidence just like you tried to do when shown that your presumptions about Radiometric dating are now being shown to be suspect.
I'm 20 years old. How can I be a child?

Literal interpretation of what you're saying aside, just because you used logical fallacies such as "Ad hominem" doesn't automatically mean that you're right.

And you've also proven my point that YECs try to use logical fallacies in an attempt to make it seem that they've managed to stump their opponents.

Do you see where I placed this discussion? It is under Ethics and Morality. I have submitted that Creationism is a deceitful concoction of scientifically related trash with the intent of misleading Christians. I am not interested in the stuff you are throwing out here. There are plenty of other threads where you can debate those things. Here we are judging Creationism as to its intent. So we could go into the ethics of science which might be a good idea. I am sure I could discredit Creationism there as well. But I am not sure how it would be received here. What do you think?
I can see where you're getting that from - YEC advocates commonly using questionable tactics in an attempt to convince others they're right, whether or not they even know that they're doing it or whether or not they are are even aware they're acting like false prophets when they do so.

Young Earth Creationism, itself, isn't the problem. It's the sheer fact that many of the theory's advocates tend to use questionable tactics that's the problem.
 
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JustHisKid

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Do you see where I placed this discussion? It is under Ethics and Morality. I have submitted that Creationism is a deceitful concoction of scientifically related trash with the intent of misleading Christians. I am not interested in the stuff you are throwing out here. There are plenty of other threads where you can debate those things. Here we are judging Creationism as to its intent. So we could go into the ethics of science which might be a good idea. I am sure I could discredit Creationism there as well. But I am not sure how it would be received here. What do you think?

Who is trying to mislead Christians?
 
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MikeEnders

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Do you see where I placed this discussion? It is under Ethics and Morality.

Doesn't matter where you put it. You still will be required to present evidence of your claims as part of the determination of ethics and morality. You haven't and that is a flop on your part

I have submitted that Creationism is a deceitful concoction of scientifically related trash with the intent of misleading Christians. I am not interested in the stuff you are throwing out here.

Who cares what you are interested in? I don't. Starting a thread doesn't mean you own or control it. Basic common sense and logic - in order to determine intent of deceit you have to show that the party or parties doesn't have legit credible reason to hold their position. You are apparently unable and ill equipped to do that so your premise fails. Begging that you shouldn't have to back up your point and prove it won't work in any adult conversation.
 
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MikeEnders

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Ironically, other Christians, whether they know it or not. To be specific, Young Earth Creation advocates.

great then show how they have deceived other Christians even though you have no explanation for how soft tissue and now proteins have survive for tens of millions of years or.......you can just run away again and claim you don't have to answer (because you can't).
 
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KarjamP

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Doesn't matter where you put it. You still will be required to present evidence of your claims as part of the determination of ethics and morality. You haven't and that is a flop on your part
I can say the exact same thing as you - you have yet to present proper evidence of your claims as part of the determination of ethics and morality. You haven't and that is a flop on your part.

The one source that you've provided? As I said, if one were to read it properly, they'd find out it was talking about two specific isotopes, none of which are used for dating. Therefore, it's not proper evidence.

Even if it was, however, that doesn't automatically mean earth's as young as Young Earth Creationists claim. The source would only prove radioactive dating methods to be inaccurate.
 
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KarjamP

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great then show how they have deceived other Christians even though you have no explanation for how soft tissue and now proteins have survive for tens of millions of years or.......you can just run away again and claim you don't have to answer (because you can't).
http://listverse.com/2008/02/19/top-15-misconceptions-about-evolution/

It may not explain away how soft tissue and proteins can survive for that long, but it does prove that the science behind biological evolution and related is a lot more complicated than many people may realize (including you).
 
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JustHisKid

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Ironically, other Christians, whether they know it or not. To be specific, Young Earth Creation advocates.

What gain is there for these YECers to deceive other Christians? Regardless of how old the earth is, they are all Christians and still going to heaven, so what would be the point?
 
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KarjamP

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What gain is there for these YECers to deceive other Christians? Regardless of how old the earth is, they are all Christians and still going to heaven, so what would be the point?
The point is, many are apparently so arrogant, they believe that their beliefs is the only one that's true. Therefore, like what Mike Enders seems to be doing to me, they try to force their beliefs onto others through whatever means necessarily.
 
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Givemeareason

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Doesn't matter where you put it. You still will be required to present evidence of your claims as part of the determination of ethics and morality. You haven't and that is a flop on your part



Who cares what you are interested in? I don't. Starting a thread doesn't mean you own or control it. Basic common sense and logic - in order to determine intent of deceit you have to show that the party or parties doesn't have legit credible reason to hold their position. You are apparently unable and ill equipped to do that so your premise fails. Begging that you shouldn't have to back up your point and prove it won't work in any adult conversation.

Somewhat agreed. But there is a lot more to science than just having a reason to hold a position. Since we are examining Creationism let's first see if its reason is legitimate in scientific terms. And just so I don't start misrepresenting Creationism can you state why it exists, is it a theory, and what is its purpose? Or whatever else it is from your viewpoint? Let's not get into supporting evidence just yet.
 
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JustHisKid

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The point is, many are apparently so arrogant, they believe that their beliefs is the only one that's true. Therefore, like what Mike Enders seems to be doing to me, they try to force their beliefs onto others through whatever means necessarily.

Only one belief is in fact true. Someone believes the truth. It could be the YECers.
 
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KarjamP

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Only one belief is in fact true. Someone believes the truth. It could be the YECers.
Or it could be none of us.

Remember that we know nothing of the beginning times other than scientific theories (which may or may not be correct) and what the bible says.
 
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MikeEnders

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That source you've mentioned? It was specifically talking about the decay rates of isotopes silicon-32 and chlorine-36 as being variable depending on the solar influx. Although it mentions the elements commonly used within dating method, the source also states that scientists had yet to test their theory on those elements. Read what you're posting properly, next time.

Thats right. So happy you finally stopped being so incredibly lazy and read it to see it has nothing to do with calibration. And yes young padawah it is being researched which is why I said that was just one paper. As long as we are finding that the rates are variable we cannot claim it is a constant. Apparently the point went straight over your head

The edit date of your post states that it was edited at least several minutes after I've posted.

I edit a lot of my posts for typos and spelling after. That makes no point. I said nothing about Carbon dating and for you to claim I almost certainly dead is just lying

And you've also proven my point that YECs try to use logical fallacies in an attempt to make it seem that they've managed to stump their opponents.

I asked if you were a child because you wrote and write like one and I have had wasted time in the past learning afterwards that the person was one. I don;t need to use any tactics to stump you. I posted links you have no answer for and asking you about soft tissue and proteins in fossils you have no answer for. If you are stumped blame yourself.

All of this "creationists do this" and creationists do that is just what is known as handwaving. You can't back your point up with any thing solid , can't answer links and questions put to you so you cheaply and lazily claim your inability to answer should be overlooked because its just a tactic.

Cheap tactic in and of itself. Take a bow.
 
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