Bible stories, truth or fiction?

[Paulomycin]

What about God's style?

What do you mean by "style?"

 

[cloudyday2]

What do you mean by "style?"

In many Christian theologies, God is a person with personality traits - i.e. style.

 

[jayem]

Some bible stories seem to be so outrageous that for many people they are just not credible.
There are those however who believe that every word of the bible is true and therefore every event recorded in that book is true.
One such story is that of Samson and his fight with the Philistines when he killed 1000 of them using nothing more than the jaw bone of an ass.
Do any of our CF posters really believe this event actually happened?
I have posted a link showing a clip from the Samson movie and his fight with the Philistines.
You could be excused for thinking it was a clip from The Incredible Hulk, and I could only begin to believe it was a true story if the Philistines were as inept at soldiering as the movie made them out to be.

The Bible is like other ancient writings. It’s a mixture. There is some historical fact (largely as regards places, some persons, and situations.) But it’s combined with copious amounts of fable, folklore, fantasy, fallacy, and fabrication. An example would be Homer’s Iliad. Generally believed to date from the 8th century BC. Archeological evidence proves there are ruins of several ancient cities in western Turkey (once known as Asia Minor) where Troy would have been located. These ruins are layered one on top of another. One layer showed evidence of widespread fire damage. It’s certainly plausible that the city of Troy really existed. It lost a war with the Peloponnesian Greeks, and was sacked and burned. Just as Homer records. But that doesn’t mean that—as Homer also writes—the god Apollo aided the Trojans by shooting arrows of plague into the Greek camps. Or that Achilles was invulnerable except for his left heel. And was killed only when the Trojan prince Paris shot him in that heel with a poisoned arrow.

 

[Paulomycin]

In many Christian theologies, God is a person with personality traits - i.e. style.

Are you asking if Samson was a reflection of God's personality traits? No. He was more Hancock than Superman.

 

[cloudyday2]

Are you asking if Samson was a reflection of God's personality traits? No. He was more Hancock than Superman.

Close... More precisely, I'm asking if the God who parted the Red Sea under Moses or healed the blind under Jesus would empower a super strong and super stupid "hero" to catch hundreds of foxes, tie their tails together, etc.

It's not the same style of miracles. Samson seems to belong in a book of Greek mythology rather than in the Bible. There is no mention of Samson's devotion to God for example. Normally the Bible heroes get their strength from prayer and righteousness, but Samson gets his strength from growing his hair long. The length of Samson's hair seems to be unrelated to Samson's devotion to God, yet cutting Samson's hair leaves him weak. The long hair should be merely an outward consequence of righteousness such that cutting Samson's hair should not affect his righteousness and should not weaken him. Instead the hair becomes the key explanation for Samson's strength rather than his devotion to God.

 

[Paulomycin]

Close... More precisely, I'm asking if the God who parted the Red Sea under Moses or healed the blind under Jesus would empower a super strong and super stupid "hero" to catch hundreds of foxes, tie their tails together, etc.

Yes. Throughout scripture, God chooses seriously flawed sinners. Even stupid ones.

". . .not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;" - 1 Corinthians 1:26-27

I can also compare the foxes to modern-day military working dogs trained to risk their lives in a soldier's place. Animals are continually and deliberately placed at-risk in military warfare.

Causes of Death in Military Working Dogs During Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001–2013

'Special breed of courageous': Delta Force operator hails valor of military dog wounded in Baghdadi raid

It's not the same style of miracles.

What "one style" of miracles is God limited to?

Samson seems to belong in a book of Greek mythology rather than in the Bible. There is no mention of Samson's devotion to God for example.

Then you must not have read the story. He was devoted at birth, but often failed to obey his obligations.

Judges 16:17 - that [Samson] told her all his heart, and said to her, “No razor has ever come upon my head, for I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother’s womb."

In the end, Samson repented. . .

Judges 16:28 - Then Samson called to the Lord, saying, “O Lord God, remember me, I pray! Strengthen me, I pray, just this once, O God, that I may with one blow take vengeance on the Philistines for my two eyes!”

The entire theme of the story is one of continual disobedience to both God's law and his own Nazirite vow, but God utilizing Samson for his glory and to fulfill Samson's purpose in delivering Israel, "So the dead that he killed at his death were more than he had killed in his life."

Thus, it is fully compatible with all the other ways God used certain individuals to deliver His people.

 

[keith99]

If the Samson story is real and he ruturned today you can bet those who believe it would make him cut his hair before he would be welcome in their Church!

 

[cloudyday2]

Yes. Throughout scripture, God chooses seriously flawed sinners. Even stupid ones.

". . .not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;" - 1 Corinthians 1:26-27

I can also compare the foxes to modern-day military working dogs trained to risk their lives in a soldier's place. Animals are continually and deliberately placed at-risk in military warfare.

Causes of Death in Military Working Dogs During Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001–2013

'Special breed of courageous': Delta Force operator hails valor of military dog wounded in Baghdadi raid



What "one style" of miracles is God limited to?



Then you must not have read the story. He was devoted at birth, but often failed to obey his obligations.

Judges 16:17 - that [Samson] told her all his heart, and said to her, “No razor has ever come upon my head, for I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother’s womb."

In the end, Samson repented. . .

Judges 16:28 - Then Samson called to the Lord, saying, “O Lord God, remember me, I pray! Strengthen me, I pray, just this once, O God, that I may with one blow take vengeance on the Philistines for my two eyes!”

The entire theme of the story is one of continual disobedience to both God's law and his own Nazirite vow, but God utilizing Samson for his glory and to fulfill Samson's purpose in delivering Israel, "So the dead that he killed at his death were more than he had killed in his life."

Thus, it is fully compatible with all the other ways God used certain individuals to deliver His people.

I don't agree, but I did want to mention the "bat bomb" if you haven't heard of that. (It goes along with what you linked about military dogs and Samson's arsonist foxes
Bat bomb

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Bible is like other ancient writings. It’s a mixture. There is some historical fact (largely as regards places, some persons, and situations.) But it’s combined with copious amounts of fable, folklore, fantasy, fallacy, and fabrication. An example would be Homer’s Iliad. Generally believed to date from the 8th century BC. Archeological evidence proves there are ruins of several ancient cities in western Turkey (once known as Asia Minor) where Troy would have been located. These ruins are layered one on top of another. One layer showed evidence of widespread fire damage. It’s certainly plausible that the city of Troy really existed. It lost a war with the Peloponnesian Greeks, and was sacked and burned. Just as Homer records. But that doesn’t mean that—as Homer also writes—the god Apollo aided the Trojans by shooting arrows of plague into the Greek camps. Or that Achilles was invulnerable except for his left heel. And was killed only when the Trojan prince Paris shot him in that heel with a poisoned arrow.

Interesting, jayem. And which modern scholar of Historiography did you cull this information from?

 

[Paulomycin]

I don't agree,

That's okay. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me. I only care about the why.

. . .but I did want to mention the "bat bomb" if you haven't heard of that. (It goes along with what you linked about military dogs and Samson's arsonist foxes
Bat bomb

Yep. Throw that one on the list too.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Judges 15
New International Version
Samson’s Vengeance on the Philistines
15 Later on, at the time of wheat harvest, Samson took a young goat and went to visit his wife. He said, “I’m going to my wife’s room.” But her father would not let him go in.

2 “I was so sure you hated her,” he said, “that I gave her to your companion. Isn’t her younger sister more attractive? Take her instead.”

3 Samson said to them, “This time I have a right to get even with the Philistines; I will really harm them.” 4 So he went out and caught three hundred foxes and tied them tail to tail in pairs. He then fastened a torch to every pair of tails, 5 lit the torches and let the foxes loose in the standing grain of the Philistines. He burned up the shocks and standing grain, together with the vineyards and olive groves.

6 When the Philistines asked, “Who did this?” they were told, “Samson, the Timnite’s son-in-law, because his wife was given to his companion.”

So the Philistines went up and burned her and her father to death. 7 Samson said to them, “Since you’ve acted like this, I swear that I won’t stop until I get my revenge on you.” 8 He attacked them viciously and slaughtered many of them. Then he went down and stayed in a cave in the rock of Etam.

9 The Philistines went up and camped in Judah, spreading out near Lehi. 10 The people of Judah asked, “Why have you come to fight us?”

“We have come to take Samson prisoner,” they answered, “to do to him as he did to us.”

11 Then three thousand men from Judah went down to the cave in the rock of Etam and said to Samson, “Don’t you realize that the Philistines are rulers over us? What have you done to us?”

He answered, “I merely did to them what they did to me.”

12 They said to him, “We’ve come to tie you up and hand you over to the Philistines.”

Samson said, “Swear to me that you won’t kill me yourselves.”

13 “Agreed,” they answered. “We will only tie you up and hand you over to them. We will not kill you.” So they bound him with two new ropes and led him up from the rock. 14 As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands. 15 Finding a fresh jawbone of a donkey, he grabbed it and struck down a thousand men.

16 Then Samson said,

“With a donkey’s jawbone
I have made donkeys of them.[a]
With a donkey’s jawbone
I have killed a thousand men.”

17 When he finished speaking, he threw away the jawbone; and the place was called Ramath Lehi.

18 Because he was very thirsty, he cried out to the Lord, “You have given your servant this great victory. Must I now die of thirst and fall into the hands of the uncircumcised?” 19 Then God opened up the hollow place in Lehi, and water came out of it. When Samson drank, his strength returned and he revived. So the spring was called En Hakkore,[c] and it is still there in Lehi.

20 Samson led[d] Israel for twenty years in the days of the Philistines.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Around 1970 when I was in he USAF we thought that we made a time machine, apparently, we sent back two bombs, one called fox trout and the other named Jack's Jaw. We assumed it did not work, that someone took the two bombs off the device when we went home. When we came back in the next morning the device was on and the bombs were gone. So, we assumed it did not work. Now, where did we put that time machine?

I think Samson, told the story with a little too much wine.

 

[jayem]

Interesting, jayem. And which modern scholar of Historiography did you cull this information from?

The Iliad analogy is my own. But it’s based on the historical-critical approach to Bible study. Which has been around for a very long time. I encountered it in a elective religion/Bible course as a college undergrad. I attended a university which had a theology school affiliated with the United Methodist Church. Our instructor was a theology professor, who taught Biblical hermeneutics from the historical-critical standpoint. I enjoyed the course very much. I majored in psychology (and was pre-med.) But I took 2 elective religion courses because I know it’s a major influence on human behavior.

Instead of a textbook, our prof gave us handouts with various references for reading. But I can recommend 2 non-technical books that discuss the historical-critical approach to understanding the Bible:

Rescuing Scripture from Fundamentalism, by retired Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong

The Good Book, by the late Harvard Divinity School professor Peter Gomes.

 

[JohnClay]

Some bible stories seem to be so outrageous that for many people they are just not credible.
There are those however who believe that every word of the bible is true and therefore every event recorded in that book is true.
One such story is that of Samson and his fight with the Philistines when he killed 1000 of them using nothing more than the jaw bone of an ass.....

BTW I created a computer game that includes this....
Brutal Bible Blood Baths
You can see a preview of that level in the site's embedded video...
The prototype involves top-down gameplay but the final game would be 3D....
In your video Samson cheated a bit using a spear.... but I guess that is to stop it from being so boring....

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Iliad analogy is my own. But it’s based on the historical-critical approach to Bible study. Which has been around for a very long time. I encountered it in a elective religion/Bible course as a college undergrad. I attended a university which had a theology school affiliated with the United Methodist Church. Our instructor was a theology professor, who taught Biblical hermeneutics from the historical-critical standpoint. I enjoyed the course very much. I majored in psychology (and was pre-med.) But I took 2 elective religion courses because I know it’s a major influence on human behavior.

Instead of a textbook, our prof gave us handouts with various references for reading. But I can recommend 2 non-technical books that discuss the historical-critical approach to understanding the Bible:

Rescuing Scripture from Fundamentalism, by retired Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong

The Good Book, by the late Harvard Divinity School professor Peter Gomes.

Thanks for the info, jayem. I'm already familiar with the comparative Bible study approaches, but I was wondering from where you specifically drew the idea that the Bible is "just like" other religions. In my university studies, I found similarities between the Bible and some ANE, Greek religious writings, but there are also some differences in conceptual structures. The Bible is quite different than the various Hindu scriptures or those of Buddhism or Taosim; it is also different than early and later middle ages writings, like the Qu'ran. And if this is the case, we might be careful in qualifying just how "similar" we think the Bible really is to the sacred writ of other world religions.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your source information. Your transparency on that account is appreciated!

 

[Lion IRC]

I would certainly be skeptical of Samson's feats if I didn't have the additional background information that he had supernatural assistance.

I think atheists should stop wondering whether supernatural beings can do stuff we can't do.

 

[Pommer]

Okay enough with Samson.
Let’s move onto
Joshua 10:12-15

12 Then spake Joshua to Jehovah in the day when Jehovah delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; And thou, Moon, in the valley of Aijalon.

13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, Until the nation had avenged themselves of their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that Jehovah hearkened unto the voice of a man: for Jehovah fought for Israel.

15 And Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, unto the camp to Gilgal

The sun didn’t go down for a full day?
You gonna stand by that one, too?

 

[Lion IRC]

Um...no.
God can stand by that one. It's His handiwork.
You gonna quibble with Him about what He can and can't do?

 

[Paulomycin]

Okay enough with Samson.
Let’s move onto
Joshua 10:12-15


The sun didn’t go down for a full day?
You gonna stand by that one, too?

Yes. Omnipotence is capable of really unusual things. God sovereignly suspends any natural order He wishes. The central character of the entire book is an omnipotent being. You can't read the book through the bias of naturalism or uniformitarianism. You'll only choke on it.

And NASA still refers to "sunrise" and "sunset." It's about POV.

 

[Tom 1]

Some bible stories seem to be so outrageous that for many people they are just not credible.
There are those however who believe that every word of the bible is true and therefore every event recorded in that book is true.
One such story is that of Samson and his fight with the Philistines when he killed 1000 of them using nothing more than the jaw bone of an ass.
Do any of our CF posters really believe this event actually happened?
I have posted a link showing a clip from the Samson movie and his fight with the Philistines.
You could be excused for thinking it was a clip from The Incredible Hulk, and I could only begin to believe it was a true story if the Philistines were as inept at soldiering as the movie made them out to be.

A better question would be about the purpose of stories of this kind, this wasn’t written to point out wow Samson was so hard. Some people see irony in Samson’s story, however it’s interpreted tho like everything else in the OT it’s mainly about the identity and position in the world of Israel.

That said, a very skilled fighter with extraordinary stamina (such people exist) can take on a huge number of inferior fighters who don’t fight well as a group. A skilled samurai for example. Also, large numbers in the OT (and in any ancient world literature) are rarely if ever meant literally, 1,000 here just means ‘a lot’. Anything above small numbers would have been an abstraction to all but a tiny number of the people at the time the story was written.